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"Bad Parenting" popular, according to CNN - Page 4

post #61 of 113
i agree. DS is FF and while i am not proud of that but i do not believe that i am bad mother because of it. i tried to BF and between a jaundiced sleepy baby, lack of information, medication contraindicated while nursing, and the wrong kind of support i switched to Formula. i am pretty much 100% certain that i did the best i could in the situation i was in with the support and information that i had. i know next time i will do it differently. IMO thats what a makes a good mother.
post #62 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1littlebit View Post
give in? do they think their baby is controlling or something? helloooo pot? this is kettle....

i understand CIO on some level... many people think it is the right thing to do. baby needs a schedule, needs more sleep, needs to learn to self soothe. or mamas just dead on her feet and needs to be able to sleep.

but give in? what in the world does that mean?

ETA- i wonder if they differentiate between the two mindsets when they do CIO studies. a imagine that a mother who does CIO b/c she believes it is the healthiest choice for her baby has a vastly different approach to parenting in general then someone who does CIO b/c they believe their child is manipulative and controlling ykwim?
I do see a difference. My friend had a highly sensitive baby who would fuss for MAYBE 2 minutes (not hard crying but definitely upset, uncomfortable, etc) however, if she tried to rock him or hold him he would scream and it would take hours of his screaming in her arms to fall asleep. Her baby simply got overstimulated and the fussing at bedtime was not him fussing about being put down it was fussing from the stress of already having been overstimulated. but within minutes of a quiet room the stimulation was gone and he could go to sleep peacefully. It was hard for her I think, and people made her feel bad for letting her baby "cry", but this is exactly the kind of thing I could understand. She did what was best for her baby instead of what other people were trying to make her think was best. With proper support she learned how to get her baby to sleep without even letting him have to "cry" those couple minutes, but what she needed was someone to recognize he WAS overstimulated as she said, and suggest ways to prevent the over stimulation and get him to bed before it got too bad for the baby.

So yes, I do think there is a difference between the parent who is trying to "prove they are the parent and wont be manipulated by tears" that truly CIO and the parents who are actually respecting their child's needs by not holding then when they are already overstimulated. I imagine that is something hard to do for the parent who doesnt like CIO while they are trying to figure out how to avoid even those 2 stressful minutes of crying. Some parents take so much pride in not letting the baby cry alone, or they fear being considered "cio"ing that they will hold a baby that is crying for 2 hours instead of puttng the baby day for a minute or two. Usually you can tell when overstimulation in the case because the child is tired and fussing and the more you hold them the more they cry until they pass out, when all you had to do was put them down before it escalated to crying... and if you recognize this pattern with your own child your best hope at avoiding the fussing is to keep track of when your baby gets tired and try putting them down a few minutes before their tired time. To wind down from high energy activities to do slower paced quieter activities, etc.
post #63 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1littlebit View Post
i agree. DS is FF and while i am not proud of that but i do not believe that i am bad mother because of it. i tried to BF and between a jaundiced sleepy baby, lack of information, medication contraindicated while nursing, and the wrong kind of support i switched to Formula. i am pretty much 100% certain that i did the best i could in the situation i was in with the support and information that i had. i know next time i will do it differently. IMO thats what a makes a good mother.
Definitely! I'm sorry it didnt work out the first time but so glad you will try again. That clearly demonstrated the difference. you arent calling yourself bad an embracing it. So many moms just FF because they FF their first child or it didnt work out the first time. I'm glad you didnt get caught in the bad mama trap. you are not. you did the best you could at the time, but instead of saying FF is better you said FF was the best I could do this time, but im gonna prepare myself better for the next time. THAT *IS* something to be proud of in my book - rising to the occasional and not letting set backs become a permanent place. Embracing that you are a GOOD mom - a mom who tried her best each time, and know that she is good enough simply for doing so
post #64 of 113
AP is about meeting your childs needs not about living up to some standard regardless of your childs needs. even in the Dr. Sears book it says that there is no one way and no checklist to AP because every mother and child are different.
post #65 of 113
I can see that river. I had one mom act like she was BETTER then me because she FF and I breastfed so she "had more time to play with her baby" and at no point had I been down on her for FF or called it a failure nor did I even share my pride of BFing with her because I figured it would be a sensitive subject. In the end SHE felt her choice was a failure, and was being defensive by acting like her choice was superior.

Me personally, I dont get defensive over my failures. If I try to do something and it doesn't work then yes I DID fail. THAT time. SO WHAT? People are so hard up for a pat on the back they can't handle failure at all. Guess what, we all fail sometimes, or fall short, or dont live up to our own expectations or whatever you want to call it. It's nothing to get defensive over, for me anyway. Unfortunately what I see is many people being defensive when no one is attacking them, and them being defensive comes across as looking down on another person. This is how the war is started. The first act of war is defense (Byron Katie).

I mean think, maybe SOME people do get down on those who fail at breastfeeding. Thats not cool. But to then turn around and say "Well formula is better" yes that may be them being defensive but that defense is also attacking the people who never said their breastfeeding was better then that persons formula feeding. Often times people are preemptively defensive, and thats when they come across as the ones who are attacking. Still though, if one side could stop "defending" themselves there wouldn't be any mommy wars. This "pride" in doing the wrong things just seems almost mean towards the mamas who are willing to rise to the occasion or willing to say "okay I failed so what, I'll learn more and try again when I can"
post #66 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4inMyHeart3inArms View Post
Definitely! I'm sorry it didnt work out the first time but so glad you will try again. That clearly demonstrated the difference. you arent calling yourself bad an embracing it. So many moms just FF because they FF their first child or it didnt work out the first time. I'm glad you didnt get caught in the bad mama trap. you are not. you did the best you could at the time, but instead of saying FF is better you said FF was the best I could do this time, but im gonna prepare myself better for the next time. THAT *IS* something to be proud of in my book - rising to the occasional and not letting set backs become a permanent place. Embracing that you are a GOOD mom - a mom who tried her best each time, and know that she is good enough simply for doing so
thanks! i guess thats why i find the bad parenting label so detrimental. its to easy to get caught up in that mindset b/c you feel guilty, or judged or w/e. if FF didn't work out this time for w/e reason thats ok you can't change that really. You can learn from it and think about why it didn't work and what you can do next time to help you succeed. or you can say I FF i'm a bad mommy hahaha and not bother trying again. but i don't really understand why you would do that. just because something didn't work the first time or you regret not trying or w/e doesn't mean you should just give up on the whole institution and sneer at everyone who BFs or wants to BF.
post #67 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1littlebit View Post
thanks! i guess thats why i find the bad parenting label so detrimental. its to easy to get caught up in that mindset b/c you feel guilty, or judged or w/e. if FF didn't work out this time for w/e reason thats ok you can't change that really. You can learn from it and think about why it didn't work and what you can do next time to help you succeed. or you can say I FF i'm a bad mommy hahaha and not bother trying again. but i don't really understand why you would do that. just because something didn't work the first time or you regret not trying or w/e doesn't mean you should just give up on the whole institution and sneer at everyone who BFs or wants to BF.
yes that is the different right there and that is why I also see it as detrimental. Not to mention then these "bad mamas" start to band together against "those overachieving supermoms" and then feel like they can't still be part of the "bad mama" group if they don't show that they really thing FF (or whatever choice) is best by choosing to do it again.

I know there are different kind of self proclaiming bad mamas but I was on another message board and I very much saw the kind of self proclaimed bad mamas I am talking about here.
post #68 of 113
I haven't read all the responses, but I did watch the video. Minus the spanking part (and the "I love my husband more . . ."; I just wonder how you can quantify love?) I COMPLETELY AGREE with the video. The video did not mention CIO, FFing, or any of that, so I'm not sure why people are using that in this discussion? That's not what the video was about.

I think the point is, any extreme form of an idea is dangerous. For example, you may desperately love animals and want to protect them, but is bombing scientists who do experiments on them OK? Now, on a much, much, much lesser scale, you may think you can never. ever. put the baby down, so you don't shower, you don't eat, etc. Is that really OK? To completely avoid your own needs? Or maybe you try to eat organic food, but you just do not have the money. Should you worry yourself to pieces? Put it on a cc? THAT will make you sick faster than non-organic food.

IRL (and I don't live in a particularly "crunchy" area), I see most moms as the same. Some BF, some FF, but most moms are trying really, really hard. Some moms are competitive, but they'd be that way if you knew them as co-workers; some people are just competitive. Some people are judgmental, but again, they are likely that way about everything, due to their own insecurities. Most moms I know admit to struggling, to wanting to be more patient and kind with their children, to wanting their children to have opportunities. This was true when I worked with 1st generation parents on food stamps to moms who owned million dollar homes, down to people like me, who are somewhere in the middle.

I see new mothers as so vulnerable-- like this discussion of "CIO"-- if a baby fusses for 2 minutes, is it OK? How long does it to be in order to be CIO? You know what, as much as I LOVE MDC (check my post count!) at the end of the day, only you know your baby. Every baby is completely different, as is every parent. YOU know what your child needs. You do NOT need to follow any rules, or worry about being judged. If you aren't perfect, guess what? It means you are (gulp) HUMAN.

And FTR, I hear plenty of people, even on MDC, call themselves bad moms jokingly because they let their children watch TV too long or whatever. It's normal, I think, to joke about it. Why? Because I think, with mothering, there is often a fine line between laughing and crying, and darn it . . .we'd be better off laughing!
post #69 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by nina_yyc View Post
I am more concerned about people who don't think about their parenting enough to typecast themselves.
Exactly.
post #70 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4inMyHeart3inArms View Post
This "pride" in doing the wrong things just seems almost mean towards the mamas who are willing to rise to the occasion or willing to say "okay I failed so what, I'll learn more and try again when I can"
Exactly! It's kind of like in middle school or something, it's not seen as cool to try to do well or to just earnestly say, "I really care about this and am going to figure out how to do it really well".

Saying, "yeah, whatever!" is so much cooler. Even if in reality, these women are not doing "whatever" either, they are probably for the most part caring mothers too. it's all about the image, being the cool snarky one who doesn't follow boring "good" advice.
post #71 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by traceface View Post
Exactly! It's kind of like in middle school or something, it's not seen as cool to try to do well or to just earnestly say, "I really care about this and am going to figure out how to do it really well".

Saying, "yeah, whatever!" is so much cooler. Even if in reality, these women are not doing "whatever" either, they are probably for the most part caring mothers too. it's all about the image, being the cool snarky one who doesn't follow boring "good" advice.


Seriously motherhood is worse than high school.
post #72 of 113
I don't think someone who FF out of a need is a failure by ANY means. Sometimes the need may be something we don't even know (like touch or abuse issues). I also sometimes put my baby down and let him fuss a little (not out right cry) as mentioned above. When I am holding, feeding, rocking, and walking and Shhhing him (his tried and true soothers!) and he still cries, then I know he NEEDS to be put down. He may make little "uhhh uhhh" fussy sounds for a few minutes, but then he sleeps. I don't consider that crying out. Putting a baby down and letting it cry until it throws up COMPLETELY freaks me out. I have no baby experience except my own, but my very instincts tell me that is hideous and the few times my baby has cried REALLY hard (like in the car on the interstate and we couldn't stop for a few minutes because there wasn't an exit) I have literally become frantic and told my DH we have to stop, before I panic. That animal instinct is pretty awesome He's never puked from it, my god that's horrible. I can't even think about that anymore. And no I'm not trying to be self righteous, I'm just super saddened by that, and I am lucky enough to have a baby that, while sometimes fussy, does not have colic or anything and has always been pretty easy to deal with.
post #73 of 113
subbing so I can come back and read this fascinating discussion
post #74 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizelenius View Post
I haven't read all the responses, but I did watch the video. Minus the spanking part (and the "I love my husband more . . ."; I just wonder how you can quantify love?) I COMPLETELY AGREE with the video. The video did not mention CIO, FFing, or any of that, so I'm not sure why people are using that in this discussion? That's not what the video was about.

I think the point is, any extreme form of an idea is dangerous. For example, you may desperately love animals and want to protect them, but is bombing scientists who do experiments on them OK? Now, on a much, much, much lesser scale, you may think you can never. ever. put the baby down, so you don't shower, you don't eat, etc. Is that really OK? To completely avoid your own needs? Or maybe you try to eat organic food, but you just do not have the money. Should you worry yourself to pieces? Put it on a cc? THAT will make you sick faster than non-organic food.

IRL (and I don't live in a particularly "crunchy" area), I see most moms as the same. Some BF, some FF, but most moms are trying really, really hard. Some moms are competitive, but they'd be that way if you knew them as co-workers; some people are just competitive. Some people are judgmental, but again, they are likely that way about everything, due to their own insecurities. Most moms I know admit to struggling, to wanting to be more patient and kind with their children, to wanting their children to have opportunities. This was true when I worked with 1st generation parents on food stamps to moms who owned million dollar homes, down to people like me, who are somewhere in the middle.

I see new mothers as so vulnerable-- like this discussion of "CIO"-- if a baby fusses for 2 minutes, is it OK? How long does it to be in order to be CIO? You know what, as much as I LOVE MDC (check my post count!) at the end of the day, only you know your baby. Every baby is completely different, as is every parent. YOU know what your child needs. You do NOT need to follow any rules, or worry about being judged. If you aren't perfect, guess what? It means you are (gulp) HUMAN.

And FTR, I hear plenty of people, even on MDC, call themselves bad moms jokingly because they let their children watch TV too long or whatever. It's normal, I think, to joke about it. Why? Because I think, with mothering, there is often a fine line between laughing and crying, and darn it . . .we'd be better off laughing!
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post #75 of 113
I've formula fed 1child (after 9 weeks of pumping breastmilk with a crappy pump), exclusively breastfed 3 others. At this point in my life, I feel absolutely no guilt for having to give my oldest formula. I tried my best with breastfeeding him, but I didn't have the education or support to make it work.

All of my kids, breastfed or not, are happy and healthy kids.

I've spent most of my time as a parent walking the fence between AP and Mainstream... I've formula fed and done extended nursing, my kids are fully vaccinated, but I delayed some, my boys are intact, I coslept with all my kids, but we use strollers and they watch TV.

I live in one of those communities where a lot of parents have their kids in a lot of extra curricular activities... we (DH and I) do not have our kids in a lot. Scouting occasionally, occasionally a sport, but we don't have something going all the time. If we did that with 4 kids, we'd never be home. I

The hard part for me has been finding the balance between making sure that my kids needs are met, without ignoring my own needs. If that means someone is fussing while I use the restroom, so be it.
post #76 of 113
I think all mama's are very sensitive about the parent they are. We are all very emotionally invested in being a good mother -- and as a result we are very sensitive when we feel 'others' think we are making poor parenting choices. Or we are insecure about the choices that we are making -- they feel right -- but do I really know they are right?

What makes me sad about these debates is that it feels that these we/them sides are drawn between mama's. We are suspicious of each other instead of supportive, or very sensitive to perceived slights. I have many friends who parent different ways (cio, bottle feeding, time-outs,etc, etc.,); however I may not understand why they make those choices I do believe that they are great moms who love their children dearly and believe they are doing right by them. They also deserve my support in their parenting and personal struggles, even though we make different choices. That is how mama's become strong together.
post #77 of 113
I'll make sarcastic remarks IRL about my FF my youngest dd. Why? Because if I don't laugh...even a sarcastic laugh...I'll cry. Well, not so much anymore. But definitely in the beginning. I cried over it. A lot. And it took a lot for me to admit here on MDC that I FF. But I do mention it in any post where it is relevant. I suppose so that I can let any lurkers know that an attached parent is an attached parent, no matter what they feed their baby.

I know that if I were to share my story about switching to formula, that some women would definitely judge me. I would have judged me, before I ate a serious helping of humble pie AND crow back in January when I started FFing. Not openly. But in my head. I would've thought "Hmmm...I wouldn't have given up. I doubt she really tried hard enough." I may have even doubted certain aspects of my story, had I been on the outside looking in.

I'm a heckuvalot less judgmental now than I was when my first was a baby. Over the years, I've come to see a lot more gray, rather than black and white. The experience with my youngest dd made me see even more gray.
post #78 of 113
First, and slightly off-topic, there were a bunch of posts how AP is easier... and I do agree- for babies. Doing what babies need keeps everyone healthy, happy (and generally not screaming!) and what they "ask for" is very direct and usually easy to provide. But older children have more complex needs. Maintaining a trust of your child's innate sense of self and thier own needs, finding others in schools and care situations who run programs that respect this, parenting in a culture of punishment and of children being "lesser"... AP parenting can become much harder than it was for babies and young toddlers as soon you are not just advocating your positions with your mom or your playgroup, but you are pushing entire systems like schools, religious institutions, etc. in order to maintain your child's environment when they are not in your direct care, when they are part of a larger community.

Anyway, back a bit more on topic. Take MDC here . There are always a bunch of parents who say "I'll never be as great a mom as these MDC moms! AP is too hard because I'm not 'crunchy enough'. How do I live up to the impossible MDC standards?" and the flaw in the logic here is this- the vast majority of the time, you see people's "good sides". They talk the most about the things they are passionate in. So you get a few MDC'ers who really are great at cloth diaper issues. Others are big advocates of breastfeeding. Many want to talk about their natural births. Some are really well read on gentle discipline. So, it comes out looking like MDC is full of super-people when really, it is some people are great at some things and not so big on others. The diaperer might not do the healthfood thing (so they most likely will not post in those forums or talk about it much). The breastfeeder might not have found a natural birth an important part of their parenting experience. So, they just don't go there. So, when we find out that, lo and behold, there are OTHERS who have lost it and yelled, others who have struggled with nursing, others who have gone through the McDonalds drive through... Well. We feel a little better. We're not perfect, but NO ONE is. There IS some peace in that. This "bad parent" thing takes the idea one step further.

I have a "perfect" friend. She is a child psychologist by trade with a PhD, but she stays home with her girls. She is a clown at a hospital in her off time (she brings her kids...). She teaches Music Together. She runs the pre-schools Schoolastic. She collects clothes for needy children. She is a gentle, loving, thoughtful affectionate parent who laughs often and loves her girls. They are clearly adored children who come to school in mismatched clothes and rainboots and she smiles and rolls her eyes. Her house is filled with kid art, play spaces and healthy food. To boot, she is very, very pretty and thin. When she told me one day that she had a "really hard time" with her youngest, I laughed out loud (we're friends...). I told her I was sorry to hear that, but I was also happy to hear it because it means you're human . We both laughed because we were really saying that you can be a great mom, but no one can be a perfect mom. And that is OK. We were OK in our "imperfections", bad days, and things like that.
post #79 of 113
perhaps we should start a thread about all of the things we don't do or struggled with nobody is perfect.. and even the seemingly perfect AP mama might have relationship trouble, fertility trouble, financial trouble, crazy In laws, be in poor physical health, want nothing more then to be a WOHM/ SAHM, go to bed at 2 am and get up at 5, have a house that looks like a tornado went through it, orders in every meal they eat except what comes from her boobs, or she might struggle to do all that she does and still have time to read a book, watch a movie, etc.

everyone struggles with something, nobody is the perfect mom and nobody has the perfect life. its hard to judge without the whole picture yk?
post #80 of 113
Going to extremes of a discovered Perfect System that will produce Perfect Children is something worth rebelling against, which is how I understood the Bad Mother vs. Perfect Mother thing. The Perfect Mother can be following Ezzo or Sears, and will either judge another mom because her baby is not sleeping through the night at 2 months of age or because her baby is obviously not well attached, because he sucks his thumb and has a blankie he loves.
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