Unconditional Parenting support thread - Page 3

[LCBMAX]

Originally Posted by krystyn33

Finding like-minded mamas to spend time with or at least for commiseration & reinforcement can be a big help. And once you see them start learning without that coercion your trust in the process will be fortified.

Great to read your experience and the light hearted way you are approaching it. This idea of having like-minded mamas around is really key for me. Luckily one other mom in our playgroup is interested in the book, and I think the others will be as they hear me natter on more about the ideas. I have learned so much from my co-mamas already.

[St. Margaret]

Subbing!

I adore this book, and most of Kohn's writings. I feel like, once you see parenting and children in this light, it's impossible to go back and view things the "traditional" discipline way again. I do need to remind myself to question a lot of the habits I do just from seeing my mom at her home daycare with a bunch of kids, or from my educational training, or just TV and etc. But I love the spirit of this book. It awakened within me exactly what I really wanted to do as a parent.

And I find it really informs my understanding of my DD. I can totally read situations easily now-- I can see that she is feeling insecure and needs a little time to cuddle and reaffirm that mommy loves her, and I can give her that and then we can all move on happily, instead of getting bogged down "dealing with" "behavior." It's amazing how it clicks, if you keep reminding yourself to keep your eyes open.

[Jennbee]

I've been meaning to finish reading the UP book. When I first started reading it, it really seemed to click with me and how I wanted to parent. That was a couple of years ago and then we had our second child. How we've been parenting this past year isn't how I want to continue being a parent. I'm going to search for my book and try to finish reading it while on vacation next week.

[kimmypoo]

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[AmieV]

Thanks to whoever posted the summary of the book. I read about the first 2/3, then flipped back to the principles and skimmed that, and honestly got completely frustrated with how few actual practical advice there was. I was in the thick of some seriously crazy tantrums from my almost 3yo and I probably would have punched Alfie Kohn in the face if I'd had the chance.

But, that said...I so believe in all of what I actually read (and it seems like a lot since that summary was totally familiar, so that's good). I feel like my mom was a totally conditional parent, and I was completely a "good girl" but now I wonder how much of that was fear based vs. my personality. It's funny but reading UP actually makes me worry about how well-behaved my oldest DD is at preschool (I also read an old Mothering article the other day about girls feeling like they can't ever rock the boat, and that worries me too). I want her to know we'll love her no matter what, because I feel like even now, at 30 years old, my mom is finally proud of me because I chose to do something she "approves" of, whereas all of my other accomplishments were meaningless in her eyes. It's silly and I want my girls to know I will love them whether they're scholars or artists, or people happy working a dead end retail job. I just want them to be happy and loved and I want them to know that.

This totally resonated with me:

"Anyway, what bothered me most was my own fear. Fear that I didnt' know how to handle the situation in a loving caring way. I could see how my parents would treat us - they wanted us to stop what we were doing. THey definately would not have seen this as an acceptable way to act."

When my middle DD started having the tantrums, I myself started having panic attacks. I didn't know what to DO and I was so afraid of what would happen the next time she had one. I lost my temper on more than a few occasions and I ignored her on others and that never worked. It became highly evident that she herself was afraid of those emotions too and needed to know we were there for her. She had one just today, in the middle of open gym with other parents and teachers everywhere and I am proud to say I had no fear, and I was able to just hold her and be there for her. I did restrain her from going out to the area where the stuff had just frustrated her, but finally she relaxed and made me take my arms off of her but just sat. Then she started doing her deep breathing and her teacher brought over some bubbles and you could just see her poor little self sort of crumble out of exhaustion. It's a lot to be 3, and it's a lot to support it. It's so much like being a doula it's weird. There's nothing I can DO to make it better, or make it stop, I can just be there and that's just what she needs. I almost started crying myself when it was over because it's just so intense. She's very smart and compassionate but man, when she's in that state she's difficult to like. But I feel like I'm learning so much and becoming a stronger parent because of how she is. I think it's the crux of UP to be able to accept your child even in their worst moments, because I know my mom would have advised taking her to the bathroom for a swift spanking. I apparently never got a spanking as a child because I was so good...but I wonder if I was so good because of fear?

Anyway, then later this evening she delivered a terrible beatdown on her baby sister and I completely lost my temper and UP went fully and completely out the window and I now need to go downstairs and apologize and put her to bed and mend our relationship since I actually called her a "terrible big sister". I have to hope that the good moments outweigh the bad because it's incredibly difficult.

Long story short, I'm subbing!

[AngelBee]

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[Surfacing]

Originally Posted by AmieV

When my middle DD started having the tantrums, I myself started having panic attacks. I didn't know what to DO and I was so afraid of what would happen the next time she had one. I lost my temper on more than a few occasions and I ignored her on others and that never worked. It became highly evident that she herself was afraid of those emotions too and needed to know we were there for her. She had one just today, in the middle of open gym with other parents and teachers everywhere and I am proud to say I had no fear, and I was able to just hold her and be there for her. I did restrain her from going out to the area where the stuff had just frustrated her, but finally she relaxed and made me take my arms off of her but just sat. Then she started doing her deep breathing and her teacher brought over some bubbles and you could just see her poor little self sort of crumble out of exhaustion. It's a lot to be 3, and it's a lot to support it. It's so much like being a doula it's weird. There's nothing I can DO to make it better, or make it stop, I can just be there and that's just what she needs. I almost started crying myself when it was over because it's just so intense. She's very smart and compassionate but man, when she's in that state she's difficult to like. But I feel like I'm learning so much and becoming a stronger parent because of how she is. I think it's the crux of UP to be able to accept your child even in their worst moments, because I know my mom would have advised taking her to the bathroom for a swift spanking. I apparently never got a spanking as a child because I was so good...but I wonder if I was so good because of fear?

Anyway, then later this evening she delivered a terrible beatdown on her baby sister and I completely lost my temper and UP went fully and completely out the window and I now need to go downstairs and apologize and put her to bed and mend our relationship since I actually called her a "terrible big sister". I have to hope that the good moments outweigh the bad because it's incredibly difficult.

I can relate so much to what you wrote here.

And I too found becoming a doula made me a better mother, strangely. I had not expected it but it was a happy surprise.

[mckennasmomma]

I'm really loving UP. I'm on chapter 4 and honestly it is opening my mind in such huge ways. I find myself often disagreeing at first with any given statement, then as I read through the paragraph it starts to make perfect sense and by the end of the argument I'm 100% on board. I'm looking forward to plugging my way through it (opportunities to read are pretty short these days!) and to getting to the more concrete info, although from what everyone says it doesn't have much of that. Like a PP said, that is both good and bad in my mind.

I'm looking forward also to more "real life" stories and how you all have handled them, for better or for worse, and what you learned from it. DD is only 10 months old, so I doubt I will have much to contribute there for a while. But I also believe that now is when those building blocks are laid so I'm so glad I found this information early on in motherhood.

[OGirlieMama]

Amie, I can totally relate to feeling so good about being able to help her through the internal conflict (tantrum) in a UP-friendly way, and then totally losing it completely when the conflict is external (hitting/bitting her sister). I find that is my #1 trigger for going all Yelly Nelly - when one of them hurts her sister. (#2 is refusing to brush their teeth and/or get in bed, but I digress...)

That's a topic I'd love to talk about more - how to handle the conflict between them when it gets physical. They're too young and unpredictable for me to just let them fight it out (a la "Mom, Jason's Breathing on Me") but I don't like to be constantly refereeing them, either. I also worry about whoever is the victim of the moment feeling like I am not standing up for her and don't care, but then I worry about the aggressor feeling like I'm being mean to her. I try but it just feels like there are so many pitfalls.

So, what do you do from a UP perspective when one child hurts the other intentionally?

[MujerMamaMismo]

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[krystyn33]

Originally Posted by OGirlieMama

So, what do you do from a UP perspective when one child hurts the other intentionally?

I only have one child, but I've been caring for a few sets of siblings & here's what I've drawn upon from several UP compatible sources. Number one, obviously separate them so no one gets hurt. The very non-UP thing to do would be to punish or offer a reward if they made it without fighting for x-amount of time. Neither solves the real issue of the conflict. Naming & validating the emotions prompting the behavior can help them calm down and also facilitate the development of their self control (I am angry at X, I want Y and X won't give it to me etc., but it is not ok to hit, I can use words, stomp my feet or otherwise direct the anger). It will take time for young children to master this, but part of UP is the trust that they will get it without being coerced. If there is a pattern of one child bullying another then some one-on-one to try to get down to the meat of the feelings there & maybe some play "therapy" ala Playful Parenting can help.

This doesn't help much in terms of having tools to help you feel in control of the situation. To me UP seems so much about relationship quality/meeting needs & trusting children versus control or obedience.

Naomi Aldort has a great article on this process--what we can do (after we stop ourselves from our own emotion-fueled initial reactions--we can play that out in our minds first so we can act intentionally) to help children find safe outlets for difficult feelings: http://www.naomialdort.com/articles4.html

[nj's_mom]

I would like to join this. My daughter is only 10 months, but I don't think there's harm in starting early ... she's a bright, precocious little girl who knows what she wants,and I think that's great. I was the same way, and I think it can be difficult for strong willed kids in this world, because there's such pressure on parents to be "in control" of their children and if they seem out of control, it's because they're weak, ignorant, or careless.

Any advice on coping with the views and opinions of others when you choose the road less traveled? (That's probably a pretty consistant question on these boards.)

[AmieV]

Betsy those are my definite top 2 triggers as well. I can also relate to it taking 2 hours to get out the door. In fact, a few weekends ago DH and I did just that, we got back from the pool at 11:30 and had somwhere to be at 2, and darn it all if we weren't STILL LATE. And had a bunch screamy fits on the way out the door.

The conflict between the two older ones for me is maddening. Abby reaps mental torture on Ellie. She's full on the "I'm not touching you!" kind of kid. So she will bug her and bug her and bug her until she breaks, hell, *I* want to smack her with the stuff she does, but Ellie eventually loses it and gets physical and pulls her down by the hair. I don't feel like either of them are "innocent" in that situation, but I can't stand that level of violence in my home (and that apart of M,JBOM didn't entirely sit well with me at any age, but I never had siblings so I didn't know if that's just part of it, or what).

With Willa, I don't even know what to do. I mean, the incident in question happened when I was sitting RIGHT THERE. She just walked over and smacked her face as hard as she could while I was 2 feet away with no warning. When she's in those moods there is nowhere where Willa is safe. I could wear her in a sling but a) She's learning to crawl and be more mobile and she really likes to be on the floor and b) if it's jealousy isn't that going to fuel it all the more??

I don't even entirely know what it is. I do know we have conversations about how it's ok to be angry, and I even tell them I don't care what they say to each other, Ellie can tell Abby "you're making me so mad I want to hit you!" but you can't actually hit. But she's three like your girls so in the heat of the moment she just can't stop herself. And that heated moment spills over to me, so I guess I need the most help with keeping myself under control in that situation, and also I need gentle tips to tearing one child off of another.With Willa, she's heartbreakingly sweet so much of the time that I can't see myself labelling her emotions for her and there's no real pattern to it. She's always had aggression but the dog used to take the brunt of it. Yesterday I had made a special point of spending lots of one on one time with her throughout the day as I could (I had all 3 of them) and we'd had some neat conversations and I thought she was feeling good. The day before that she spent 30 minutes "reading" board books to her sister. I always tell her how much Willa loves her, and point out when Willa smiles at her, and tell her she's a great big sister (though maybe that part isn't UP? is it praising? that's the thing I have a hard time with), let her know that her and Abby make Willa laugh harder than anyone else. I try to spend special alone time with each of them but they never want to go, especially Ellie, always wants Abby to come or to go where Abby is going. If I were to try to empathize feelings about the baby, I don't even know where to start because I don't have any clue what she's feeling.

And to top it all off, the problems just seem to get more complex and heartbreaking as they get older huh? My 4.5 yo DD told me that last time her BFF was over she told her she never wanted to have a playdate at our house again because they were fighting over a doll stroller. She was all worried that Hannah was really never going to come over again and we had to have a long discussion about how sometimes people get so mad they say things they don't mean. (but it was a nice segue into the blowup we had later that evening...man it was a long day!)

[Seasons]

Saw this in New Posts and I'm curious - how do you handle #12 and #13 in the mornings, when you HAVE to be at work on time, dc HAS to be at school on time?

[AmieV]

Originally Posted by Seasons

Saw this in New Posts and I'm curious - how do you handle #12 and #13 in the mornings, when you HAVE to be at work on time, dc HAS to be at school on time?

It's hard, and by no means does it mean you HAVE to run on toddler time all the time. I mean, if I completely never ever rushed my kids we'd never go to the fun places they really enjoy.

But I'd say if you're finding your mornings consistently hairy, I'd try to do even more prep work the night before, get up a bit earlier (I know that's hard when you're working and probably are up at the crack of dawn anyway). Is it school school or daycare? Can your dc have breakfast there? Can they wear the clothes they want to wear to school to bed the night before? Or at least choose the clothes and lay them out? I'd just sit and brainstorm as much as you can think of to make the mornings go more smoothly and then recognize that it might not be perfect but try to move through the motions as relaxed as you possibly can. I see "don't be in a hurry" as more of an admonition to not let just the general feeling of let's go, let's go, let's go color your overall parenting, you know? My oldest DD is SO not a morning person so I'm right there with you. I try to multitask and shower while she eats breakfast and half the time I come downstairs and she's still daydreaming over her full bowl of oatmeal and it makes me CAH-RAZY. So even when I am in a hurry and rushing them I try to do it in a fun way. We have a big hallway to go down to at the gym, so when I'm late and trying to get them to the childcare quickly I give them full permission to run as fast as they can.

[~PurityLake~]

Originally Posted by BetsyNY

Is there any interest in this?

Here are the thirteen principles of Unconditional Parenting:

1. Be reflective.
2. Reconsider your requests.
3. Keep your eye on your long term goals.
4. Put the relationship first.
5. Change how you see, not just how you act.
6. R-e-s-p-e-c-t.
7. Be authentic.
8. Talk less, ask more.
9. Keep their ages in mind.
10. "Attribute to children the best possible motive consistent with the facts."
11. Don't stick your no's in unnecessarily.
12. Don't be rigid.
13. Don't be in a hurry.

I need a support thread. I strive to achieve these things with my children. My husband is a rigid, angry dictatorial authoritarian parent. There are constantly disagreements between us. Thankfully, our children interact mostly with me, not him. So most of the time they are being parented the 'right' way. :

[mckennasmomma]

purity lake...i'm assuming your dh would not be open to reading UP? my dh is not in to reading parenting books, but if i really want him to read something i'll give him just a couple pages or chapters so he doesn't feel like he has to read it cover to cover. if your dh read even parts of the book it could really open his mind.

amiev...what does M,JBOM mean?

[mckennasmomma]

purity lake...i'm assuming your dh would not be open to reading UP? my dh is not in to reading parenting books, but if i really want him to read something i'll give him just a couple pages or chapters so he doesn't feel like he has to read it cover to cover. if your dh read even parts of the book it could really open his mind.

amiev...what does M,JBOM mean?

[AmieV]

sorry, I acronymized a book not everyone has probably read, it's "Mom, Jason's Breathing on Me" a book about sibling relationships.

[Seasons]

Originally Posted by AmieV

It's hard, and by no means does it mean you HAVE to run on toddler time all the time. I mean, if I completely never ever rushed my kids we'd never go to the fun places they really enjoy.

But I'd say if you're finding your mornings consistently hairy, I'd try to do even more prep work the night before...

Thanks for explaining! No, no, actually our mornings work reasonably well, but I was just confused by the general principles and whether they meant that the "shortest common demoinator" determined when the family left the house in the mornings. Just curious.