Where can I find stats?

[ashleedio]

DH and I are on opposite sides of the circ debate. We had multiple blow-out fights about it before finding out the gender (we never fight, so with us both being equally passionate about the issue, it caused a lot of tension) and agreed not to discuss it again unless we were having a boy. We found out we ARE having a boy - and he has agreed to do some research on it, and listen to my argument (which I am carefully constructing) and I'd like to include the circ'ing rates in my area. I plan on writing up a list of points (which are NOT hard to compile... I mean, *I* can't find an argument for why you WOULD circ) and emailing it to him so that he can read it at his own leisure and wrap his head around what I have to say, rather than getting defensive.

I can't seem to find any stats/rates for circ'ing for PA or for the Pittsburgh area, though. FTR, the only reason he's against not circ'ing is because his best friend ended up having to have it done in his teens, not for the "typical" reasons that most men seem to have the issue with. I'm truly hoping that because he IS a rational man, he will realize that this is NOT the norm.

So, does anyone know where I can find the rates to help plead my case? I refuse, 100% to budge on this, and if it comes down to it, I have told him that I will refuse consent in the hospital. But for him to go from being 100% pro-circ to agreeing to read the research I find, talk to our DD's ped and even contact a urologist or other doctors for more info, I am hoping/thinking that it might result in total agreement. *crosses fingers*

[glongley]

There may some more recent or complete stats, but this is what I have. Pennsylvania is not on the list but some nearby states are.

The following circumcision rates are calculated by dividing the number of circumcisions performed on boys under 1 year of age by the number of male births during the year. The source of these circumcision rates for individual states is the Healthcare Cost and Utilization Project’s (HCUP) on-line data base HCUPnet. http://www.ahrq.gov/HCUPnet/ The HCUP is part of the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ). HCUPnet has the State Inpatient Databases (SID) for 27 states. The years covered are 1997 through 2004, however, the number of states participating changed each year. There is 2004 data for 26 states. The most recent data for Maine is 2003. The HCUPnet data only includes hospital circumcisions and hospital births.

Rate Year State
25% 2004 Arizona
67% 2004 Arkansas
21% 2004 California
63% 2004 Colorado
39% 2004 Florida
82% 2004 Hawaii
82% 2004 Iowa
85% 2004 Kentucky
72% 2003 Maine
67% 2004 Massachusetts
85% 2004 Michigan
77% 2004 Minnesota
78% 2004 Missouri
81% 2004 Nebraska
14% 2004 Nevada
76% 2004 New Hampshire
67% 2004 New Jersey
59% 2004 New York
58% 2004 North Carolina
30% 2004 Oregon
74% 2004 Rhode Island
83% 2004 South Carolina
53% 2004 Utah
68% 2004 Vermont
26% 2004 Washington
83% 2004 West Virginia
83% 2004 Wisconsin
56% 2004 United States

Gillian

[Quirky]

I don't think the statistics are particularly relevant, or should be.

1) You might not live in PA all your son's life....and he's very likely to move away at some point. Even if you're in an area of very high circing right now (and living close to PA, I get the sense that there are pockets of non-circ, but lots of circ still) -- what if you move to the West Coast, where circ rates have dropped like a rock? Or Canada? Or Europe, where circ for non-religious reasons is practically non-existent? What happens when your son grows up and goes away to college, and for work?

More than 80% of the world's men are intact -- as they were born. Having a whole penis, including the foreskin, is biologically normal, and the US is the only country in the entire world that routinely circumcises newborns for non-religious reasons. If you leave your son intact, he will "fit in" with the vast majority -- not the minority.

Also, the world is a much, much smaller place than it used to be, thanks to the internet. Boys aren't going to grow up sheltered any more, where they think circumcision is normal because "everyone does it." Even if 100% of the boys he knows are circed -- which I can guarantee won't be the case -- it will take one click of the mouse when he's old enough for him to learn the truth about what was taken from him if you circ.

2) Your son is an individual, not part of a herd. Think of the old adage "if everyone else were jumping off a bridge, would you do it, too?" Circumcision to look like everyone else is groupthink, i.e. herd mentality.

As parents, we want to teach our children to think for themselves, to do what's right even if everyone else around them is doing the wrong thing. You won't want your child to drink/smoke/have sex/do drugs/get tattoos and body piercings just because everyone else is doing it -- so why would you want to cut off the most sensitive part of his penis because (allegedly) everyone else is doing it?

You wouldn't give him a nose job, or pin back his ears, or do any other cosmetic surgery at birth unless he had a physical deformity like a cleft palate that needed to be fixed. So why choose this cosmetic surgery just so he can fit in with the group? If indeed the group is all circed, which it most likely will not be.

3) Your dh may get defensive no matter what you do, because this is a very personal issue. Most guys, no matter how enlightened, have a hard time at first with the idea that there's something wrong with circumcision -- because that implies that there's something wrong with their own penis, and that's a hard pill to swallow. So you may or may not find that throwing a whole bunch of information and links at your dh may cause him to shut down emotionally.

At the end of the day, a lot of the arguments about "looking like everyone else" are really about "looking like me because if we circumcise our baby boy then I get to continue living in denial that there's anything wrong with ME." So if he finds out that you're in a high-circ area, he can hide behind that as cover, and say "see, I just want my boy to fit in" when really he's saying "see, I don't want to face the truth about the harms of circumcision because that's too emotionally painful for me."

Only you know your dh, but in the end you might or might not be able to convince him of the validity of the arguments for intactness. That's OK as long as you have the strength to do what's right and protect your son. Most dhs come around eventually, and some even do better with it after their sons are born and become actual, real people as opposed to the somewhat abstract notion of a baby in utero. He might not take up the cause himself, but he'll probably come to accept intact as normal and natural when he sees your son's perfect little body for himself.

Good luck, mama!

[eepster]

Originally Posted by ashleedio

FTR, the only reason he's against not circ'ing is because his best friend ended up having to have it done in his teens, not for the "typical" reasons that most men seem to have the issue with.

If this is his reason, then simply adress it.

First most cases where someone "needs" to be circ'd are really over zealous or ignorant Drs taking advantage of parents and men. The chances of truly needing foreskin ampution are slim. Here is an article with many of the reasons circs are done, and the reality of much less drastic treatments for the conditions. http://www.mothering.com/protect-you...advice-parents

What other body part gets removed at birth b/c of the risk of it's needing to be removed later? I personally have known several people who lost fingers in accidents, a few people who lost toes to diabetes, a bunch who needed gallbladders removed (including myself), a woman who lost an ear in an accident, a father of an ex with just one arm, two men who lost legs (one in Vietnam the other to cancer,) a woman who lost a lung, a few women who lost breasts, many people who had tonsils removed and a few people who had appendixes out. I only know one man who got circumcised for a medical issue.

[Nandi]

One of the most common myths that doctors seem to believe as well is that boys should be retractible by a certain age. That was probably the reason for the friends probably unnecessary circ.

[Greg B]

The statistics are changing, but I agree with others that statistics is a poor basis for making this decision. Much better are rational arguments about our societies laws, morals, and the benefits vs costs:

The child has a legal right to bodily integrity. Upon reaching adulthood, the child may have a right to sue to recover damages for injuries or unnecessary surgery sustained in childhood.

The parent must ethically and legally make decisions for the child based solely on the best interests of the child.

Circumcision amputates approximately 50 percent of the heavily innervated skin and mucosa of the penis, tissue that is a specific erogenous zone. The foreskin contains three to four feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings. Excision of the foreskin renders the remaining skin taut and immovable, eliminates its protective, sensory, and sexual functions, and destroys the gliding action of the foreskin, changing the natural mechanics of normal human reproduction.

Circumcision puts the patient at risk of surgical mishap, adhesions, meatitis, meatal ulceration, infections, bleeding, and even death. The recent fast spread of MRSA in the US. is an example. Circumcision exposes the infant to risk of exposure to MRSA and other antibiotic resistant bacteria. While MRSA and other Antibiotic resistant bacteria can be spread by skin contact, they become ever more dangerous if they enter through a cut or open wound. Some recently circumcised boys have died from MRSA when their bodies did not respond to anti-biotic treatment. Others required treatment with the most recent experimental antibiotics. One boy who recently recovered now has an enlarged heart; that will cause lifetime consequences for him. The most recent statistics indicate that in 2007, more persons have died from MRSA in the US than from AIDS.

Circumcision is an extremely painful procedure with long-lasting post-operative pain.

Circumcision creates an abnormal physical appearance with a disfiguring scar encircling the shaft of the penis and the glans penis permanently exposed to drying, abrasion, and mechanical injury.

There is absolutely no reason why circumcision can not be done later, when the child is old enough to make a legally informed decision. Potentially this causes less harm to sexual function and appearance, based upon typical growth patterns and the Doctor's ability to predict outcomes before sexual maturity.

Bottom line is the default should be remaining normal (intact). Any other course needs strong arguments to justify it. The core issue is that it isn't your husband's penis. It's your son's penis. And your son is the person who has the right to decide how he wants his penis to look, function and feel. Not you, your husband, your relatives, or the Doctors. A newborn baby would never choose to have unnecessary surgery on himself.

You might ask him how rational it is to have a cosmetic surgery on a non-consenting minor for the sole purpose of making his child fit some shifting norm? Would he surgically reduce his sons ears to fit some perceived norm in society?

[calngavinsmom]

Originally Posted by ashleedio

FTR, the only reason he's against not circ'ing is because his best friend ended up having to have it done in his teens, not for the "typical" reasons that most men seem to have the issue with. I'm truly hoping that because he IS a rational man, he will realize that this is NOT the norm.

I like this site to address this part of your post,
http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/preg...rcumcision.htm
A baby circumcised at birth has a 10% chance of needing to have it redone at some point.
A baby left intact has a 10% chance of needing to be circed at some point. And the latter is usually due to inappropriate care(forced retraction, ignorant doctors) so if taken care of properly, the numbers would be much lower.

Good luck and stand strong for your little man....they are so very worth it!

Tara

[ashleedio]

Thanks all for the great advice and info! I was only going to use the stats if they backed up my argument, but since it doesn't seem to really matter (and especially not to me), I'm not that worried about finding numbers on it. You all provided great resources and info for me, though. Thanks so much for that!

ETA - I also was thinking... we don't take out a newborn's tonsils or appendix because there's a slight chance that they might need removed later in life. Wouldn't it be fair to say that there's a HIGHER risk of needing a tonsillectomy or appendectomy than there is needing a circumcision later in life? Not that I'd necessarily need to state it in that way, but for the sake of argument?

Oh, and something else... my dss was circ'd and dh watched it and that's another part of his argument - that he didn't fuss or cry and was 100% fine. Actually, he slept through the circ'ing, and so he seems to think that they won't "feel it." (Which is how he responded to my saying that I felt it cruel to make our newborn son endure the pain of an unnecessary procedure). That isn't his argument, but it's how he responded to some of what I've said in the past. What would be a fair statement to rebut that (that my dss slept through it and apparently didn't 'feel' it?), should it come up again?

[MyBoysBlue]

Shock! The baby was in Shock that is why he slept. I don't have a link for the info right now but I remember seeing a thread about this topic before.


ADDED:

Here is a few threads:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ht=sleep+shock

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ht=sleep+shock

and here is a link about pain
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/

[benj]

Newborns do not respond to pain the same way adults do.