parenting, to each their own or up for debate? - Page 9

[Kidzaplenty]

:

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by SandraS

So hitting a child is okay if they're about to get hurt? I'm trying to understand your logic. Please advise.

Grabbing. Did you read the post to which I responded?

eta: grabbing was the part to which i was referring. my bad.

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by 4inMyHeart3inArms

No really with the wife beating and slavery issue I am just talking about hitting a child - while yes I have feelings on some of the other issues it seems that these are directly related. It's about every other human and now even animals haven finally been given the right not to be hit against their will, EXCEPT for human children. It's about how just like they aren't protected there was a time where people who are protected now weren't protected either - how people SPOKE UP to change that - how its wrong its done to children and people should speak up to change that too (if they want it changed - obviously men who spanked their wives didnt speak up to put an end to it, and people with slaves didnt speak up to end slavery, etc - but some people DID speak up, or things would not have changed.) Society does not change when everyone sends the message its in an acceptable state of being. By not saying anything when you see a child be hit you are sending implied acceptable - even if its only acceptance of a persons right to hit another person (though in this case its only legal if that other person is a small child). Just because the law says it is their right does not mean it really is. That is not the only American law that protects people's ability to violate another person's right. We've lost sight of what this country was built on. What we need is a non-prejudiced approach to the original laws. Instead we just create laws that take away more rights, and never fully carry out the laws our country was built on.

As for "wife beating: that is not what I was taking about anyway. I was talking about spanking a woman (against her will) which is only considered "beating" today becuse women have rights, but the actions taken are no different then the ones taken against a child who is spanked. Why is it if a man puts a woman over his knee and spanks her (and im not talking about the bedroom kinky stuff, I'm talking about against her will) that it is considered abuse, but when done to a child it is punishment? I mean really, at least a grown woman can choose her spouse. Children can't choose their parents.

In some cultures, women have historically been spanked by the patriarch of the family or the husband. This is now regarded as tantamount to wife-beating and in modern times it has become socially unacceptable and is considered abusive throughout the developed world. Corporal punishment of women by their husbands, however, does still exist in some parts of the third world.
(Wikipedia)

It's really NOT apples and oranges to compare hitting a human to hitting a human, unless one person's status does not count as human because of a factor that has nothing to do with whether or not they are human? This was once color, this was once gender, and it is still age. It's not apples and oranges. It's just some people calling apples oranges to excuse their poor behavior. And even if it were apples an oranges they are both still fruit. Either one can be used as a baseball or served with breakfast, but if you don't want to waste food you eat it. Food is meant to be eaten, even if you don't use it that way.

Hitting another person simply goes again the human rights.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.
Article 3
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
Article 5
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

There are 30 articles in total but the TOP ones seemed most applicable to what I am saying here. The ones they felt they should mention FIRST on their list.

There is also something called the 4 freedoms:
1. Freedom of speech and expression
2. Freedom of religion
3. Freedom from want
4. Freedom from fear

Dr. Mahbub ul Haq first drew global attention to the concept of human security in the United Nations Development Programme's 1994 Human Development Report.

Personal security — Personal security aims to protect people from physical violence

(of course, the way this is carried out now hitting your wife or someone on the street in ANY capacity is considered violence and punishable by law, but hitting a child is not considered violence)

It seems that these things are CONDITIONAL not absolute. The only condition being children.

openly advocates four particular children's rights, including the end to juvenile incarceration without parole, an end to the recruitment of military use of children, ending the death penalty for people under 21, and raising awareness of human rights in the classroom.[21] Human Rights Watch, an international advocacy organization, includes child labor, juvenile justice, orphans and abandoned children, refugees, street children and corporal punishment.[22]

Scholarly study generally focuses children's rights by identifying individual rights. The following rights "allow children to grow up healthy and free":[23]

* Freedom of speech
* Freedom of thought
* Freedom from fear
* Freedom of choice and the right to make decisions
* Ownership over one's body

Other issues affecting children's rights include the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography.

nak

you are not going to change my mind, and i am not going to change yours. i agree to disagree; clearly you don't. and you can back up your opinion with hundreds of agreeing sources, but it changes nothing.

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by UhOhWhatNow

You do make a good point Storm Bride- thanks!

I can certainly agree. We wouldn't let our dog or child roam the street (people who do that are definitely neglectful or abusive IMO).

So, fair enough, some rules have to be different. But, protection is what it's all about in both cases. IMO hitting children is not appropriate and they should be protected from it just like they should be protected from roaming the streets or other hazards.

I know it's a slippery slope, but violence of any sort really does upset me a lot.

i agree with this, but i am also not going to interfere with a parent who swats their child on the butt. i won't like it, but i won't intervene.

beating, though, is totally different.

[UhOhWhatNow]

Me either, and I didn't

[siobhang]

I haven't read beyond the first page yet, but I checked everything, but with a HUGE caveat. I will share our experiences with various topics, not from a "you shouldn't do x or y" but rather "actually, we had this experience". My view is that it is always okay to share information - sharing info is not (necessarily) criticism.

I also believe there has to be a context. As you pointed out, walking up to a stranger is weird and unacceptable most of the time, but in the context of a conversation with another parent, sure these topics may come up, and I will share our perspective. I may also address factual inaccuracies, depending on the context and relationship with individuals.

[DoulamamaOE]

The only thing I am truly vocal about is smoking in places where there are children everywhere (like the zoo) or within the "law" limits of buildings (here is is 25 feet of a doorway). I don't agree with all that other parents do with their children, but I'm sure they think I'm a whacko hippie too. Just because I do it this way doesn't mean I'm right, and just because it's not socially acceptable doesn't mean it's wrong. KWIM? To each their own, I guess. Smoking is another thing altogether! I don't want my kids breathing in that crap!! I don't smoke and I don't want them exposed to it. I can't make them stop smoking, but I can make them stop smoking around my kids!!

[4inMyHeart3inArms]

i am fine with agreeing to disagree. I cant say I understand why someone would want to disagree that children are not humans but thats up to you.

you dont have to speak up since obviously you don't think children deserve the same level of safety that adults do, but I have a right as an american to speak up about it since I do think they do. I think the childrens humans rights are being violated - not that the parents rights are being exercised and that is where we differ.

Again, there were many people like you floating around when there were slaves. Just because you were not a black person who sat in the front of the bus doesnt mean Rosa Parks was wrong for doing so. Even if you think blacks should have remained slaves, then thats fine thats your opinion, but it doesn't mean others cant express their opinion by making effort to change the laws to protect the unprotected.

[EdnaMarie]

Originally Posted by DoulamamaOE

The only thing I am truly vocal about is smoking in places where there are children everywhere (like the zoo) or within the "law" limits of buildings (here is is 25 feet of a doorway). I don't agree with all that other parents do with their children, but I'm sure they think I'm a whacko hippie too. Just because I do it this way doesn't mean I'm right, and just because it's not socially acceptable doesn't mean it's wrong. KWIM? To each their own, I guess. Smoking is another thing altogether! I don't want my kids breathing in that crap!! I don't smoke and I don't want them exposed to it. I can't make them stop smoking, but I can make them stop smoking around my kids!!

Gosh, isn't that illegal anyway? Asking people not to smoke in public is not a parenting issue, it's a public health issue. Lots of non-hippies demand smoke-free air.

[4inMyHeart3inArms]

no it's not illegal.

Really anything that upsets you physically or emotionally you have the right to say something about. so if I see someone hitting a child in public I say something because it makes me physically ill and gives me anxiety attacks. People should not be allowed to do that in front of other people (or at all, but I think the first step in the right direction would be for people to not be allowed to hit in public)

The ironic thing is, there ARE already laws that should protect children from being hit, they just aren't carried out when it comes to children, just like they once werent carried out or people of certain skin tones or gender.

Now I personally don' mind continuing to debate the issue because while you may not be willing to change your mind just because you don't want to, there are some people out there whose minds will change when they think of things differently. Myself included.

Im not going to think something just because I want to think it, I am going to open my mind that what is actually right. I mean sure, I probably WONT be able to be convinced that children aren't human, but that won't be because im unwilling to be convinced of that idea, it's because I just really doubt anyone will be able to succeed in proving they are right that children are less then human.

Feel free to walk away and stop reading my posts if you are unwilling to think anything other then you already do. I never made you read my replies.

[SunshineJ]

Originally Posted by 4inMyHeart3inArms

They are all probably very mad that people didn't "mind their own business" but mind your own business is really code word for don't call me out on doing something wrong because I dont want to stop and I think *my* opinion about hurting other people is right, and your opinion about not hurting people is wrong, and you should keep your opinion to yourself.

This is reaching - a lot. And this is also how people who choose things like co-sleeping and homeschooling end up with CPS reports; some busybody is convinced that the parents actions are wrong and speak out. Ask any parent here who homeschools, had uc, doesn't vax or co-sleeps if they think they are harming their child and how they would feel if people chose to lecture them because they were actually wrong. Seriously, this whole thing is getting extreme.

[Kidzaplenty]

Originally Posted by SunshineJ

This is reaching - a lot. And this is also how people who choose things like co-sleeping and homeschooling end up with CPS reports; some busybody is convinced that the parents actions are wrong and speak out. Ask any parent here who homeschools, had uc, doesn't vax or co-sleeps if they think they are harming their child and how they would feel if people chose to lecture them because they were actually wrong. Seriously, this whole thing is getting extreme.

:

I have ended up with a LOT of trouble with CPS, through no fault my own, because some nosey busybody would not MTOB.

There are some things that perhaps should be spoken about, but much more often, I think MYOB is a very good idea.

[4inMyHeart3inArms]

How does CPS get involved because I
1) say something to the parent about what they ae doing
or
2) advocate for childrens rights in general without addressing any specific cases.

also if a parent does not want CPS to get involved then they should consider that the reality is some people WILL call if they hit their child in public. Should they call CPS over that? I don't think so, I don't, but some people do.

Saying that because I do those tings more people have CPS called on them - well if anything is reaching THAT is.

And in case anyone is interested, in the countries where spanking is illegal the parents don't have their children taken from them. It's usually parenting classes and sometimes a fine. Like here, it's only severe physical damage that gets CPS involved. What's nice in those countries is that the laws are so clear that people don't call CPS for stupid things.

also sunshinej you took me out of context when you quoted me. could you please edit your quote to add some of what I said before that. You made it sound like I am saying people should never mind their own business. I was referring to the people who were hitting their wives and enslaving people thinking people should mind their own business and people who hurt children, and those are often a case of a person not wanting to stop what they are doing even if it is wrong.

And I don't think I should keep my opinion to myself that hurting people is wrong (regardless of gender, race, OR AGE) just as it seems okay for people to share their opinion that it is okay to hurt people in certain situations (such as if they are under the age of 18) OBVIOUSLY that point of view and opinion is openly expressed - so why should I not share my different point of view and opinion on the matter?

[Kidzaplenty]

Granted I came into this converstation late, but I don't think it was saying that YOU have CPS called on people because you say something to a parent or advocate for children's rights.

At least that is in no way what I said. What I did say was that I have had to deal with MORE than my fair share of CPS involvement and CPS treats BECAUSE of other "well meaning" people not MTOB.

I am NOT a child abuser, but I am a HUGE red flag in my area because of my homeschoolding, UCing, HBing, nonvaxing, and large number of children. People just automatically assume they can give me all sorts of advice and tell me how to raise my children, and when I disagree or do something that THEY feel is not right, they make a stink and cause a lot of trouble.

I have had many threats (CPS threats) made as well as several dealings with CPS because of this.

I really wish people would MTOB much more often.

[MittensKittens]

Originally Posted by kidzaplenty

granted i came into this converstation late, but i don't think it was saying that you have cps called on people because you say something to a parent or advocate for children's rights.

At least that is in no way what i said. What i did say was that i have had to deal with more than my fair share of cps involvement and cps treats because of other "well meaning" people not mtob.

I am not a child abuser, but i am a huge red flag in my area because of my homeschoolding, ucing, hbing, nonvaxing, and large number of children. People just automatically assume they can give me all sorts of advice and tell me how to raise my children, and when i disagree or do something that they feel is not right, they make a stink and cause a lot of trouble.

I have had many threats (cps threats) made as well as several dealings with cps because of this.

I really wish people would mtob much more often.

ita!!!

[4inMyHeart3inArms]

Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty

Granted I came into this converstation late, but I don't think it was saying that YOU have CPS called on people because you say something to a parent or advocate for children's rights.

At least that is in no way what I said. What I did say was that I have had to deal with MORE than my fair share of CPS involvement and CPS treats BECAUSE of other "well meaning" people not MTOB.

I am NOT a child abuser, but I am a HUGE red flag in my area because of my homeschoolding, UCing, HBing, nonvaxing, and large number of children. People just automatically assume they can give me all sorts of advice and tell me how to raise my children, and when I disagree or do something that THEY feel is not right, they make a stink and cause a lot of trouble.

I have had many threats (CPS threats) made as well as several dealings with CPS because of this.

I really wish people would MTOB much more often.

If I wasn't clear in my quoting I was responding to SunshineJ. I agree sometimes people should mind their own business. I think people call CPS often when they shouldn't and don't call often when they should. I think CPS makes horrible judgment calls sometimes and other times they do the right thing. I also think its sad that sometimes things are bordering on abuse - get ruled as non-abusive and therefore non punishable by law, the problem escalates, and children wind up dead - where as if all hitting was illegal, but not in the sense that it all resorted in children being taken away, that those parents could get support and resources. Won't stop all the problems, but may decrease them. May just save a life or two of a child to a parent with anger issues who really just needs some parenting skills to stop abusing them.

I just think there is a difference between not minding your own business by speaking up, offering support, fighting for change and not minding your own business by calling CPS. I wasn't really addressing the CPS issue into SunshineJ brought it up in reply to one of my posts, which is why I replied to her. It was overreaching IMO to say that standing up for childrens rights is the same thing as causing CPS to take away innocent people's children.

[Kidzaplenty]

Originally Posted by 4inMyHeart3inArms

It was overreaching IMO to say that standing up for childrens rights is the same thing as causing CPS to take away innocent people's children.

I don't know, IMO and experience, those that don't MTOB "think" they are "standing up for children's rights", and ARE causing trouble. And let me just say that it does not even have to come NEAR taking the children away for it to be a HUGE problem. I have never had my children taken away, no where near that, but I have had several investigations based on some people that should have just MTOB (all unfounded and totally NOT my fault, some even based on lies).

Now, if a person is JUST telling me I am wrong and how I should care for my children, I might get annoyed but I can blow them off, and have. But it is when that person gets into the "standing up for children's rights" over MY rights as the parent and tries to take action. THAT is when it is wrong and they should MTOB.

That is just MO, of course.

[SandraS]

Well, I'll sum it up. I see someone hitting a child, I'll say something and stand up for that child's rights. No way will I mind my own business. There's never a circumstance where that is necessary, and it should be illegal, and I really wouldn't care how "offended" the beater was... the beatee is helpless.

[4inMyHeart3inArms]

Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty

I don't know, IMO and experience, those that don't MTOB "think" they are "standing up for children's rights", and ARE causing trouble. And let me just say that it does not even have to come NEAR taking the children away for it to be a HUGE problem. I have never had my children taken away, no where near that, but I have had several investigations based on some people that should have just MTOB (all unfounded and totally NOT my fault, some even based on lies).

Now, if a person is JUST telling me I am wrong and how I should care for my children, I might get annoyed but I can blow them off, and have. But it is when that person gets into the "standing up for children's rights" over MY rights as the parent and tries to take action. THAT is when it is wrong and they should MTOB.

That is just MO, of course.

I hear you but I'm not talking about a parents right, I'm talking about a child's unseen right. Yes, as a parent you DO have a right to how you birth for example. But as a human a child has a right to not be hit, same as every other human. The problem seems to be that children are not being included in human race. Now really anyone can say anything, I'm just saying I don't think a child being hit is something I should MMOB about. Again, once upon a time some men thought people were standing up for womens rights to the point they were interfering with their rights as a husband (their right to hit their wives). I am ONLY talking about when a child's HUMAN RIGHTS are being violated by the parent under the guise of it being the parents right to violate the child's right. Children ARE human, even if the law in some countries hasn't admitted it yet.

[Kidzaplenty]

Perhaps you are speaking of only hitting a child or something, but from my personal experience, I have had CPS called on me and had to go through an investigation because I choose to HB. They called it neglect and not caring for my child's basic human right to recieve medical attention at birth.

So, I don't think you can just decided what is "right" and what is "wrong" because no two people will think the same. The relative that could not MHOB and caused me so much trouble "thought" she was standing up for my child's "rights". SHE WAS WRONG!