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Talking Back

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
I'm visiting my family from out of town and staying with my dad and step mom right now and had an incidence with ds and with my step mom today that I would like some advice on.

Ds woke up and wanted to watch a movie, so I let him. Part way through, I had him come to the table and eat breakfast while he watched, which he did but he didn't eat much. When the movie ended, he asked to watch another one and I told him no and that I wanted him to eat his breaskfast first. He got upset and started saying that he didn't want to eat, he wanted to watch a movie. My step mom then told him that he wasn't going to get another movie until he finished eating, to which he replied that he was full. He kept going on and on about wanting to watch a movie. I told him no again, to which he started yelling at me. My step mom said to him "You don't talk to Mommy that way" to which he yelled "Yes". He then came over to me and was tugging on me/trying to push me off my chair and trying to go put a movie in and yelling/getting upset at me that he wanted to watch a movie and didn't want to do any of the things I suggested he could do. I eventually got him down to the room we were staying in and he nursed and calmed down.

Later my step-mom asked me if I always let him talk that way to me. She told me that I shouldn't let him talk back to me and be so disrespectful and I said, "well, he's only 3!". She gave me this big long lecture on how I needed to start when he's young to teach him to be respectful and how if I don't start now, then when? She asked if I thought it was okay for him to yell at me, completely disregard me telling him he couldn't do something, and pushing me. She told me how my step-sister gets down on my 3 year old nieces level and says "S, you do not talk to Mommy that way. It hurts my feelings. Please say sorry." and that I should do the same. She went on and on about how I need to 'nip this behaviour in the bud" now because when ds is a teenager, it's only going to get worse. I need to teach him to talk nicely to me, as well as to all adults, and that I should not let him get away with not talking nice. Kids need boundaries, ect, ect.

I just sat and listened and didn't know what to say. It's hard to have your parenting come under attack and I know that there is nothing I could have changed her opinion. I've always felt that you teach respect by being treating respectfully, not by demanding/forcing it. I've heard many parents say to their kids not to talk to them a certain way but I've never once been bothered by the way ds talks to me, for the most part. I will ask him to ask for things nicely if he is demanding I do/get something, but that's about it.

But the more I think about it, the more I am wondering if some of what she is saying is true. Maybe I am being too relaxed with the way ds talks to me when I say no. He gets really upset when he does get his on way and will go on and on about how what he wants is a good idea and will say "no, mommy" a lot, and yell at me. I don't give in and let him do what he wants to do when he's like this, but I also let him yell at me. I've always looked at it as his way to vent his frustration with not getting his own way.

What's your take on this? Should I be trying to teach ds to 'talk nicely' to me? Do you do anything when your kids yell at you when they are upset? How do you respond to what other people call "talking back"?
post #2 of 18
Honestly, I ask that DS1 speaks to me nicely. I just tell him that he's being rude and I don't like being spoken to that way. That I am polite to him, and I expect the same back.

Usually there is a reason that he will yell etc and I will sympathise for a while with him, but there comes a point where I say "I know that you are tired / disappointed etc but it is not OK to speak to me / yell at me like that. Do you need to have some quiet time in your bedroom?"

Honestly I would not have let DS treat me the way you describe above. I am a person. I would not let DH or anyone else treat me like so I don't see why I should let my child.

There are times that he might yell "NO!" or "BE QUIET!" at me, and generally I will say calmly "please don't speak to me like that" and move on.

Does any of this make sense? I'm not thinking very clearly this morning! LOL
post #3 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Learning_Mum View Post
Honestly, I ask that DS1 speaks to me nicely. I just tell him that he's being rude and I don't like being spoken to that way. That I am polite to him, and I expect the same back.

Usually there is a reason that he will yell etc and I will sympathise for a while with him, but there comes a point where I say "I know that you are tired / disappointed etc but it is not OK to speak to me / yell at me like that. Do you need to have some quiet time in your bedroom?"

Honestly I would not have let DS treat me the way you describe above. I am a person. I would not let DH or anyone else treat me like so I don't see why I should let my child.

There are times that he might yell "NO!" or "BE QUIET!" at me, and generally I will say calmly "please don't speak to me like that" and move on.

Does any of this make sense? I'm not thinking very clearly this morning! LOL
No, it does make sense. It's just never occured to me that there was a problem with the way he talks to me when he is upset until my step-mom pointed it out. But after talking to my step mom, I've been wondering if I should be doing exactly what you just described- gently teaching him to talk nicely to me.
post #4 of 18
I'm very much of the opinion that if it's not a problem for you, then don't worry about your stepmother's opinion. It's really, really hard to have your parenting come under attack, but it doesn't mean your parenting is any less valid. Now, I wouldn't be okay with someone tugging on me and telling me to put a movie in, but that's just a button for me (probably because my whole childhood was filled with people yelling at me). If you and your son are happy, then I don't think you need to worry!

I was a lovely, polite, terrified of consequences child - and a snarling, nasty, screaming teenager, because I was never treated with respect growing up. I think that modeling respect, and treating your child like they are worthy of your respect, goes a long way towards having a child who is respectful of other people.
post #5 of 18
I think it all depends on the situation. I probably would have just let him watch another movie. Seriously, he's in a new place, he was pissed that he couldn't watch another movie, you're pregnant, etc.

Anyway, nobody likes to have their parenting critiqued. This is a phrase I have memorized for such incidents. "Thanks for your input, but the subject is no longer open for discussion."
post #6 of 18
Everyone is totally different & everyone's kids are totally different.

While I agree that having parenting "attacked" (which is not what I pictured from your description) is hard, I also feel everyone who has ever had kids, no matter their theories or ideologies, has wisdom to share. It might not be for you, but there is always something to take away from it; especially when the experience/ideas shared by family.

For me parenting is always a subject that is open for discussion. I might not feel something is right for me but I always learn from the exchange of ideas; hence I frequent this board! I don't think I know all, and I don't think anyone does. For me being a flexible and open minded parent is a must.

It sounds like you have a good relationship with your MIL & she raised a question that made you think. If you are ok with the way things are, then keep doing what you're doing. It sounds from your reply, though, that you might be ready for something new.


Like Learning_Mum I don't want to be verbally or physically abused by anyone, even an emotionally unregulated toddler. I ask that DD speak to me nicely and I also tell her when she's being rude (to anyone) and that I (and anyone else) don't like being spoken to that way.

I definitely give her more chances to ammend herself when dealing with myself than I do with others. I am absolutely not ok with her pushing the limits of respect with her grandparents/family/friends etc.

For our family the "It Takes A Village" idea is very important. We don't raise our daughter to believe we are the end all be all, and we want her to understand everyone is as much part of the world as we are.

I also say "I know that you are tired / disappointed etc but it is not OK to speak to me / yell at me like that. Can you take a deep breath with me?" If that fails I ask "Do you need to have some quiet time in your bedroom?"

A lot of times she'll take a deep breath. Sometimes she loses her mind she has quiet time in her room, though "quiet" is used with irony.

Earlier today she lost her mind because she wanted her papa (grandpa who is at work). She unlocked & started running out of the front door. Clearly I had to catch her & held her while telling her it wasn't safe.

Sometimes the holding, soothing, deep breaths works with her, but some of the time it doesn't. I become the outlet for her fustration/anger/aggression, and that's not ok with me.

Today was an example of one of those times. She hit, kicked, screamed at the top of her lungs so I put her in her bed & told her she needed to stay there until she could calm down & be nice.

We used to set the timer for 3 minutes (she's 3), but it either went off way too early or way too late. Now we go the "self-regulated" route (regulated by both her and us).

So, this time she screamed, threw stuff in her bed, at one point screeched "IM GOING TO MAKE MYSELF THROW UP" and made a break for it 3 times (at which point I took her back into her bed [gently] & told her she may come out when she could stops screaming and be nice). I told her the third time I would close the door if she couldn't stay in her safe place herself and calm down.

Everyone is different, and I know a lot of people might think the whole staying in bed & door shutting is cruel. Some people might think it's too gentle!

Regardless, it works for us at this point and time. Within 5 minutes my daughter came out & said "I'm sorry I did that to 'ya Mama. I don't want to hurt you anymore... I love you" She always comes out understanding what's going on.

Parenting is so fluid. Things that work today might not work tomorrow. What works for some wont work for all.

I hope you find something that works for you!




ETA: Our pediatrician went over the "1 hour / day limit" on TV with my daughter and I at our last visit. With rare exceptions (movie night, etc) she only gets 1 hour a day. "Doctor's orders" helps divert the disagreement.
post #7 of 18
The only problem I see was that you and your stepmom were trying to get your DS to eat more when he was finished, and then made it into a behavior issue instead of letting your DS stop eating when he didn't want any more food. We let our DD completely self regulate her food intake. My DH and I are both overweight and we don't want her to have food issues or ignore her body when it says she's had enough.

If my DD, 3.5 years old, is rude to some one we point it out by calmly saying "that's rude, you could hurt someone's feelings". We teach manners mainly by modeling. If she was upset and yelling at us we would tell her we know she's upset and then deal with the real issue not the yelling. A few months ago it really started helping to just say "are you angry? or you seem angry". A 3 year olds behavior is not an indication of their behavior as a teen. Your step mom probably made the situation worse. My DD would be very upset if some one other I or my DH started fussing at her.
post #8 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carley View Post
Everyone is totally different & everyone's kids are totally different.

While I agree that having parenting "attacked" (which is not what I pictured from your description) is hard, I also feel everyone who has ever had kids, no matter their theories or ideologies, has wisdom to share. It might not be for you, but there is always something to take away from it; especially when the experience/ideas shared by family.

For me parenting is always a subject that is open for discussion. I might not feel something is right for me but I always learn from the exchange of ideas; hence I frequent this board! I don't think I know all, and I don't think anyone does. For me being a flexible and open minded parent is a must.



Like Learning_Mum I don't want to be verbally or physically abused by anyone, even an emotionally unregulated toddler. I ask that DD speak to me nicely and I also tell her when she's being rude (to anyone) and that I (and anyone else) don't like being spoken to that way.

I definitely give her more chances to ammend herself when dealing with myself than I do with others. I am absolutely not ok with her pushing the limits of respect with her grandparents/family/friends etc.

For our family the "It Takes A Village" idea is very important. We don't raise our daughter to believe we are the end all be all, and we want her to understand everyone is as much part of the world as we are.

I also say "I know that you are tired / disappointed etc but it is not OK to speak to me / yell at me like that. Can you take a deep breath with me?" If that fails I ask "Do you need to have some quiet time in your bedroom?"

A lot of times she'll take a deep breath. Sometimes she loses her mind she has quiet time in her room, though "quiet" is used with irony.

Earlier today she lost her mind because she wanted her papa (grandpa who is at work). She unlocked & started running out of the front door. Clearly I had to catch her & held her while telling her it wasn't safe.

Sometimes the holding, soothing, deep breaths works with her, but some of the time it doesn't. I become the outlet for her fustration/anger/aggression, and that's not ok with me.

Today was an example of one of those times. She hit, kicked, screamed at the top of her lungs so I put her in her bed & told her she needed to stay there until she could calm down & be nice.

We used to set the timer for 3 minutes (she's 3), but it either went off way too early or way too late. Now we go the "self-regulated" route (regulated by both her and us).

So, this time she screamed, threw stuff in her bed, at one point screeched "IM GOING TO MAKE MYSELF THROW UP" and made a break for it 3 times (at which point I took her back into her bed [gently] & told her she may come out when she could stops screaming and be nice). I told her the third time I would close the door if she couldn't stay in her safe place herself and calm down.

Everyone is different, and I know a lot of people might think the whole staying in bed & door shutting is cruel. Some people might think it's too gentle!

Regardless, it works for us at this point and time. Within 5 minutes my daughter came out & said "I'm sorry I did that to 'ya Mama. I don't want to hurt you anymore... I love you" She always comes out understanding what's going on.

Parenting is so fluid. Things that work today might not work tomorrow. What works for some wont work for all.

I hope you find something that works for you!




ETA: Our pediatrician went over the "1 hour / day limit" on TV with my daughter and I at our last visit. With rare exceptions (movie night, etc) she only gets 1 hour a day. "Doctor's orders" helps divert the disagreement.
I would offer--and I know you may not agree--that she does come out understanding what's going on, but not necessarily what you intended-that expressing her feelings isn't OK and she needs to suck it up in order to get your love and approval.

I don't use the terms "verbal and physical abuse" lightly. I think a three-year-old gets a little bit more leeway--a lot more--than other people you might encounter.

I am always up for a discussion of parenting, but not a critique from my parents. That's a little too loaded for me.
post #9 of 18
Quote:
The only problem I see was that you and your stepmom were trying to get your DS to eat more when he was finished, and then made it into a behavior issue instead of letting your DS stop eating when he didn't want any more food
I agree. If he couldn't watch the movie no matter what that is different. however attaching eating the the movie watching doesn't make sense.
It was the non sense of it all that probably irritated him,
so if he was told, "sorry that's your movie time for the day" would he still tantrum? Maybe..but then you could be empathetic;
"I know it's bummer for you but we can do other things today, let's get the blocks"
Maybe he would still be mad I don't know but at least he isn;t being manipulated.
post #10 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by BetsyNY View Post
I would offer--and I know you may not agree--that she does come out understanding what's going on, but not necessarily what you intended-that expressing her feelings isn't OK and she needs to suck it up in order to get your love and approval.

I don't use the terms "verbal and physical abuse" lightly. I think a three-year-old gets a little bit more leeway--a lot more--than other people you might encounter.

I am always up for a discussion of parenting, but not a critique from my parents. That's a little too loaded for me.
Heh, no. She totally understands what's going on. We talk about our feelings a LOT.. we're chicks, you know? Syd & I are cool. We're also spitfires. Sometimes one of us (sometimes it's her, sometimes it's me) have had it. We lose our minds. I think everyone has a breaking point, but who knows We're all so different.

I aquired the skill of putting myself in time outs. It sounds funny, but I really trained myself to do it. My parents put me in time out when I did something "wrong." It didn't make any sense to me. Then as a (spitfire) adult I realized that I could really use time outs to emotionally regulate myself & think more clearly. The whole concept shifted for me. It's a really useful skill and experience in my life, so naturally I parent in this way.

We put Syd in time out so she can go all crazy someplace safe, get it all out, come back, understand she went all crazy and the world hasn't ended, know we still love her when she's all crazy and then come snuggle and talk about it (or not talk about it) if she wants to.

For us it's like "It's ok to be mad and fustrated! It's ok to be mad and jump around and growl like a bear with Mommy outside! It's ok to be fustrated and beat up pillows with Mommy's boxing gloves!" All of these options are awesome, even fun ways to cope with strong feelings... when they happen.

Sometimes she (& I) just goes bat sh** crazy It's just not ok to get all bat sh** crazy on people. That's the breaking point for us. That's when it's time to take a time out.

Anyway, thank you for your response Betsy It's really helpful for me to think about the ways I parent. Kids change so much so fast... what works today fails tomorrow It's all perspective, and I could use as much as that as I can get!
post #11 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by hipumpkins View Post
I agree. If he couldn't watch the movie no matter what that is different. however attaching eating the the movie watching doesn't make sense.
It was the non sense of it all that probably irritated him,
so if he was told, "sorry that's your movie time for the day" would he still tantrum? Maybe..but then you could be empathetic;
"I know it's bummer for you but we can do other things today, let's get the blocks"
Maybe he would still be mad I don't know but at least he isn;t being manipulated.

That's so funny! I would swear up and down the kid was just pissed off because he wasn't getting what he wanted
post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssh View Post
The only problem I see was that you and your stepmom were trying to get your DS to eat more when he was finished, and then made it into a behavior issue instead of letting your DS stop eating when he didn't want any more food. We let our DD completely self regulate her food intake. My DH and I are both overweight and we don't want her to have food issues or ignore her body when it says she's had enough.
I completely agree with this. The times we've said to the kids "you can do xyz after you eat something" we've almost always been hit immediately with "I'm not hungry." They're not dummies - he wants to watch a movie, you say he can watch a movie when he's done eating, so he decides he's "done" eating right now. He's either hungry but doesn't care because he just wants a movie, or isn't hungry and feels pressured to eat just so he can watch another movie.

Also, he's 3. He's staying in a strange house. I might have said "I don't like being yelled at" but that's as far as I would have taken it. I would have just picked him up and gone into another room to hang out with him while he calmed down.
post #13 of 18
I agree that you conflated the eating and movie and shouldn't have. If he'd come back to the table and eaten more, would have have gotten another movie? That's what you seemed to imply to him, so when he then said he was full, he was right (I think) to expect another movie. Then you still told him no. For my DS, that would've pissed him off, too.

As for your stepmom, I actually would've cut it off when she starting interrupting my parenting. I don't tolerate that, and it's only taken a couple of times of holding up my hand and saying "I've got it" for the adults around us to realize that I don't like others chiming in while I'm dealing with a situation with my children. It's demeaning to you for her to do that as if you can't handle it, and it's too much (and not fair) to your son to have more than one person making a fuss over something that's not a big deal.

For the other things, I think you have to decide based on your overall interaction with him. I don't allow my children to hit and push me because we're a non-violent family. They're included in that. Obviously there's leeway as they're learning impulse control, but it's definitely something I address.

OTOH, I know that I let my children talk to me in ways that neither my MIL or my mom approve. MIL has said several times that we shouldn't let DC say "no" to us, but that seems arbitrary to me. Just screaming no is unhelpful, sure, but no followed by a reason isn't. They still may not get what they want, but sometimes they do make points I hadn't considered, such as "no, Mommy, Daddy told me I could paint after I put on my clothes." Both my mom and MIL would consider that "talking back," but I don't. My children have opinions and thoughts just like everyone else. You have to decide where your line is, and if you're comfortable with the interaction, then that's all of the justification you need.
post #14 of 18
I like what Carley posted.

I think that there is almost a knee-jerk reaction for parents, stepparents, in-laws, etc. to offer unsolicited advice when your child is having a melt-down and they are the audience/recipient. I would say that in most cases they are trying to help you: their advice comes from a good place, even though we'd really rather not hear a word of it. It's really hard sometimes, in the heat of the moment, to recognize their motivation and accept their advice as well-meaning rather than judging.

For the first several months of DS's life, I was hyper, hyper sensitive to people offering advice. When DS would get worked up and cry, I would be totally on edge, and of course anyone who was around would tell me (like I didn't already consider these things ) "He's probably hungry!" "He's got gas!" "There's something wrong with him!" or my all-time least favorite (the one that instigated primal rage in me) "What did Mama do?!" There were several occasions in those first months where I snapped and said, "Seriously, back off! I don't want to hear it right now!" But I eventually regretted taking the advice as a personal attack on my maternal competence... Because it wasn't. They were all just trying to help my baby be happy again, and there's nothing wrong with that! Eventually I stopped taking it personally, and ever since, I've been a more confident Mama when the public melt-downs do happen. Not to say it doesn't ever make me cringe a little when they do offer it, especially when it's something like "You need to get him on a bottle!" or "You'll have to give him a good paddling or he'll never learn". But I can usually contain myself knowing where their advice comes from.


OP, I wouldn't take your stepmom's advice personally. She was just trying to help, and it sounds like she may have pointed something out to you that you hadn't considered before. It's always hard to hear criticism though.

I agree that you, as a human being, deserve your dignity. IMO, a 3 year old should be taught that other people deserve basic respect. That doesn't guarantee that he'll always give that respect, nor should we expect that he always will. But I do think it would've been appropriate for you to get down on his level and tell him something like, "Yelling at me is rude, and it's hurting my feelings. We don't talk to people like this." But there most definitely need to be alternative ways to express those strong emotions available to him, such as those described by PP Carley.

I agree with PPs who said that trying to make him eat more when he wasn't hungry isn't a great idea, but I do think that watching that second movie is up to Mama. But if you're prepared to tear him away from something he's really set on doing, you'd better have a good exchange, like going to play outside, and you've got to follow through.
post #15 of 18
Personally I don't let DS talk to me like that. I don't let anyone talk to me like that and I hope my DS would not, either. It's disrespectful.

I say something like "That's rude. Don't yell at me. If you need to calm down please do so in your room". If he doesn't stop then I walk him to his room and tell him to stay there until he can be polite. Or I walk off myself.

When he was younger and truly it seemed like he couldn't control himself then it was different. But now (3) he absolutely knows better.

I only do this if he's really over the top (which IMO your son was). If he's just frustrated and kind of loses the run of himself then I'm fine to rephrase for him.

I agree though that these kinds of things are your decision and your step mom should butt out!
post #16 of 18
Kids learn language earlier than they learn social skills. Sometimes, what comes off as rudeness is really just that.

However, they have to learn social skills somewhere, and that would be you. I would never punish for this or get upset, because it's understandable. But I would gently teach how to speak nicely to people. So I wouldn't do nothing, but I wouldn't get upset or consider him rude. He just hasn't learned yet. I would personally just tell him when something could be said nicer. "It doesn't sound nice when you say X. What would sound nicer is if you said Y."

And, yes, your stepmom should butt out.
post #17 of 18
If it doesn't bother you, then it's probably fine behavior to have with you. As long as you don't give in, that is! He might know that it's okay to vent his frustration to you this way. Now, if he starts doing it to OTHER people, like teachers or grandparents or babysitters, then you might have a problem. I think it's natural for our kids to feel safe venting to us...it's like escalated whining, which we all know is normal for them to do to us but not typically with other people.

Of course, if you don't want to be treated that way, then you can start working with him on shortening his outbursts. Like saying "you can be upset for a couple of minutes, but then I'm going to stop listening to your 'mad voice'".
post #18 of 18
I just hosted a party for a group of 4 year old boys, and 3 of the 6 moms kept punishing their kids for talking back. By talking back, they meant saying "no", or basically raising any complaint or disagreeing with what they were being told to do.

In my family, we don't do this. If my kids scream at me, I point it out. But I am totally fine with them arguing with me. For example, I would tell them it's time to go to town. Then my 4 yo might say, "I want to finish listening to this song first!" and then we could discuss from there. A lot of people might view this as talking back. I think it's perfectly lovely discussion.

The other thing I noticed is that the kids who were getting punished for talking back were also just deviously trying to do what they wanted anyway. And then, of course, getting punished for that. I prefer the honesty of being told no, at least
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