Consequence for bad attitude?

[liberal_chick]

Dh and I are having a bit of trouble coming up with how we want to deal with our 4 y/o's bad attitude.

Ds has always been free to express his opinion to us, no matter what that opinion is. However, since ds2's arrival, he's been throwing more attitude than a 13 year old girl. The things he's saying are laced with attitude and just generally not said in a very nice way.

Dh thinks that we need to start removing "privelages" (as dh calls them) when he acts that way, like playing on the computer or watching his Thomas DVD.

I don't know what we should do, but I'm a very "make the consequence fit the crime" type of mama, so taking away a viewing of his DVD only makes sense to me if his transgression somehow relates to the viewing of said DVD. If he's slinging attitude b/c he wants cake before dinner, that consequence doesn't make sense to me.

I've asked dh if he's talked to ds about the appropriate way to express himself, and he said he has. I think ds is still very young to be able to think about and change the way he speaks before he does it. He still seems very impulse driven to me.

Dh thinks I always say, "but he's only 2 (or 3 or 4)!" to excuse him of his behavior.

WDYT?

[Snuzzmom]

Can you be more specific about what "attitude" means in this case? I'm not sure what he's doing that is upsetting to you. It sounds like he's speaking to you rudely, maybe?

[mamazee]

He's just barely turned 4, right? And there's a brand new baby in the house? I'd cut him some slack for both reasons. First, kids learn to speak like little adults before they learn the social graces of adults. Think in terms of "teach" rather than "punish". "A nicer way to ask for that is . . . " And all kids have a hard time after the birth of a new baby. We've been going through that here too.

[LynnS6]

I think it might be helpful to separate 'attitude' from 'behavior'. I sure hope no one ever punishes me for bad attitude because sometimes my attitude is less than stellar. (In fact, I'm busy NOT grading papers right now because my attitude about them sucks .)

BUT I think age 4 is old enough to begin to have a few expectations for polite behavior. We've got a 5 year old with a major 'attitude'. She's free to have her attitude, she's not free to be rude about it.

So, when she says something rude, we ask her to rephrase. We started this about 3 or 3 1/2 with her (note: the child is also highly verbal, so this won't work with all 3 year olds). First, it was direct instruction. So if she said "Give me some milk!" we responded: "That sounds rude. Please ask saying "can I have some milk please?" Sometimes it was the tone of voice that was a problem and so I would say "please say that in a polite voice."

After awhile, it became "that sounds rude. Please say it another way." We're down to "That sounds rude." and she usually modifies her request.

note though that even highly verbal 4-5 year olds have a limited repertoire of ways they can modify an utterance. Developmentally, they're just not able to control the same range of structures in terms of politeness that adults do. So, the other night, dd looked at dh and said "I order you to give me more rice!" A bit shocked, I looked at her and said "that's rude!" She dutifully modified her statement to: "I order you to give me rice, please!"

And then I remembered that every year, I talk to my students in language development about the stage of pragmatic development where kids are really only able to modify utterances for politeness by adding please. Dd just didn't GET that "I order you to..." was rude. She'd learned a new language structure (performatives) and was trying it out. In her mind: To make it more polite, you add please. It'll be a couple of years before she's able to switch her 'order' to a 'question', which is what is considered a polite way to make a request in our culture. (Her older brother, who is 8, got that her modification was funny and woudl have been able to modify the structure.)

I digress... my bottom line is: The natural consequence of being rude is that people don't want to help you or be around you. Politeness IS an important social skill. BUT it's one that takes a long time, and one that most 4 year olds only understand tenuously.

The logical consequence in our house is that you're asked to rephrase your utterance to be more polite. I WILL explain to my kids "when you talk to me like that, I don't want to help you/play with you/get what you want". I can't see how taking away TV/DVD is going to help this. But, I also can't see just letting slide completely.

[sbrinton]

In most cases, we respond to a rude, crude boy attitude (we also have a 4 year old!) by giving him a second chance. Instead of saying "give me juice" we ask him to say, "Mama, may I please have some juice?" I see this as a good opportunity to teach him.

We will also remove him from a situation if he is being inappropriate. For example, if we're in a store and he's demanding we buy something, we will leave. Likewise, if he's being rude to his teachers and goofing off with other kids at school, we'll take him out of the classroom to calm down and think about what is kind and respectful.

We are Christians, so we often go back to a verse in the Bible (1 Corinthians 13:4-7) that talks about what love is. Part of the verse says love "is not rude".

So if he is being rude I'll ask him the following questions:
"Does mommy love you?" - Yes
"Do you love mommy?" - Yes
"Is love rude?" - No (He knows this answer by now)
This is simple and it helps him to see that he is not loving me when he is rude.

Even if you are not a Christian or don't typically read the Bible, this verse is one that could be helpful in teaching your kids that love means more than "loving ice cream" or the equivalent.

[MammaV]

I'd use each opportunity to teach him the correct or expected way to do things. Taking away a movie doesn't teach that, neither does loosing a privledge. How does less computer time give you better table manners or help you share or create less yelling? Model how you want him to behave, Set the expectation with clear concise instructions, catch him when he does it on his own and reinforce with positive words that you see he's learning. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of patience, but it's nice to have the child self regulate their tone and requests because they have self pride in doing the right thing.

Second, third and fourth chances to change the way a request is made is sometimes necessary, so it time alone to think about kinder, softer more appropriate ways to request or express opinions. You'll be surprised at their solutions!

[liberal_chick]

Well, being rude is part of the problem. It isn't what he's saying, its how he's saying it, if that makes sense.

For example, we're hearing a lot of "That's not fair!" while he either hits at the air or kicks his foot. If he just said "That's not fair!" it'd be no big deal. But its the way he says it (which is hard to convey through the computer, but if I had to type it it'd probably look like "THAT'S not FAIR!!!!!") coupled with the physical motion (which is always directed at dh or I but he never actually hits or kicks us).

I'm certainly inclined to give him tons of leeway b/c of the new baby and his age, but dh is certainly not. I'm trying to come up with something that makes us both happy. I don't think it should be unadressed, but I'm not comfortable with the way dh wants to handle it either.

[liberal_chick]

Originally Posted by MammaV

I'd use each opportunity to teach him the correct or expected way to do things. Taking away a movie doesn't teach that, neither does loosing a privledge. How does less computer time give you better table manners or help you share or create less yelling? Model how you want him to behave, Set the expectation with clear concise instructions, catch him when he does it on his own and reinforce with positive words that you see he's learning. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of patience, but it's nice to have the child self regulate their tone and requests because they have self pride in doing the right thing.

Second, third and fourth chances to change the way a request is made is sometimes necessary, so it time alone to think about kinder, softer more appropriate ways to request or express opinions. You'll be surprised at their solutions!

ITA, and if left to my own devices that's exactly how I'd do it. When I'm home with him all day, we do lots of discussing and I give him examples of how to rephrase and multiple chances to do so. Dh just is not on that page with me at all. *sigh*

[MammaV]

if "it's just not fair" is a theme song right now, I'd say he needs a lot more attention. If DH has the time to do some heavy one on one time with him and watch the baby 30-60 minutes in the evening so that you and DS can snuggle, read and talk, you'll probably see a huge improvement. DS is finding his place in a new family of 4. He's used to having two parents address his needs, now he's probably down to a 1/2 a parent(time wise, patience wise etc). He probably has to wait a lot more for his requests and there might be expectations that he behave and act in a way he isn't used to. His behavior sounds pretty normal to the adjusting he's having to do. He needs your help and DH's help to find his place in the family.

[Cheshire]

Our son just turned 5. This time last year at 4 he was expecting a new baby brother in August. Our second son died as a newborn so we've had lots of grief this year (at 4 kids get this so deeply - more than I expected). Now, at 5, he is expecting a new baby sister in August. He is starting to go through some of the same behaviors that he did last year anticipating a new baby and also worrying about if this baby will die or not.

He's going through a lot. Your son is also going through a lot and trying to change his behavior without addressing why he's acting that way won't fix it. It will just force him to push down his emotions and act the way you want him to. And, from what you've written it sounds like that is the last thing you want.

For our DS we've found that if we simply agree (i.e. "yes, it's not fair") with him and remind him that his behavior is not kind or polite or cooperative and give him the opportunity for a re'do he gets over it pretty quickly. By giving him the chance for a re-do without making a big deal out of his outburst he doesn't feel put on the spot and it's easier for him to change his actions rather than feeling defensive about it.

If he keeps it up then we ask him to come sit with us and we ask him what's really going on. Why does he feel the need to be so angry or rude? Sometimes he just needs to be close to us to help himself calm down. Sometimes he just needs to get his feelings out and we help him find a more appropriate way to express himself.

If it's been a big outburst then after he has calmed down we sit and talk about other ways he could have handled himself. We ask him how he would feel if we treated him that way, etc.

It has been a journey this year but he is very responsive to our kindness and he's grown so much emotionally. We're so proud when he is able to find appropriate ways to express himself. It is worth the extra effort to see him mature this way.

Remember, for kids it's all about repetition, repetition, repetition for things to sink in. They learn how to calm themselves and handle their own powerful emotions by watching us.

Best wishes.