Unbelieveable! Bad appt with the pedi ... guess what he said

[Hokulele]

I posted about a week ago about my almost-4-yr-old who is having extreme tantrums. (Don't know how to post a link to that thread in here). It is at the point where she has lost her voice from screaming, she wakes in the middle of the night and rages for an hour or more before falling asleep again etc etc...

So I finally made an appt with the pedi and met with him today. I am so FRUSTRATED.

1. he basically made it sound as though I was making a mountain out of a mole hill and that my daughter is fine, that all kids are this way

2. he said I need to SPANK! : He even suggested finding an implement (think paddle/wooden spoon) to be her special spanker that we can use on her

First I was just kind of dumbfounded. From the word "spank" on I really wasn't listening to him, just trying to figure out in my head if I was dreaming.

But now I'm all kinds of upset that basically that leaves us at square one with DD. No help, no advice (that I could actually use) and just a pedi office that thinks I'm an over reactive mom.

[Magella]

I would want to find a new pedi, or someone, who will take my concerns seriously.

Next time you go speak with a pedi, or talk to a psychologist or whomever, it's a good idea to go in with notes: when it started, exactly what happens during her tantrums (her behaviors), when her tantrums happen, any triggers you have identified, how she eats, how much and how well she sleeps, any changes in the family or routine, and *most importantly* exactly what you have done discipline-wise in response to the tantrums. I found that people took my concerns more seriously when I said I've been to these workshops (for parenting), read these books, here are the straregies we implemented, this is how long we implemented them for (knowing it takes time for any new strategy to begin to work, we made sure to implement them for at least a few weeks), and this is the impact this behaviors are having on our entire family.

[elfimka]

Whoa... I had to re-read your post twice, to make sure I understood it correctly.

See, I was frustrated at my pediatrician when she started telling me that timeouts are very effective (I just didn't expect it from her, she is very AP and non-vax friendly).

But spanking??! Noooo no no no... I'd seriously consider finding another doctor.

On one hand, pediatricians are not psychologists and their job is to take care of the physical health of our kids. But on the other hand it truly helps when you and your pediatrician are on the same page in as many areas as possible, including discipline.

[LauraN]

Go to a naturalist or chiropractor who will be more willing to explore dietary and/or physical/medical reasons for the behavior. Someone who's giving you *discipline* advice in response to over-the-top tantrums is not hearing what you're saying.

[junipermuse]

Oh I can't even imagine how awful that must feel. I hope you are able to find another pedi. As far as the tantrums, is it possible she's having night terrors. If you think it's possible that it's a night terror I'd be happy to give you more information about it because they were so scary for me when my daughter first started having them. My daughter has these, and they can seem like a raging tantrum in the middle of the night.

Also is life particularly stressful right now. She may be raging and tantruming as a release of her stress. I just read a book called Tears and Tantrums by Aletha Solter and it has really helped me to put my daughter's tantrums in a new light. I find that if I hold her and empathize with her and just really focus on giving her all my attention then afterwards she is just calm, happy, and very at peace. I just really see her tantrum as her way of releasing her emotions and stress. I tell her its okay to cry and I'm here and I love her. If she tries to hit, kick or bite, I just restrain her as much as necessary to keep myself safe or I move away to get out of her kicking range, but I don't focus on those things when she's having a tantrum because I know she feels very out of control. I have to be the one in control keeping her safe during that time.

I know I have also heard people say that food allergies can cause tantrums, but I don't know as much about that. anyway good luck. I hope you guys can find a way to work through it.

[Wugmama]

My ds was having night terrors, and they were so scary because we didn't know what they were that we took him to the ER during one, and of course by the time we got there it was over, but they knew from the description and once we read up on them we realized, so if that is what your dd is having, I can relate.

I hope you make a point to never, ever see that doctor again. I suppose this really wouldn't do any good, but I'm just the type that if that happened to me I'd do all I could like contact the medical board and let them know what he told you to do to your child, make a formal complaint to the clinic (unless he is the head of the clinic) and stuff like that.

What area of the country do you live in? I'm fairly shocked a doctor would have the nerve to say that to you in this day and age. Shame on him, to say the very least.

to you and your dd,
Tracy

[Wugmama]

I'd also recommend checking into food issues. We also finally figured out that my ds freaks out when he has msg.

~Tracy

[Hokulele]

I'm just so angry about it right now.

Magella - I agree with you. I always show up with a notebook no matter what appt it is. But this doc was so dismissive "Have you tried anything when she does that?" What do you mean? We've TRIED EVERYTHING. Well, not everything, I guess, we haven't tried spanking.

And he pulled the spanking card out so soon into the conversation that at that point I didn't really care what else he said because he was going to talk from the perspective of justifying the spanking.

[fruitfulmomma]

Go to a naturalist or chiropractor who will be more willing to explore dietary and/or physical/medical reasons for the behavior. Someone who's giving you *discipline* advice in response to over-the-top tantrums is not hearing what you're saying.

This.

Because her behavior is not normal and that is not the way all kids behave. Any doctor who believes it is developmentally normal for a child to scream for an hour during the middle of the night, is pretty clueless imo.

My first thoughts were night terrors or dietary issues. I haven't see your other post, but did this start recently? I would start trying to keep a food diary and see if you can see any fluctuation in her behavior that can be pinpointed to certain foods.

[beebalmmama]

I was thinking night terrors too. Ds was having them 6 months ago or so. It also seemed to happen during a particularly rough period with the tantrums/gaining independence stage. I found a little help with Hylands calms forte. I also found that at least with my ds that he handled it better if we didn't bother him or try to soothe him much. I would sit by him and talk softly but it made it worse if I tried to hold and comfort him.

[MomOf3boyz]

Sorry you got this advice. Are you sure you understood the pediatrician? I ask only because I have never ever heard of a pediatrician recommending spanking. When we go to the Pediatrician we generally get pamphlets, that are provided from the APA, that say NOT to spank and they offer all kinds of helpful tips of things to do instead of spanking.

If in fact you understood perfectly well what the pediatrician was saying, and they suggested spanking, please find another pediatrician immediately. I know that this board doesn't like Doctors in general, but truly not all Dr's are evil. In fact quite a few are good. However this one, that suggested spanking, is completely backwards and I wouldn't be going to their practice anymore.

BUT I wouldn't swear off of Dr's due to one idiot. To me that's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[Wugmama]

You know, I just went back and reread your post and see that you specifically said this happens in the middle of the night. I shared about our night terrors because I saw that in someone else's post. I would bet my eye teeth she is having night terrors. Read up on them and see what you think. I am even more horrified (if that is even possible?) at that #$%^&* doctor.

My ds started having them when he was three. We have noticed a correlation between msg and something that is in colored drinks like slushies at the mall or kool aid that he scarfs down at grandmas. Could be corn syrup which he usually doesn't get.

During a terror there really isn't anything you can do, but just keep them safe. They won't even remember it in the morning and you can't wake them.

What a horrible, horrible doctor.

~Tracy

[Hokulele]

Thanks for all the supportive posts.

First, I want to say that I don't really think it is night terrors. It happens all.day.long and only just happened at night recently - but it was the night episode that made me feel like it was really time to contact someone to find out what we can do for her.

The night episode happened when she woke and saw that I hadn't closed the gate at the top of our stairs but I was in bed. (This is normally our signal that we are in bed and she can come snuggle anytime). She came into our room, complained and THEN started in on the tantrum. It happened very quickly but she didn't wake mid-rage.

Yes, I am SURE I understood the doc. He told me all about what he does to his kids and said something along the lines of "sure, I feel bad, I'm spanking my kids every day, but it works." I'm sure!

And no, I'm not sworn off all docs because of this. But I feel very let down because I switched to this practice just last year because I'd heard they were understanding about vax issues and general AP stuff. I'm in the southeast, in the most unenlightened (maybe I should say the most un-crunchy) town I've ever lived in, so docs I feel good about are few and far between.

How do I go about finding a naturalist or other practitioner who would be good with kids? Again, I don't live in an area that's exactly teeming with them.

And how do I go about determining any potential food allergies? DD's eating the same as always with nothing new that would be suspect.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

I remember your previous post, and agree with PP's who think you should look further into what might be causing the tantrums. They really don't sound typical.

I'm so sorry the ped was a total jerk.

If it were my DD, I think I'd probably take her to a developmental specialist, or child psychologist. Or even an OT, possibly. I don't really trust peds to know much of anything about behavioral issues; their only function is to rule out (or rule in, as the case may be) the more obvious physiological causes. And this ped didn't even do that.

Sometimes food sensitivities don't show up until around her age, because it takes a few years of eating something for the body to build up strong reactions to the food. Sometimes. So its worth looking at food. Probably the fastest way to determine if food reactions are involved is to go to a total elimination diet. Its hard. Most people say that you have to give the TED at least two weeks, but given how difficult the diet can be for children, I think I would try it for 3 days and if I didn't see any changes let it go.

Have she had any changes in the last 2 months or so? Started preschool, day activity, or ended any of those? Does she have a babysitter or daycare provider or any outside child care where something might have happened?

There's three basic areas to look at carefully:

1. What triggers the tantrums? Can you find any common elements? Do they occur more often at certain times of the day than others? After certain events? Keep a log noting all antecedents (time, day, apparent trigger). If you can get good at predicting when they are about to occur, you can step in and coach her through it before it becomes a full-blown meltdown.

2. What can you do during the tantrum to help her regain control? It sounds like holding her is out. Would she be able to respond to any kind of sensory activity, e.g. is she able to hear you well enough and willing enough to swing, bounce on a hippity-hop, go outside and run? If a whole-body type sensory activity can't be used due to her fighting and aggression, can you prepare a calming space for her where she can't hurt herself (big pillows to roll around on, padding on the walls if needed, music, stuffed animals, etc) that you can escort her to and sit, out of her reach, speaking calmly and reassuringly ("you're having big feelings right now. They will pass. I will keep you safe until they pass. I love you. You're safe."). In working with some out-of-control children, one of the best tools I've found to use during a meltdown is a stretchy swing, mounted securely in a large doorway, that the child is placed into and which cradles all parts of the body; is deep enough that the child can writhe around without falling out; and the parent gently swings the child back and forth while they scream, cry, kick, and hit - safely. The combination of sensory movement and feeling of enclosure seems to regulate the nervous system and bring it back into balance faster than anything else I have seen.

3. Afterwards, if she is clingy and withdrawn, she probably needs reassurance and comfort more than anything. She needs to know you can handle her big feelings and you are not frightened of them, even if she is. However, you will also expect her to make amends and restore the environment, with your help, in a calm, non-punitive way when she is ready.

These are just things to help manage the tantrums. They don't get too much at cause, which is where the psych or specialist comes in.

[teale]

A ped encouraged you to use violence to contain your child? He offered old-school, and terrible advice, and not medical advice?

Damn. Get a new ped, and find yourself a naturopath ASAP. All my friends who have high needs kids have found more success going that route, and have generally found a dietary change has been the answer to the problem.

Good luck.

[nycmom18]

going about finding a natural practitioner:

try www.hpakids.org and see if there is anyone near you.

or try to find a chiropractoer who works with children, ask if they've ever helped situations like yours before...and then maybe a naturopath or homepath. i dont know a website that searches for these, but is there a yoga studio around you that might have recomendations or health food store or something along those lines? i hope this helps your search out!

[1littlebit]

apparently he is one of those doctors who became a pediatrician because he doesn't like children so he gets to spend his days giving crappy advice and watching them get stabbed in the arm.

i would report him to someone. dont most agencies warn against spanking? i think i actually like this even less then bad bfing advice... yikes. you could bring a paddle to your next appt and offer to use it on him.

you have gotten great advice from other people. how bizarre that he would say that.. is he 100 yrs old? b/c even my grandmother wouldnt say that and she spanked her kids.

[neverdoingitagain]

Wow...

Ok, no more asking parenting advice from your ped. Just go in an tell him what tests you want done, and what specialist you want to see.

If it helps, my dd was the same way from age 3.5-4.5. Thankfully its stopped though I'm still not sure what *exactly* caused it.
I just read your thread about your dd tantrums, and this sounds exactly like my dd. She was ok about her baby sister for a couple months then it slowly got worse. Crazy worse, I think I posted about it a few times.
Anyway, we moved since then to a house without carpetting (I thought it could be mold or allergies or too dry...I don't know) and she hasn't had them since we moved here in October. Or..it could have been a developmental thing and your child will grow out of it.
Good luck

[Hokulele]

Thanks everyone for the posts. Believe it or not, this pedi is younger than I am. Wow - I so want to believe he was joking. Telling me all about a special paddle. I mean, really. But that can't have been a joke because he didn't offer any other advice.

Thanks for that Holistic pedi website. I tried it and the closest practitioner to me is 90 miles away!! Yikes!

[RiverTam]

Originally Posted by Hokulele

I posted about a week ago about my almost-4-yr-old who is having extreme tantrums. (Don't know how to post a link to that thread in here). It is at the point where she has lost her voice from screaming, she wakes in the middle of the night and rages for an hour or more before falling asleep again etc etc...

So I finally made an appt with the pedi and met with him today. I am so FRUSTRATED.

1. he basically made it sound as though I was making a mountain out of a mole hill and that my daughter is fine, that all kids are this way

2. he said I need to SPANK! : He even suggested finding an implement (think paddle/wooden spoon) to be her special spanker that we can use on her

First I was just kind of dumbfounded. From the word "spank" on I really wasn't listening to him, just trying to figure out in my head if I was dreaming.

But now I'm all kinds of upset that basically that leaves us at square one with DD. No help, no advice (that I could actually use) and just a pedi office that thinks I'm an over reactive mom.

The pedi sounds like he's useless on behavior issues.

Try a behavioral pediatrician or a psychologist who specializes in child behavior.