Newbie - Interested & Uneducated

[Smirkin]

Hi,

I have a 6 1/2m old, and I have been thinking lately about what kind of discipline we're going to do, and when it will start.

I was a classroom teacher before becoming a SAHM, and so I have a predilection toward consequence-based behavior reinforcement/discipline systems. I also have a stepson and believe consequence-based systems have worked well with him (such as, poor effort in school = loss of cell phone privileges, improvement in effort at school = return of cell phone privileges). I also have various friends with toddlers and I've observed situations in which it would seem to me that a consequence was needed.

For example, a friend's 2 1/2 year old was told not to play with the broom b/c there were babies playing on the floor and he was vaulting the broom across the room. He picked it up and vaulted it two more times and was told two more times not to do it. He was then told to put it away and his response was to vault it across the room a third time. If he was my kid, I felt like my reaction would have been to take the broom away after the first vault, and I also feel like if my toddler blatantly did the opposite of what I told him to do (like vault the broom after being told to put it away) my reaction would be to impart some kind of consequence - take him aside and ask him why he did that, tell him he won't be able to play with the broom for a while, pick it up and "help" him put it away properly - something like that. But the parents of this child did nothing, and to me, that left a void.

I am giving these examples because I am curious what MDC parents think about discipline, particularly in examples like the one I gave with my friend's toddler. I also am curious what your different philosophies are for discipline in general (the reasoning behind what you do or don't do) and at what point you began implementing it. I've browsed lightly through this forum and it seems like consequences are frowned upon, and I'm curious why that is, and how you'd handle the broom situation I described.

Thanks!

[alegna]

Personally, I try to avoid punishments. I don't think they set the right framework for a good relationship.

That said, in the broom situation, I would have tried to avoid the 2.5yr old having the broom for that purpose in the first place. At first vault I would have said something along the lines of "the broom is for sweeping, not jumping, let's put the broom away <while DOING so> and we can go jump <offer alternative- floor, trampoline, bed, whatever>"

IMO and IME (easier said than done, but talking ideals) you don't give a child a chance to be "disobedient"

-Angela

[mamazee]

I would have taken the broom away immediately if it were a safety issue, which it sounds like it was. But not as a punishment or anything - simply to keep the babies in the area safe. I would have taken it away by giving something else instead - that works well at that age. "Oh, that broom isn't a toy. Here, why don't you try playing with *** instead." While I hand *** to him.

Parents seldom have their best moments when being watched by someone, so please try to be gentle when judging your friend for her response.

[bendingbirch]

You got some great responses - gentle discipline does NOT mean you will not set boundaries, but it does mean you will do it with empathy and respect for your child at the core of it all, and it means you will understand how a child's mind works and their stages of development. They don't think in the same logical way an adult mind works, in my opinion, and so it is perfectly fine to take the broom in a gentle way, and distract your child with something else.
Your tools for the early years, and by early years, I mean under the age of 7, really are distraction, structuring your environment, using your gentle and warm physical presence to help hold the space for your child when they are just melting down and coming out of their body, not parenting just with words from across the room and expecting them to follow through because many times that doesn't work well, using a rhythm to your day and yes, I think even limiting the number of places you go or social playdates at times if your child is in a stage of disquilibrium and just can't go there right now! The child should always have an opportunity to help make right what went wrong on their level, not in a guilt trip kind of way.


The Gesell Institute books are a great place to start (Your One Year Old, Your Two Year Old), as is Alfie Kohn's Punished by Rewards and also his Unconditional Parenting, LLLI's "ADventures in Gentle Discipline". I also highly suggest contacting the local la Leche league group or Attachement Parenting Group in your area and getting involved with the mothers there to see some models of gentle discipline in person. LLL or API also often has entire meetings devoted to gentle discilpline techniques. Also check out the LLL Conference for your state, whole DAYS of sessions on gentle discipline!

It is a wonderful journey to learn how to parent with respect for your child and will really pay off throughout the child's lifetime and in those "difficult" teenaged years.

[alexsam]

bendingbirch, that was a great post! Exactly! Gentle discipline still means that there are limits, they are enforced, just done with a different understanding and perspective...

Look- consequences and punishment can "work". So does spanking ()... if your desired result is "do what I say" and nothing more. The stick-and-carrot work to keep kids "in-line"... but what does it really teach? When the cell phone is linked to grades, what is the message? "Get good grades, play the system to get the nice little A on your card and you will be rewarded by the great and powerful with 'things' that you want." I would hope (as a teacher myself and a mom) that the message you REALLY want to send is "Learn. Work hard. Be successsful. Do it because the world is a place of limitless potential and school is one way to tap into it. School is a time to find who you are, build a foundation of skills and open doors." But the stick-and-carrot with the cell phone doesn't teach this. It is a method that is... empty. Superficial. The objective to discipline is NOT to have kids do what you want all the time, it is to teach them how the world works, what is "right from wrong"...to develop an internal compass that will point them towards health, strength, respect, love, and happiness for themselves and others. "Do what I say" cannot teach this.

The way that this starts is structuring for success. We teachers do this ALL THE TIME. We arrange seats so everyone can see and kids are not distracted. We outline our expectations. We work with others to make sure needs outside of the classroom are met. We have routines. We plan lessons to build on eachother. We provide resources for kids who learn differently. We expect that difficult concepts take time and we will need to return to them over and over from different angles, using different methods and tools.

Now, instead of the classroom rules posted over the door, gold stars and detentions, you have class meetings talking about what we need to do to work together to learn. We talk about why what we are learning is important. When kids do a great job, we talk about their success. When things aren't going well, we ask them why and see what we can do to improve. If that doesn't work, we involve others who can help. We set boundaries or priorities. We reduce the number of variables of the problem to focus on one at a time. We build a plan to get back on track.

It is the same thing with your own children. It comes from a premise and a trust that children are doing the best they can. That undesireable behavior does not so much come from a negative attitude or mean spirit but from lack of knowing or a child dealing with something they are not yet ready to handle (which is where we try to relieve some of that burden). That healthy and happy children will want to do well out of a basic human internal motivation and if their successes are celebrated and their times of need have a loving guide (and not a fear of punishment) they can work through them and learn from the experience.

Sometimes, "consequences" happen. A toddler throwing a broom is unsafe. It needs to be explained (in very few but clear words), then taken away if need be. But the PARENT needs to understand that the toddler is being a toddler. They are experimenting with the world, they are testing social limits. They are not malicious or mean spirited. If you can see this difference, the adults' response may *look* similar, but it comes from a very different understanding. Instead of a dictator, you are a guide. Sometimes a guide must say "We absolutely must go this way. I have been the other way and it is dangerous and a dead end. Follow me. Now." but often a guide can offer choice, explain things along the way, look out for pitfalls while making sure everyone sees the important things. A guide listens to where others want to go and sometime the guide takes them amazing places they didn't know existed.

It is not a far leap... I see in your post you are close . Once this clicks- that you can "discipline" as a life guide, that undesireable behavior is a time for learning and connection instead of forced obedience, that the goal is not the grade, but the learning... It comes clear.

[MammaV]

I'd also like to just add that my goal in parenting is teaching my kids the skills to be self monitoring and contributing members of the family. I want to give them the skills to successfully manage disappointment, heartache, excessive joy, stress, anger etc. Does a time out for a meltdown really teach a child how to handle the meltdown? Does a time out teach a child who hits or bites not to do that? I found that in many cases, there isn't a need for punishment. Willful disobedience is rare, regular childish behavior with a bit of mischief is very common. It's my job to instruct the kids to recognize inappropriate behavior and to determine what is appropriate. I don't feel that punishments do that. Consequences, boundaries and acts of reconciliation do have a place. For my family, most learning comes when sitting on Mum's or Dad's lap and talking about things when they are not an issue. The kids also have a their rooms as a safe place to vent, melt down, or cry, or whatever they need to do. They are also strongly encouraged to come to me or DH for help in whatever they are trying to manage. I also try to instill a sense of self pride/accomplishment for making good choices and decisions.

[LynnS6]

My take is this: In general, I'd like to avoid illogical consequences and promote self regulation. My job is to create an environment where my children have the greatest possible chance of succeeding, to help them learn the skills to succeed and to help them learn from their mistakes. My basic assumption is that they want to do the right thing, and so if they aren't, something might be 'up' -- developmental stress, emotion stress, hunger, tiredness and boredom are our big triggers.

Mostly, I try to figure out the reason behind a behavior and address the reason. So, the major tantrum that dd had 10 minutes after her brother left to go to a birthday party clearly wasn't about whatever she was tantruming about. She was jealous and lonely. What she needed was a hug. When ds is getting snappy and rude, I look at the clock/check the last time he's eaten. 9 times out of 10, he's hungry. The 10th time he just is cranky.

That doesn't mean that my kids don't have limits. Ds is still expected to be polite, but we also talk about how when we get hungry, our whole system gets off. When that happens, it's hard to control your temper and voice. So, we address both issues -- the overt behavior ('that sounded rude, try again') and the underlying cause ('you know, you're getting cranky. When was the last time you had something to eat? Are you mad about something?)

I'm also a firm believer in the value of connection -- my kids are much, much more helpful and respectful when I've taken the time to connect with them. 30 minutes a day of focused attention REALLY helps.

But, I am someone who uses limited time outs and sometimes even removal of privileges. Dd is a pretty intense kid and sometimes cannot respond to reasoning/logic (as in "no it is NOT 8:30!" when it clearly is), especially in the heat of the moment. Removing her from the situation is the thing that helps her the most.

Times outs happen when you hit or hurt someone on purpose. It tells me you're out of control and need to be separated while you get yourself under control. There isn't a time limit, there's a 'are you under control' limit. Dd will also get sent to her room for tantrums/whining that isn't responding to hugs. We try hugs and sympathy first, but if she keeps going (or isn't receptive to that), it tells me she needs some time to herself to get it out of her system. Again, there's no imposed time limit.

Loss of privileges are directly related to the issue at hand, and I didn't start doing this until my kids hit 4-5. Even then I try to use it VERY VERY sparingly. If you refuse to wear your bike helmet, you lose the privilege of riding your bike. Dd lost the privilege to watch TV before going to daycare one day last week because she refused to stop when it was time to go. Since she's learned to use the remotes herself to turn on her favorite shows on the DVR (learning to read does have its downside!), she's spent more time vegging in front of the TV. I'm OK with some TV, but when you've been downstairs for an hour, you've had a time warning (in 5 minutes you need to get dressed), and you then throw a tantrum, that means that something needs to change.

So, for me, the consequences need to be logically related to the event. If my kids don't have the energy to do chores after they play, then they need to do them before they're allowed to go play. If you can't play with a toy safely (vaulting over a broom in the neighborhood of babies), then it gets removed or you get redirected outside. If you don't get your homework done, then you need to do your homework before you watch tv/hang out with your friends/text your friends. I wouldn't remove the cell phone, I'd just quarantine it daily until the homework is done.

I see this as providing the scaffolding for a child to be successful. You're setting up the environment to help them succeed, and putting 'barriers' in place so they don't fall off if they're unstable up there. When they've developed the skills, then they don't need the barriers. So, a teenager who gets their homework done doesn't need me to monitor it or keep their cell phone. A 3 year old who stops waving the broom around gets to keep the broom. A 1 year old who bites regularly gets shadowed until they learn other ways of expressing frustration. Our ds now stomps his way up to his room when he's angry because he knows he needs to cool down and he can't do that around other people. Dd is learning to ask for a hug when she's mad.

My favorite books are:
Playful Parenting
Kids, Parents & Power Struggles (despite the title, it's a great general book).
How to Talk So Your Children Will Listen

Since you're a teacher and used to rewards/consequences, you might want to look at Jane Nelsen's Positive Discipline stuff. I find her approach more consistent with mine than some of the Unconditional Parenting stuff. Don't get me wrong, I LIKE Unconditional Parenting, but it's heavy on theory and light on practice.