parenting, to each their own or up for debate? - Page 5

[MittensKittens]

I didn't vote. I don't go round lecturing people on how to raise their children or how to live their lives. I do judge certain actions, but often without knowing the full story. I don't think it is my place to comment on other people's choices. I dislike hypocrisy, and I find it extremely annoying when other people write off the choices I carefully made, after doing much research. I notice a trend on here of people starting threads along the lines of "this mom I met does such and such, how do I tell her that this is wrong?". I have also personally written things along those lines on MDC. For me, this is more of a learning opportunity, and I', curious to see how others react. Sometimes it is even just to vent. However, I don't think that it is OK to tell others what to do. Even if you don't like it, these are their choices for their children.

Some PPs mentioned that they will step in when there is "real abuse or neglect" going on. This is interesting, because there are a thousand different views on what constitutes abuse or neglect. Some believe that CIO constitutes abuse, others believe that UC is neglect. My truth is not someone else's truth. I think there is a very fine line here.

[lach]

Originally Posted by Tigerchild

Why do you feel the need to get into an "argument" or "debate" with anyone over parenting?

Honestly, when you feel a burning desire to get into an argument or debate with anyone over anything, generally you're not going to change anyone's mind because you are taking a combative, aggressive stance from the start.

When was the last time, honestly, that someone being aggressive and combative made you change your mind about something rather than make you just want to circle the wagons and tell them to shove off?

I don't find parenting a taboo subject in our culture. We have tons of magazines devoted to parenting. It's a constant subject on message boards and TV shows. Turn on any given news talk station, and you will hear a ton of people complaining about other people's parenting, and how if only we did things <insert philosophy of choice>, then everyone's kids would be smarter/nicer/ethical/blah blah blah.

I DO think that people become very defensive when talking about parenting because they are surrounded with a culture that attacks and berates and picks apart every single thing that you do in raising children. Parenting has become a huge one-upsmanship game, from the mommy wars to arguing if the good parents are really bad and the bad parents are really good.

Some people really don't like to debate. Generally those people don't like to talk about ANYTHING debatable, from politics to religion to parenting. Some of the people who love to talk about those things a lot probably should shut up occasionally when impassioned, lest they stick their foot in their mouth up to their butt cheek (I feel empowered to say that because I have stuck my foot in my mouth even further).

Parenting is not a "taboo" subject--but it IS one where most people really don't care to hear opinions/practices different from their own. In my opinion, there is a BIG difference.

:::

[cappuccinosmom]

I voted all of them. But not in the sense of walking up to someone and "educating" them. I think they all should be open for discussion. But I think walking up to complete strangers and ragging on them without knowing their situation is just rude and annoying. :

I also think there are times when it really is none of my business. It makes me sad to hear a mom talk about how eager she is to put her 2 yo in daycare because the kid isn't as gifted as her older two and is harder to parent. But it's not my right to tell that mom what to do no matter how I feel about it.

[4inMyHeart3inArms]

what constitutes abuse or neglect to me is anything that would constitute abuse or neglect if done to anyone else. Though the law values dogs more then children in some aspects I don't base it on that. If its wrong to hit an adult or a dog then I will step in when I see the same treatment towards a child, even if its legal in my country. Though I will say when I see a child hit in public it is NEVER a "calm, gentle spanking" that people claim to use. The blows are rarely aimed the butt either. When its just a threat I don't say anything, but the threats are usually pretty graphic too and involve curse words along with the threats to hit.

The only reason spanking isn't "real abuse" to some people is because its legal. It's animal cruelty, assault, etc if its anyone but a child though, so to me, spanking is legal abuse. I don't think all abuse is created equal and I don't approach them with "you are abusing your child" but I do look at it as infringing on the right of a human based on discriminating against them for their age. Much like certain genders and races once had less rights about being treated humanely. So I say something. It's not just my opinion that hitting people is wrong. As a whole, most people agree. They just dont think children count as people in that statement, and that is what I would like to see change and its not going to change because people dont say anything.

[DariusMom]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

I voted all of them. But not in the sense of walking up to someone and "educating" them. I think they all should be open for discussion. But I think walking up to complete strangers and ragging on them without knowing their situation is just rude and annoying. :

Yep!

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by JamesMama

That...and I'm not altogether ashamed of it. IMO there is a MDC member that had a good phrase in her siggy "Judgment is not always wrong"

I don't really say anything except rant occasionally to my like minded friends...but I do think less of people that FF 100% by choice or CIO or what have you. I also do not pick those types of people to be my friends. Thankfully I have like minded friends to choose from.

Angela (Algena)

And I agree. We all judge. But sometimes not keeping those judgements private can be hurtful and even destructive.

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

I say everything is up for commenting. my rule of thumb is to pay attention to when, where and how.

-online i will comment on anything. if you don't want a comment, don't put it up there. it's a forum.

-in real life, i will only comment if the person is asking for advice or if i think i can get a word in compassionately.

-only exception to #2 is if i think things are being misrepresented or people are being misled for example, if a couple mamas are saying cio is amazing and a newer mama is sitting there soaking it in, i'll speakup.

i've learned some of the best things simply by people making a comment. i don't see what the issue is. if you don't know there's a choice, how will you go looking for it online or in a book???

I completely agree with the bolded. If someone doesn't want comments online, don't post. I don't know about others, but I know that I tend to be more blunt online than in person.

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

everyone keeps saying if it comes up or someone asks their opinion.... how else would you talk about it? i can't imagine ambushing some poor unsuspecting person who is minding their own business at the grocery store or something. has this happened to any of you? b/c that would inappropriate IMO ... not to mention just weird.

I have seen this many times in various forums and it is often cheered along vigorously. It makes me sad.

Originally Posted by LavenderMae

Believe it or not circumcision does come up and I make sure to be very clear that it's wrong and there's no way in hell I'd let someone take a scapel to my sons' (or daughter's for that matter) genitals nor is it my right to do so. Circumcision is not just another parenting decision. Circumcision also isn't a crunchy versus mainstream thing but a human right's violation. Most people I know who leave their sons intact aren't crunchy or AP really.
I do make myself bring it up with anyone I know who is going to have children, it's too important not to imo.

If someone told be they were circumcising their son, I would never tell them they were wrong. If they asked me what I thought, I would explain why we chose not to circ. Telling someone they are wrong does nothing to educate them and only puts them on the defensive.

Mainstream does not mean wrong; it means different. I use disposable diapers. Am I wrong? No. I am different from those who cloth diaper. My almost six year old weaned daughter just asked for a sip from my "boowahs," and I let her. Am I wrong for not being mainstream? No. I am just different from mainstream FFing or non-extended BFing.

[LavenderMae]

I don't say they are wrong I say circumcision is wrong and it is. It is a far cry from disposable diapers versus cloth. I do not put circumcision in the parenting choice category, eventhough I'm well aware it's legal to do to boys (not to girls of course in the US which is good but on half of it). I never start out with 'it's wrong' but I do not want to give the impression that cutting off healthy integral parts of a baby's genitals is something I'm remotely okay with. I also made a point to mention that circumcision is not a mainstream versus crunchy thing, most people I know who leave their sons intact are not crunchy at all. It's more of a not violating your son in a painful, permanent and sexual way at days old thing. Some things are just wrong.

[4inMyHeart3inArms]

Originally Posted by LavenderMae

I don't say they are wrong I say circumcision is wrong and it is. It is a far cry from disposable diapers versus cloth. I do not put circumcision in the parenting choice category, eventhough I'm well aware it's legal to do to boys (not to girls of course in the US which is good but on half of it). I never start out with 'it's wrong' but I do not want to give the impression that cutting off healthy integral parts of a baby's genitals is something I'm remotely okay with. I also made a point to mention that circumcision is not a mainstream versus crunchy thing, most people I know who leave their sons intact are not crunchy at all. It's more of a not violating your son in a painful, permanent and sexual way at days old thing. Some things are just wrong.

yep same thing with spanking. it's strange some of the things that are legal to do to a child against their will that would be considered inhumane to do to an adult against their will. I mean, I can see where whether or not something is right or wrong could be up for debate, but when it comes to hurting someone in a way that is not okay to do to adult people (or as with spanking even to do to animals) but its okay to do to a child

[1littlebit]

: i really believe that spanking is always wrong. i also believe that circ is wrong.. but i don't include a Bris Milah (sorry if my spelling is wrong) in that b/c i don't feel comfortable attacking people's religious beliefs.

i am also not comfortable commenting about things that are over and done with so if a child has already been circ'd i keep my mouth shut...no one can change it and i don't want to cause that mama to feel guilt for something she cannot change. ditto for FF, CIO etc. if someone already has done it i don't want to say much... even if i did have an effect all it would do it cause them guilt.

now when someone is talking about what they plan to do or might do i would comment. with circ i would probably recommend the CAC forum... its hard to read that and still think its a good idea. for breast feeding i tell them my experience with FF and recommend kellymom and some books if she asks. CIO is hard. if someone is thinking about it and i tell them we never did that sometimes it gives them hope that it's not as necessary as people make it out to be.

like if i have DS with me PG women and women with babies constantly come up to us and talk. and some of the pg women ask how we do things.. i think they are just excited and curious .. i know i was when i was pg. with the other moms stuff comes up in convos.. like someone will ask when he STTN or when we plan to wean him.

its amazing how hearing someone else's way of doing things can open people's minds. its like saying that we never did CIO and ds STTN very well.. admittedly in our bed .. makes it easier for someone to ignore advice they don't want to take. people told me to CIO and my aunt told me strait up that she never did it, my mother never did it, and she really doesn't recommend i do it. she said they are only babies for so long and there is no reason to rush these things... and that i will understand when he is older.. and she was right. now at 16 mos he STTN most of the time and i am glad we never did CIO its seems like it could work in the moment but that feeling will pass over time.

i have discovered that many women are thrilled to talk to other moms who are not rushing babyhood. and other mama who wont get upset with them for not using harsh discipline if their toddler 'misbehaves' sometimes it is hard for moms to totally disregard the advice of the people around them and talking to someone who trusts their instincts and believes other should too can be a relief.

[4inMyHeart3inArms]

with CIO I think there is neglectful CIO and well intentioned (Though imo still wrong) CIO.
such as the parent who checks on the baby every 5 minutes and comes to pat them on the back versus the parent who just puts them down at a certain time and doesnt go back until morning. I think one is lazy and plain evil and neglectful and the other is misguided and misinformed and probably wouldnt do that if they knew a better way. What it comes down to is once you know there is a better way do you choose to change or do you keep doing something harmful to your child? Do you "embrace your badness" or do you just do your best. Doing your best doesn't mean you will be supermom and I dont suggest killing yourself in your attempts, but simple things such as not doing something that will cause your child physical and emotional pain (which both CIO and spanking can cause) is a goal worth working hard to reach. There are varying degrees of wrongness, and it would only be detrimental to embrace that wrongness. The parent who realizes spanking and cio are wrong and slip up and lose patience once in a blue moon and hit their kids bottom once or twice or leave the room for 5 minutes to recollect themselves when baby wont stop crying but makes an effort to increase their patience and gentleness - I admire that even if they aren't perfect. But the parent who embraces their badnes in doing those wrong things, they have justified those actions. 5 minutes of crying turns into 10 then 15 then 30 and more. Spanking becomes a regular thing and when it stops working it becomes more severe and sometimes crosses the line into what is even legally considered abuse. I think I read that parents who spank are 4 times more likely to end up abusing their child then parents who don't believe in spanking. Personally I knew I could never live with myself if I hit my kids but I did yell at them a few times before I realized where I needed my walking away point to be. I hold nothing against a parent who makes mistakes, and I do not think they are abusing their children. But parents who CHOOSE to hurt their children and defend it as their "right" to do so that is when I consider it crosses the line into abuse. And of course, within the world of abuse there is a wide spectrum that ranges from a smack on a hand to beating a child to death. Just because some people beat their kids though doesn't mean its not wrong to spank them. It's still treating HUMANS under a certain age as if they don't deserve the same humane treatment that is give to humans over a certain age or even animals. I understand children dont have the same rights as adults, they can't vote etc. But can't we at least treat them better then we treat dogs? There is a difference between a childs right not to be pysically harmed and a child being allowed to drink and drive and vote. The right to not be hurt to me is not awarding a child too many rights. Some right people should just always have simply because they are people.

[KirstenMary]

Originally Posted by LavenderMae

I don't say they are wrong I say circumcision is wrong and it is. It is a far cry from disposable diapers versus cloth. I do not put circumcision in the parenting choice category, eventhough I'm well aware it's legal to do to boys (not to girls of course in the US which is good but on half of it). I never start out with 'it's wrong' but I do not want to give the impression that cutting off healthy integral parts of a baby's genitals is something I'm remotely okay with. I also made a point to mention that circumcision is not a mainstream versus crunchy thing, most people I know who leave their sons intact are not crunchy at all. It's more of a not violating your son in a painful, permanent and sexual way at days old thing. Some things are just wrong.

But in saying that what they have done (or plan on doing is wrong), you are telling them that they are wrong in making that choice. And that it's wrong is still your opinion, no matter how convicted about it you are or how many people agree with you (and I, for one, do agree).

I don't understand how telling a parent that their legal choice is wrong is going to make them more open to the subject, regardless of where it enters the conversation.

[Cinder]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

lol i should have put car seat safety too! thats a minor thing for some people and a huge issue for others. i think there is more misinformation out there about carseat safety then any other parenting issue combined.. and that one is sort of a biggie.

Ok, carseats are a big deal to me, I HATE when people post pictures of their kids in a winter coat with chest clip at belly botton level that I could put my entire arm in between them and the straps...why in the world are you even bothering with a car seat at this point! But, I don't say anything unless asked...however, when a woman at Kincaid's school was driving with her infant carrier forward facing(still not sure how they did that) in the front seat with a kid obviously too big (both head and feet hung out of the seat, not just feet) for it, I did do everything I could to get that changed (difficult, since they spoke no English or Spanish, and I only speak English and a tiny bit of Spanish).

[Cinder]

Originally Posted by MittensKittens

Some PPs mentioned that they will step in when there is "real abuse or neglect" going on. This is interesting, because there are a thousand different views on what constitutes abuse or neglect. Some believe that CIO constitutes abuse, others believe that UC is neglect. My truth is not someone else's truth. I think there is a very fine line here.

There are some things where opinion doesn't play a part though, it just IS abuse, no matter what you (general you) think... like, say beating a kid with a pop bottle in walgreens parking lot (dh called the cops...)...

[MittensKittens]

Originally Posted by Cinder

There are some things where opinion doesn't play a part though, it just IS abuse, no matter what you (general you) think... like, say beating a kid with a pop bottle in walgreens parking lot (dh called the cops...)...

Of course I agree. But try being on the side where people claim you are neglectful, when you know you are doing the best for your child. I am talking about things that are judged as such by the mainstream - co-sleeping, not vaxing, UC, and there are probably more. Just because it is legal does not mean it's not abuse, but I am just saying that there is more than one "truth" out there, as with everything in life. Just like with the terrorist/freedom fighter pair .

[Norasmomma]

For me I'm a roll with it kind of mom, I am AP in a way, but I don't like labeling myself.

There are lots of things I don't agree with and other things that some others would think I do are lame. I give my DD mac n cheese, I let her watch some TV-so I can actually get something done. She eats some cookies.

I've been called a terrible mother when she was 19 months old because she squealing in the store. An older couple pulled up to me and asked if she was mentally ill, I asked them if they were joking, they said no. They then proceeded to tell me what a terrible mother I was and what the hell I was doing letting my young toddler scream in the store. What did they think I should do? Smack her? Give her a whippin in the store? I have no idea. Obviously whatever I was doing in their eyes was wrong. I'm pretty sure they expect me to spank her or something, which is something that is not happening.

Some people think that time outs are demeaning, but for us it's the only thing that can curb our spirited DD's behavior at times, she needs to sit and reflect upon the behavior that is inappropriate.

I think a lot of it is highly personal decisions.

[LavenderMae]

Well, my approach with discussing circumcision has helped one mom I know leave her son intact even though she always thought she would (even well into her pregnancy) circumcise, helped a mom with two circumcised boys to educate herself and as a result she left her 3rd son intact, pionted another mom in the right direction for info to change her dh's mind (it did), and those are just the effects I can remember off the top of my head. And it is wrong to surgically remove a healthy, integral and sexual part of someone else's body and I have no desire to sugar coat that. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's ethical or right.

I am however not heart less and realize we all make mistakes, I've made my share for sure. I know mamas that fully regret circumcising their sons and I offer them nothing but my deepest sympathy and support.

I have no doubt that in the future the way I feel about circumcision will be the mainstream view it will become a dark part of our countries past that generations from now will be looked back on as unbelievable (can you believe people used to do this here). Hopefully that's not just wishful thinking. Maybe spanking and CIO will be the same, that would be lovely.

[weliveintheforest]

I think all aspects of parenting are okay to discuss/comment on, but only in the right circumstances. Every situation is different. If it's a friend, or they seem like they would be open to what I'd have to say, it's a lot different than a random stranger in the mall saying breastfeeding is gross.

[onlyzombiecat]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

if someone gave you advice would you say something along the lines of "oh we do what works for our family" or "thanks for your opinion" or would you consider that an appropriate situation in which to give your opinion? not critical btw.. i'm just curious. b/c i agree that in most situations different things are right for different people so you don't want to railroad people but if they offer you advice would you think it was ok to offer your own opinion or no? i know there are many right ways and right reasons that are specific to each family, is there anything that you would never consider right? for me that is spanking but i know some might disagree

I don't ask for advice often IRL. I would probably be pretty annoyed at unsolicited advice (based on past experience) so I would confine my answer politely.

I was given unsolicited advice to put my dd in school because homeschooling is horrible, etc, etc. I responded and put a lot of effort into bringing out evidence and support for my decision without saying that other options are bad and it really just got ugly. In retrospect these were people who did not want to learn and discuss other educational options. They just wanted to tell me what to do because they were threatened by someone making a different choice. They wanted us to be like everyone else so we didn't embarrass them. I should have just said "thanks for your concern" and changed the subject.

No one has ever said to me "You really should spank your daughter." If they did I would probably not want to engage them in a discussion. If someone said, "You must spank your dd all the time to get such good behavior" then I would correct them and be open to discussing how we handle things without spanking.

If someone had said (when dd was in a safety seat),"Oh, you don't need that. Just hold her on your lap. I'm a safe driver and we are only going to the store." I would have refused. I'm not sure how much discussion there would be. It depends on my relationship with the person I guess.

I have gotten unsolicited advice on sleep and food and education. I just kind of let it pass by without discussion these days and not waste my energy.

I just wanted to add that my dd is 9 and I'm not going to have more babies. I don't participate in a lot of parenting discussions on baby stuff anymore. I'm not in the stage where I passionately care about a lot of these issues. I have heard and seen it stated multiple times that as a parent of one child I automatically do not know as much as a parent of multiple children so people will just tune me out no matter what I have to say anyway.

[1littlebit]

Originally Posted by onlyzombiecat

I have heard and seen it stated multiple times that as a parent of one child I automatically do not know as much as a parent of multiple children so people will just tune me out no matter what I have to say anyway.

: you may not necessarily know what it is like to parent multiple children at once...neither does anyone else with only one child... but only children do not morph into a completely different species once there is more then one child....

that makes no sense. it doesn't matter how many kids you have, some people with one child could write their dissertation on children and some people with 5 kids don't know which part of a child is up. i imagine it would be individual to each person....

[1littlebit]

and i was sort of wondering if people's answers would change if the person in question was a good friend. i wasn't really thinking of strangers when i wrote the OP... i think it kind of sounds like it though. i was thinking of other mom acquaintances and good friends you knew before they became parents.

and how would your response differ between someone with children, someone without, and someone who is pg?