Help me with consequences and giving chances.

[megviolet]

With DD, when she does something that i need to stop her from doing, I tell her something like " IF you do XX again i then XXX consequence will happen."
She almost always will immediately do it again to get me to react.

This works fine if it seems logical....For example, if she doesn't something inappropriate with a toy i take it away... like eating playdoh or hitting the window with somethign that could break it.
SO maybe i give her 2 chances (which she goes through lightning fast) then i take it and give it back a different day to try again.

OK, so what do i do when i can't find a logical consequence? I don't want to punish her, just teach her. I'm struggling with this.

Like when she is all fiery and trying to do things that she knows not to just to get me and DH (or the pets) to react.
Like throwing her plate and cup partway through a meal, i don't want to take her meal away or send her away from the table.
Or hurting the dog or cat, what to i do then?

It seems like a fine line between teaching her that it's not acceptable and punishing her.

When i've tried things like timeouts it seems so silly, like a game, and it just perpetuates the problem at the time.

I know she is at an age where she wants to test all the time and i should be consistent but i'm not sure what i should be consistently doing lol.

Help?

[megviolet]

Wanted to add-

Her communication skills are amazing for her age, so i KNOW she understands and most of the time right after she does something she will say "are you happy? Sorry mom. Are you proud?"

[Mama_Meme]

Well, for hitting the dog or cat, I just take her hand and show her how to touch gently and then take her and have her listen to me while i explain why hitting the dog or cat is not "OK touching". I just sit her on my lap and don't really let her down until we're done talking.
Most of the time, there's no struggle. IF she goes back and does it again, right away, then I put the dog outside, so she can't play with it, or put the cat in another room (for a bit) and close the door so she can't get to her. Then I explain why she is no longer allowed to be near the animals.
For most things, I find that I just try and explain to her why I'm doing things, so she understands that it's not just an arbitrary ruling on my part:
example:
you don't hit the cat because the cat might get upset and scratch you and that would hurt AND because the cat is a living, feeling creature too and we must respect all life and hitting is not respecting all life.
If I can't get her to listen at all to anything, then I stick her on my back for 10-15 minutes and walk around with her so that she can calm down, have mommy time and i don't get driven crazy by her testing me.
Good luck!

[One_Girl]

Have you tried holding her in your arms during the meal when she starts to seem a little restless? This may prevent the throwing. My dd used to do this because she was all done eating and for several months I told her if she threw her things she would be all done but then I gave her more food instead of moving her because I didn't want her to be hungry. I finally figured out that she thought that was the way to show me she was done and that she needed small frequent meals.

For the pets I told her gentle hands and showed her with my hands. We left the room when things were to tempting.

[BetsyNY]

I'm not a proponent of natural consequences, but here's what I'd do:

1. If she can't be nice to pets, the pets have to be in another room. You have to keep them separated until she gets it. Not a lot of leeway here.

2. If she throws food, the meal is over. Not angrily, just it's obvious that a baby who'd rather throw her food than eat it isn't hungry.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

She just turned two, is that right?

At that age, they have no impulse control and little ability to process consequences.

The best thing to do is make the house as baby-proof as possible. Pets need to be present with supervision only, and otherwise protected from her very-normal behavior. If she is sitting through meals, that is amazing for her age - most children can't sit that long. For throwing food or other items, many parents will just give the child one piece at a time, or allow them to "graze" at the table (walk to and from the table).

Being very verbal is hard, because it sometimes makes the parent think they are capable of so much more than they are. But they're still babies, really, with very little ability to control their impulses. I think I would not spend much time figuring out consequences and focus more on making the house very baby-proof and accommodating.

[BetsyNY]

:

Good advice, that.

[foreverinbluejeans]

She just turned two!!!

You may be having unrealistic expectations for a two year old! Doing some reading on two year olds may help.

You don't seem to be quite clear on some of the parenting concepts. That's OK this is your first child! If you do x then y will happen is a punishment. It is also a threat. Consequences are punishments. Time-outs are punishments.

A natural consequence is something that happens without anyone making it happen. The toddler twists the cat's ear and the cat runs away. A logical consequence would be the toddler twists the cat's ear and the cat gets put outside (logical). A consequence that would be neither would be the toddler twists the cat's ear and gets hands hit.

The thing is punishment does not teach good behavior. At best it stops bad behavior. So the challenge with 2 year olds is to try to avoid bad stuff from happening in the first place.

Two year olds do not learn very well verbally - lectures don't work. They learn by watching and by doing. Some things they just don't do well. They aren't neat eaters, they aren't always good with pets, they don't play with toys the way they were intended, they don't make decisions well ect. It's the adult's job to make those situations easier for them.

I'm not sure what's up with you saying she is doing things to make you react.
Why would she do this? Why would she want to make you upset? If she is getting the positive attention she needs. She could be throwing her cup because she is expected to sit at the table for too long or it may be the wrong kind of cup. To dismiss it as attention seeking eliminates productive problem solving.

When you see problems are going to happen stop them without saying anything. She is getting close to the cat, put the cat in the other room. She is messing with her food, take it away or feed her yourself.

You want her to learn. She is only just turned 2 and you have 18 years.

[LittleBagOfBones]

A mama on here, EnviroBecca, wrote this really amazing article about consequences and second chances and whatnot.

Read it here: http://blog.earthlingshandbook.org/2...nd-chance.aspx

[_betsy_]

She may be confused as to why she gets 2-3 chances sometimes, other times more, other times less...

When she throws her food, or is about to, ask her if she is all done. Giving her a big lecture and her getting all your attention may be exactly what he's looking for, exactly what she's come to expect. She may be in the high chair too long, or she may not like the meal, or she may be feeling left out of the conversation, or whatever. When you see her gearing up to throw, clear her tray (take the items out of her hands, gently, asking if she's all done).

With the pets, it took DD (now 33 months and very, very verbal, and very early verbal) a ciuple times of me saying dramatically "OH NO! Poor Mickey! Are you OK, big guy? Oh, poor Mickey, DD didn't mean to hurt you! Is your tail alright?" while petting him nicely and doting on him, giving my DD the "cold shoulder" so to speak. Then later, after the situation had diffused, the next time we had a chance to interact with the cat, I'd ask DD to put her hand out flat, and I'd run it along the cat's back, head to tail, head to tail, talking about being gentle wit the kitty and how he liked this a lot, hear him purring? etc.

[Dar]

At that age, kids often will do what they hear... so if you say, "If you eat the play dough..." she hears "eat the play dough" and that's the part that she responds to.

Instead, you could try telling her what to do, rather than what not to do, and then demonstrate yourself: "Touch kitty gently" (petting the cat) or "Keep the play dough on the table" (do some play dough molding on the table).

And this:

you don't hit the cat because the cat might get upset and scratch you and that would hurt AND because the cat is a living, feeling creature too and we must respect all life and hitting is not respecting all life.

is way too many words for most 2 year olds to grasp... I think it's great to talk like that when you're sort of doing a running commentary thing - like chatting during a grocery store trip - but when you're trying to give her a clear message about acceptable behavior, direct is better. If you want to explain, something short and sweet like, "Oh, Kitty doesn't like that" or "Play dough is messy" is enough.

[megviolet]

Thank-you everyone for taking the time to answer :)

I'm too sleepy now to quote and repy to each of you separately, but thank-you, i read through all the responses twice.

I think maybe i'd like to give more info and clarify; i tried to keep my original post short and sweet.

The throwing food thing, it's not like she's idly tossing things. She will make this face like something horrible has happened, but be hiding a smile at the same time, and in the same instant toss her whole plate. Then say something like "Oh! My supper! Oh no!" and continue to hide a smile and act concerned.
She is in a regular chair, so free to come and go and i do offer herr to sit on my lap. Quite often, most of the time, she sits at the table eating and talking and joking through the whole meal, or longer if she is still picking at her food.

And throwing food is just an example, she does this same sort of thing in other circumstances too.... whatever i've asked her not to do or explained that we shouldn't do.

This is why i say she's trying to get some sort of reaction from me.

With the animals, she is gentle 99% of the time, and she understood from day1 that we need to be gentle to them, but again it's trying to get a reaction (from the animals) It probably happens once a week, and i don't need to remove the animals, they remove themselves lol. Again with the overdramatic, or even voicing over the cat's reaction "Oh! Why you hurt me! My tail!"

Also, i do try to silently intervene and stop her from doing these things. I don't lecture her.

Our house is very toddler friendly, there are very few instances where she can do things that arent' safe or that are going to be frustrating for Dh and I, and if she does stumble upon something like unraveling the toilet paper or the dog's water has been left out then i certainly don't expect that to be up to her to control herself.

Anyway, have to go to bed, but hopefully i've clarified for the advice i'm looking for. And i appreciate it

Oh, and she gets close 24hrs a day of positive attention , i'm a very hands on mama and we play a lot and talk a lot so it's not that kind of 'attention seeking'. hmmm.... except at dinner when she is still trying to adjust to DH being home, so i'm sure that plays into the throwing plate thing too.

[mom2grrls]

And throwing food is just an example, she does this same sort of thing in other circumstances too.... whatever i've asked her not to do or explained that we shouldn't do.>>>>>

And that's perfectly normal She's having fun throwing her food, it's a game, not some devious plot Do they still make plates that suction to the table? That may give you a moment to stop the whole thing from happening until the phase passes. For other behaviors I wouldn't bother with the "if you xxx, then xxx" it's really not going to help longterm and most of the things that are associated with 2 y/os will pass. I would recommend like someone else did to read what is developmentally appropriate and figure out how to best deal with those situations until they pass. Distraction and redirection are your best bets for this age

[The4OfUs]

A lot of good advice here. One thing I'll re-emphasize is that even if she "knows" what she's supposed to do and not do, she is simply unable to control the impulse to not do it; even if she's very verbal, she's still only 2, and impulse control, well...doesn't even begin to become remotely reliable until into the third year - that's there the little smirk comes from, the doing it and squealing, the doing it and running away. She's a little scientist trying to figure out cause and effect. Trying to figure out if the reaction is the same every time, trying to figure out what's going to happen next.

For the food, I'd just give a couple bites at a time, and if she drops them, give a bored, "Food stays on the plate, please" or something like that. I always had the plate of food, and then the plate they ate off of at the throwing stage with both of my kids...I'd try every few weeks to see if they were through the stage, and if not, go back to a few bites at a time. And cups were straw cups at the table to avoid them being upended. At 5 and nearly 3 years old, they're both using regular open cups at the table and not throwing anything anymore, and we didn't do "consequences"...we just reduced opportunity.

Try to give her an alternative TO do with whatever the situation is instead of just telling her what not to do. For hitting the window, either give her something soft she can hit, or give her a rag and water to 'play' with the window; try to figure out what the impulse/need is, and honor it in a safe/acceptable way. Tell her what you want her to do, frame it in the positive instead of the negative, and it works way better.

[megviolet]

Originally Posted by LittleBagOfBones

A mama on here, EnviroBecca, wrote this really amazing article about consequences and second chances and whatnot.

Read it here: http://blog.earthlingshandbook.org/2...nd-chance.aspx

Thanks, i enjoyed that. Especially: "Rather than go through repeated corrections and warnings before acting, I acted first and then negotiated."
A good reminder for me.

Originally Posted by foreverinbluejeans

If you do x then y will happen is a punishment. It is also a threat. Consequences are punishments. Time-outs are punishments.

I see it more as a warning- "if you reach into the tub your shirt will be cold and wet" "if you dump your yogurt you won't have anymore to eat" "if you throw your puzzle i'll put it away"

But relates back to the article linked above, i don't need to warn her. Just let the consequence happen?
What about consequences that don't have a second chance;like dumping her yogurt means no more, and then she wants more but it's gone? kwim?

Really, i briefly tried something like a time out and it's almost comical.. in a sad way... like what is the point? how is it supposed to teach anything? So, i'm not in that mindset.

Originally Posted by foreverinbluejeans

I'm not sure what's up with you saying she is doing things to make you react.
Why would she do this? Why would she want to make you upset? If she is getting the positive attention she needs. ..... To dismiss it as attention seeking eliminates productive problem solving.

I've thought a lot about this. Apart from her being a typical 2 year old testing over and over to see what happens, my DD is very much an observer, and really interested in people's emotions. For example, in a playgroup another child started to cry. My DD pretended to cry too and talked about it to me later, even acting it out with her toys.
I'm not "dismissing it as attention seeking" i'm trying to explain that she is attempting to trigger a reaction from me, and i'm not sure HOW to react.

Originally Posted by _betsy_

She may be confused as to why she gets 2-3 chances sometimes, other times more, other times less...

Yes, this is a problem for me. I think it's because i truly struggle with what she is allowed to do! I mean, say she is in the bath and splashing allover the floor and walls. Part of me thinks i need her to stop because it is flooding into the hall and getting under the floor an warping it, then part of me thinks that she is enjoying herself and really why shouldn't she be allowed to.... see what i mean? I don't want to take her out of the bath and make her miss out on what she's trying to learn/play.

Originally Posted by Dar

At that age, kids often will do what they hear... so if you say, "If you eat the play dough..." she hears "eat the play dough" and that's the part that she responds to.

Yes i'm constantly telling DH this. He'll hand her somethign and in the same instant remind her what not to do with it... always resulting in her immediately trying it LOL.

[megviolet]

I think what the issue really is: She does something deliberate that she knows we don't do. Then she makes this big reaction "OH no! My yogurt! with these (actually really cute) fake upset faces. Then she looks at me and says "are you happy? are you mad? Are you proud?"

[Shakti77]

Originally Posted by megviolet

I think what the issue really is: She does something deliberate that she knows we don't do. Then she makes this big reaction "OH no! My yogurt! with these (actually really cute) fake upset faces. Then she looks at me and says "are you happy? are you mad? Are you proud?"

Maybe you can be more dramatic and say 'Oh, no! yogurt gone... no more yogurt to eat! Uh oh! What to do now? It's all gone, no more yogurt! It's all messy now, Coem on ,let's clean up. I can help you clean it up'.... and get her involved in cleaning up. Give her a rag, doesn't matter if she doesn't clean up. Then when she asks for yogurt the next time, don't give her. Tell her its all gone. And when she asks all those 'are you happy/mad/proud', maybe you can tell her that No, you are not mad at her but you are just sad that the food was wasted. (NOT I'm sad that you threw!) Taking the focus from 'her' and focusing on the 'results' of her action might help with this scenario. Good luck!

I'm just exploring this GD forum and I'm awed. I wish I knew about this a long time ago. There's so much of good stuff here. I do AP and try to GD but sometimes yell at her and put her in timeout (much against my instincts) mostly due to frustration and not knowing the techniques that could help. I'm so happy to find this forum.

[_betsy_]

With the tub and water thing, I tell my DD (now 33 months, but since about 2 she's been able to control her motions and predict the water flow) that if the water gets out and makes a mess, she has to get out of the tub and help me clean it up. She gets one "freebie" if I determine it to be an accident. After that, it's usually just time to get out of the tub anyways.

[phathui5]

For example, if she doesn't something inappropriate with a toy i take it away... like eating playdoh or hitting the window with somethign that could break it.

For those, I would take the playdough or move her away from the window immediately and then explain why, not keep giving chances to stop. Especially with someone her age.

[Fuamami]

I'm on my 3rd 2 yo, so some of this is easier for me. But he still does that stuff. He doesn't like to dump out his food, though, he likes to throw his cup as hard as he can across the table.

I, personally, feel that a dramatic response makes it too exciting for him. When stuff like that happens, I am totally firm, serious, and BORING. Have you tried that? I wonder if you're talking a lot about your feelings? Are you saying, "When you throw your yogurt, that makes mommy mad!" or "You made me so proud when you did XYZ!"

It's totally personal choice, but I have found that statements like that tend to give toddlers too much power over your feelings, which becomes totally irresistible. They want to see how else they can make you feel, what else they can do to push your buttons, etc. That's why I'm a fan of the boring, but direct:

"Yogurt stays on the table."
"Yucky! Take the play-dough out of your mouth!"
"Bath water stays in the tub."

I also do warnings, like you, because I am pressed for time and am sometimes busy with something else. So I will say to him, "The water stays in the tub. If you dump it out again, you will have to be done with your bath."

My other advice would be to try to stick to your decisions when they are made. And don't feel guilty. It's good to teach your children that you can be trusted and that you are a woman of your word.