I need help - Puppy bit ds last night - Page 2

[mistymama]

Good ideas Ola.

Beanie sees us eat many times during the day when he is NOT eating - but at dinnertime I've always found it easiest to feed him *while* I'm cooking our dinner, which does mean he eats first and we eat last.

What do you think - should I change that routine? It wouldn't be that hard to change - but not sure it's necessary since he sees us eat lots of times without him, esp ds who is snacking all day long.

Things are still going good - ds is really into training and working with Beanie, which is pretty cool. He woke up this morning and was making Beanie do "sit,down" to get one of his bones to chew on. Beanie is listening to him quite well.

[mistymama]

Originally Posted by geekgolightly

This is resource guarding to be sure, but he doesn't do it to her. He may well see her as alpha and that's why he won't resource guard with her, but this is the first thing that my dog did with us.

I do think he sees me as Alpha - but didn't think of ds or dh that way. I am the one who totally controlled the food, walks & did the training. Ds was more of a playmate and dh works long hours so he just isn't around much. Plus I'm more of the type to push Beanie off me and tell him to get away - where as dh is a softie and would let Beanie get on his lap whenever he wanted to. I think Beanie needs to learn to see ds and dh as people who also control the resources and we'll see a big difference. Just the few things we put into place have made a difference already.

[SophieAnn]

Originally Posted by mistymama

So, I'm encouraged! I'm going to read up on all of the resources you guys gave me, and we have a neuter date for next Thurs. I had no idea it needed to be done already - the vet told me to call as soon as he lifted his leg which was just this past week. I just didn't know and I hate that.

(bolding mine)

This... is both shocking and hilarious to me.

I have 2 large breed male dogs.

One, we neutered when he was 14 months old, and he never did and still never has lifted a leg. He never marked, or showed any "intact-male" behaviours. His personality/behaviours did not change as a result of his neutering. We waited longer than typical and both our vet and our breeder supported us - in hindsight I would've waited longer.

Our 2nd dog is 9 months old, un-neutered. He has never lifted a leg either, and I doubt he ever will.

Lifting his leg has nothing to do with whether or not it is the right time to neuter. I hope this is the only bad advice you're getting from your vet.

Sorry to take this off-topic, but that was just hilarious.

Great to hear things are going so well, and that your ds has been successful with training already!

[Ola_]

I forgot to add that in addition to supervising him, you can also use a belly band to get the leg lifting under control.

[mistymama]

SophieAnn - Glad I could give you a little laugh.

I always had large dogs and I don't think a single one of the males ever lifted his leg. So I believed my vet and trusted maybe leg lifting was a little dog thing. Guess not - but this guy sure does it!

Regardless, we are on the schedule for a neuter next Thursday. I honestly would have done it sooner had I known - kinda makes me doubt this vet but she has been really great in other areas, even catching a skin condition super early on that I hadn't even noticed. So who knows, we'll stick with her for now...

[mistymama]

Ola, thanks for the bellly band suggestion - today he's been really good, no marking. Hopefully we can make it to next Thursday on supervision alone - but if I get desperate it's nice to know there is something like that out there!!

[almama]

One really important thing to do is to randomly put high value food (real meat, etc) into his bowl while he is eating. Your son should do it too (although you should start it). You need to reach your hand way down into the bowl while you do it. It trains the dog not to be worried about you near their food. Same with treats, bones, etc. Pick it up randomly and replace it with something good. Your son should do it too.

Also, make your dog sit and wait for everything.

[mistymama]

Thanks for the suggestion - all he eats is high value food (we feed raw) - but I can certainly do that with treats - give him something so so and then have ds replace it with something really, really good!

Thanks!!

[rhubarbarin]

Good luck with Beanie! I'm sorry this happened and your poor ds was hurt and scared.

I have the sweetest, softest dog in the world but he has bitten me twice (in the early days before we understood each other). We've done a lot of work and I can do anything to him now.

It's normal for dogs to bite, but there are many ways to teach them not to! I'm glad you are going to try to solve the problem and it sounds like you are doing a lot of good things. Hope it doesn't happen again.

As far as the leg-lifting.. I am not understand your vet's POV on it!

[thursday2]

This is a way late reply, but as the issue is most likely still continuing and this is later-stage advice anyway...

Two things that we did that worked wonders:
1) not allowing her to eat until she had been given permission. If she ran for the food, we picked up the bowl. She had to sit and wait for the "ok". Problematic now as she is so well-trained we sometimes forget to say "ok" on busy nights and she stares at us for five minutes before we remember
2) We then progressed to actually taking her food away. I DON'T recommend this to anyone whose dog is actively resource guarding as you will most likely get bitten...but, once a trust has been established, simply say "Excuse me" or make a clicking noise to give the heads-up, and take away the food for a moment. If she growls or reacts, she gets a stern no and the food doesn't get returned for ten or fifteen minutes. Otherwise, we put it on the counter for 30 seconds and then put it back. This routine started accidentally when we forgot her meds one day, but we now do it every so often to reinforce, especially after a day of hanging out with another dog where there's been pushing and shoving for food/water. She quickly learned that it is NOT smart to react, and now we can literally take a steak bone out of her mouth without even a rumble (we feed raw as well).

[mistymama]

Thanks everyone for your support -

Beanie bit ds again. He was not resource guarding, I saw the whole thing. Ds laid his head down next to him, and Beanie lashed out and bit his cheek. It broke skin and was just an awful experience for all of us.

I thought we had been doing better - and Beanie was listening to ds so well - I really thought we were on the right track.

My heart is broken, but I must take him back to the breeder. I've cried so much and even poor ds (who is just fine) is crying and can't seem to understand why we can't keep Beanie.

I've owned many, many dogs in my lifetime - even fostered some very tough guys - but I've never been in a situation like this. Where the dog is sweet 99% of the time and then seems to just *snap* - when he bit there was no bone around or resource to guard.

Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions. I'm just heartbroken right now and must leave in a bit to make the long drive back to the breeder. This is one of the hardest things I've ever done.

[gingerstar]

I'm so sorry. You are a good mama, though, looking out for your child. I wish you and your family the best, as you help your son through a tough situation.

[Ola_]

Originally Posted by mistymama

Beanie bit ds again. He was not resource guarding, I saw the whole thing. Ds laid his head down next to him, and Beanie lashed out and bit his cheek.

Just wanted to point out that this is still resource guarding, many dogs view space around them as a valuable resource. One of my dogs guards her space (what I call her bubble) from our other dog, but not from any humans.

This doesn't change anything of course, I just wanted to mention it. I agree with your decision to return the dog, it doesn't sound like he is a safe addition to your family. I'm sorry you're having to deal with this.

[mistymama]

Thanks for the info Ola. I've never seen him care much about the space around him - but that is what scares me the most. I just can't trust him with ds. I don't think this dog is meant to be with children, I think in a home with adults he will be just fine. If it was just dh and I, I would keep him.

I've never had to "return" a dog in my life - I'm seriously so upset about it. And the breeder is out of town for the 4th of July - so I will not be able to return him until next week. It's torture knowing I will have to, but still having my baby right here.

And to top if off, dh is not being very understanding of my sadness. He is very upset that ds got hurt (so am I!) but feels like I'm caring more about the dog than anything.

This whole situation is just sad. And hard.

[Ola_]

Originally Posted by mistymama

Thanks for the info Ola. I've never seen him care much about the space around him - but that is what scares me the most.

Space is valuable to many dogs, that's why so many dog fights happen around doorways as well. Dogs that care that much about resources often will guard people. It's really a tricky thing to deal with and can be difficult to predict, especially when you can't control life all the time.

And to top if off, dh is not being very understanding of my sadness. He is very upset that ds got hurt (so am I!) but feels like I'm caring more about the dog than anything.

That's crazy talk, you're putting the priority on your child, that's why you're returning the dog! You're allowed to grieve your loss.