Perhaps a strange problem... but I really need help!

[MaryTheres]

DS1 is almost 4. He is a very bright, very verbal child. He was always a pretty well-behaved little guy, too. Lately, though, I have been having problems with him (alot due to the fact that I have a 10 week old!) Anyway, the one thing I am really having problems with is his behaviour around his "friends." Very often, lately, when he gets around his friends, particularly the boy friends, in his age group he starts acting nutty, i.e., crazy, giddy, uncontrollable. He does this "silly-defiant thing", which is he smiles at me as he runs about like a crazy kid doing destructive things, things that he knows he should not do, refuses to listen, refuses to cooperate, laughing his head off the whole time at me and my inability to control. Rns away from me laughing his head off when I ask him to come over to me. Seriously, I want to smack him! He only does this around children, mostly boys I think, his age. He whips himself up into a freenzy and the only way I get to control is generally to roughly grab him and threaten all sorts of punishments. Has anyone else dealt with this problem? Any suggestions on how to effectively control this, control him, with constantly screaming out threats and punishments (b/c I am tired of doign that and they do not seem to work all that well)? Seriously, I now understand parents that spank. Today he ran out into the street with one his buddies! And then down the street! He could have been hit by a car! I have a baby that is usually on my body so it is is difficult for me to handle this - I can't run after him very well and physicially it is hard to restrain him when I have the baby in his carrier on my chest. The 'friend' can make it worse, it seems. He has this one particular friend and they feed off of each other. Both start becoming uncontrollable. Please help me before I start spanking him! I find that I am really starting to resent him because of this.

[PikkuMyy]

I don't have a lot of time right now but I wanted to reply. Why not limit time he sees this friend right now? It sounds like with the new baby he's not in a position to handle it.

[lanamommyphd07]

pull back on the friends for a bit? Sounds like he's getting overstimulated-and perhaps a bit nervous that you're not as able to reign him in just now..might be a good time to have more "mommy" than friends anyway--

[proudmomof4]

Hugs, Momma... This is a time of adjustment for everyone involved.
Have you tried scheduling time for your older one yet? This does not need to be "big entertainment" - you are not compensating for the "burden" of having an ursurpator in the house now. You could try making some time for fun in the yard, a board game, some reading, ...

[vixnix]

M's a couple of months off 4 and L is seven months and I am so there with you on this. It is totally infuriating.

My only tip is to let go of trying to control the situation. I've heard that boys especially get a big testosterone surge at around 4 and become very defiant and oppositional. I found that 3 was all about having boundaries that were enforced, that gave M a sense of security and made him happy. Now being listened to and being given more control and more choices, being validated makes him more happy.

Something that has really been helping me lately is accepting that there is nothing wrong with him being out of control, laughing, running off, being defiant, leering and wigging out. It is completely within the realm of normal 4 year old behaviour. Then in those moments when he does things that make me roll my eyes or grit my teeth, instead of trying to clamp down on the behaviour and control the situation, I can react in a more playful and accepting way and he ends up being wayyyy more cooperative.

It feels so often like I have to "fix" something, but I don't. I just have to get along with him, I think. I'm still teaching, still talking about why we don't run off, why we don't leer at people, why it makes people uncomfortable if we slide around on the train seat blowing raspberries into the air, but the minute I try to stop the behaviour and control that situation it feels like he calls my bluff and keeps going, keeps testing to see what will happen next. And I don't seem to have anything else coming.

[MaryTheres]

Originally Posted by proudmomof4

HugsHave you tried scheduling time for your older one yet? This does not need to be "big entertainment" - you are not compensating for the "burden" of having an ursurpator in the house now. You could try making some time for fun in the yard, a board game, some reading, ...

Thank you so much for responding but, honestly, I am getting very tired of hearing this suggestion (no offense to you at all but whenever I complain on the interbnet I get this suggestion and it is a good one but it's just that I am doign that and he only ends up demanding more of me!) It's just that I am starting to feel very resentful - DS1 does get a collosal amt of my time and energy and I feel like the baby is getting more and more neglected b/c of him. And I do schedule mom and DS1 time on top of my way-too-often leaving the baby in a bouncy chair or swing to deal woth DS1! It makes me angry b/c it isn't fair to the baby. I can't talk or make a fuss over the baby or DS 1 starts acting crazy, no one else can make a fuss over the baby or DS1 starts acting crazy, I can't talk to baby or DS1 starts acting crazy ... all of my energy and focus feels like it is on DS 1 all of the time and I am suppose to give him more? DS1 no longer naps so it's all day all about DS1 I never get time to really focus on the baby... I understand it's hard for him and I am reading sibilings withou rivalry and it's helping somewhat... but you know what? I can't give him anymore than I am already giving him - he needs to give now.

I am really at my wit's end. He needs to start listening to me and doing what I ask. He used to be quite good at that so I know he is capable. It' s not like I ask that much and it's not like I expect a robot but seriously his behaviour is ridiculous. Everytime I ask him to something or ask him to stop doing something like hitting the baby, running away when it is time to go in for dinner, etc. he smiles or laughs at me and then does it more. And he is a million times more unruly around his friends (he's worse or better depending on the friend).

Anyway, sorry to rant.

[averlee]

Maybe it will make you feel better to know, your son's behavior is very common. When I taught preschool, it was my experience that (most) 4 year old boys were totally nuts. I had one group of boys that ran in a pack, throwing blocks, crashing into other kids, leering, teasing...I regularly lost my cool with these boys which is NOT okay as a teacher.
I agree with vixnix about how this is pretty normal, more developmental issue than disciplinary. Some developmentalists explain kids behavior by looking at how humans lived for millions of years- the role of a 4-year old boy, even just 100 years ago, included a lot of hard, physical work essential for the family's survival, perhaps hunting, carrying water, tending herds, building structures, gathering fuel, etc. usually alongside older boys and men. Boys thrive in preschools with male staff- I think in general, children need more men in their lives. Maybe boys especially need male guidance, boyhood is probably hard to negotiate. But this is society, not you! (Although if you know any teenage boys, I'd be begging them to take son to the park for some skateboarding.)
Something that helped a lot, was getting these boys to develop some interests. Two boys that regularly were out of control, loved this building set to roll marbles through, and would play together like normal people for a long time. Other boys did great at leggos, or cutting pictures out of magazines with scissors to make their own pictures & books. In a classroom, the most effective way to deal with the wild boys was to separate them, and give them all busy tasks that required concentration.
And mama, you are absolutely right. Your son needs to follow your directions and leave you alone sometimes. Hitting the baby, disrupting baby's feeding, and subjecting baby to jostling while making you chase him are totally uncool. Running out into the street also. There is a point where you can roll your eyes and try to put up with the nut, but there is a point where the behavior crosses from merely annoying, to fully unacceptable. I wish I had some concrete techniques or tricks for you. But I can tell you, sincerely, that spanking won't help. It might grab his attention for a minute, and might help you release tension, but as discipline it is totally ineffective. Kids who are spanked are a teacher's nightmare- they will not listen or take anything seriously knowing the teacher won't hit them!
Also, there is a ray of light, a glimmer of hope. Many boys mellow out completely as they grow up a bit, get comfortable with their independence, start school and learn to read & write. And, by the teenage years, many moms say boys are a LOT easier than girls.
Hang in there, mama. My heart goes out to you.

[mommy2naomi]

My DD is 3.5 and she's also become quite defiant lately although to the point that your DS is at. I would offer some constructive activities that he can do with his friends but also to let him know that if he persists with that type of behavior then he won't be seeing him for a day or two.

But in general, I would just let go a little bit. I think unless he's hurting himself or someone else, I would let him be free for now. He's probably feeling more independent and more like a big boy.

[jecombs]

OP, it really struck me how you used the phrase "out of control" in your posts. That probably describes exactly how your DS is feeling. With a new baby in the house, his world has been turned upside-down. Have you or your DH had a chance to really process with DS what having a new baby in the house means to him? Maybe have DS color some pictures of how the baby makes him feel and discuss it with him. It might be a good way for him to express himself.

It also seems like your DS is getting a lot of attention when he acts-out, which is understandable especially if he is doing something dangerous. But he is also getting a big pay-off from acting-out. You might want to think about how you respond, so that he is getting as little pay-off as possible when he is out-of-control. Honestly, if it were me, (no flames please) I would send DS to his room every time he acted out at home, especially if I felt like I wanted to spank him. That way he is getting no attention for the negative behavior and you are getting a little time-out. I would also continue to process with him how is feeling about the new baby and give him daily, scheduled 1:1 time.

What does your DH think about DS's behavior? Sometimes men have more insight on "typical boy behavior" than women. Would your DH be willing to have a man-to-man talk with DS about how we (the men) are expected to treat Mama? IME, man-to-man talks can really make an impact on boys. Daily "man time" with Daddy might also help your DS get himself back under control.

to you! If you get really desperate, don't be afraid to contact a family counselor and get some support that way.

[MaryTheres]

Originally Posted by averlee

Maybe it will make you feel better to know, your son's behavior is very common. When I taught preschool, it was my experience that (most) 4 year old boys were totally nuts. I had one group of boys that ran in a pack, throwing blocks, crashing into other kids, leering, teasing...I regularly lost my cool with these boys which is NOT okay as a teacher.
I agree with vixnix about how this is pretty normal, more developmental issue than disciplinary. Some developmentalists explain kids behavior by looking at how humans lived for millions of years- the role of a 4-year old boy, even just 100 years ago, included a lot of hard, physical work essential for the family's survival, perhaps hunting, carrying water, tending herds, building structures, gathering fuel, etc. usually alongside older boys and men. Boys thrive in preschools with male staff- I think in general, children need more men in their lives. Maybe boys especially need male guidance, boyhood is probably hard to negotiate. But this is society, not you! (Although if you know any teenage boys, I'd be begging them to take son to the park for some skateboarding.)
Something that helped a lot, was getting these boys to develop some interests. Two boys that regularly were out of control, loved this building set to roll marbles through, and would play together like normal people for a long time. Other boys did great at leggos, or cutting pictures out of magazines with scissors to make their own pictures & books. In a classroom, the most effective way to deal with the wild boys was to separate them, and give them all busy tasks that required concentration.
And mama, you are absolutely right. Your son needs to follow your directions and leave you alone sometimes. Hitting the baby, disrupting baby's feeding, and subjecting baby to jostling while making you chase him are totally uncool. Running out into the street also. There is a point where you can roll your eyes and try to put up with the nut, but there is a point where the behavior crosses from merely annoying, to fully unacceptable. I wish I had some concrete techniques or tricks for you. But I can tell you, sincerely, that spanking won't help. It might grab his attention for a minute, and might help you release tension, but as discipline it is totally ineffective. Kids who are spanked are a teacher's nightmare- they will not listen or take anything seriously knowing the teacher won't hit them!
Also, there is a ray of light, a glimmer of hope. Many boys mellow out completely as they grow up a bit, get comfortable with their independence, start school and learn to read & write. And, by the teenage years, many moms say boys are a LOT easier than girls.
Hang in there, mama. My heart goes out to you.

Thank you so much - this does help me at least feel better. Just for the record, I do not intend to hit or spank, I just meant that I now understand the propensity! I am just not creative enough on the spot to think of "playful" ways to get him to listen, i.e., I am thinking the next time I have trouble getting him to come into the house with me from the backyard (and away from his buddies) I could try makign it a game to 'race me' or 'race the clock' back to the house and then give him a little reward for 'winning' like a sticker (or see if the game will work without the 'reward' first) ... So I'll try that. And that is what I am kind of looking for, any little incentives and tricks like that to help out getting him to cooperate quickly without being "mean' to him, ya know? b/c I do not want to be the not-fun mom who is always threatening but at the same time he needs to cooperate more regularly.

And thank you for understanding that there is a point where the behavior crosses from merely annoying, to fully unacceptable. The mainstream people are like "punish that kid!" (which I don't like) and many attachment
parenting people are like "oh he just needs more of you..." and I just find it frustrating.

So, while the baby slept this morning (fortunately baby sleeps ALOT). We read books together and he loved this, just him and me. But then his buddy came over with his nanny and wanted him to play. So the nanny takes him out back and they play for almost an hour. I got to clean up the mornign mess and dishes! Anyway, then nanny drops him off crying and she had to run and take care of the buddy who had peed in his pants. So I bring DS in and ask him what happened and he tells me that buddy had an accident and nanny told DS that he had to go home b/c the buddy needed to be changed and needed some quiet/nap time. DS then tells me that he 'fought' with the nanny and cried b/c he didn't want to be sperated from the buddy and that he scratched her when she picked him to bring him to my house (b/c he refused to cooperate and walk). See this is unacceptable he can't do that. Basically he threw a complete tantrum and in the course of it scratched the nanny's arms. And he has done the same exact thing to me and I just never imagined he'd do it to a stranger (generally he behaves better for other people's moms and caretakers). I am really upset he did this! Thsi buddy and he are like inseperatable and when you try to seperate for dinner, nap etc. they both carry on like they are Romeo and Juliet. It is comical on a certain level but the behavour is ridiculous. He says he will apologize ot the nanny but I just really need to do something about this bad behavour!

[MaryTheres]

Originally Posted by jecombs

OP, it really struck me how you used the phrase "out of control" in your posts. That probably describes exactly how your DS is feeling. With a new baby in the house, his world has been turned upside-down. Have you or your DH had a chance to really process with DS what having a new baby in the house means to him? Maybe have DS color some pictures of how the baby makes him feel and discuss it with him. It might be a good way for him to express himself..

I feel that I do do this a la the Sibilings without Rivalry, we talk about how angry he is sometimes that baby is here but how he does still love baby so he is conflicted ... I let him tell me how he wishes he could throw babay out of the house and I tell him I undertsand, etc... We talk about it and we do art crafts about it. I also bought him a doll and and sometimes when he is angry at baby he makes the doll cry (it crys, laughs, and says mama and dadda). So I think I am doing relatively well with that. I think.

Originally Posted by jecombs

It also seems like your DS is getting a lot of attention when he acts-out, which is understandable especially if he is doing something dangerous. But he is also getting a big pay-off from acting-out. You might want to think about how you respond, so that he is getting as little pay-off as possible when he is out-of-control. Honestly, if it were me, (no flames please) I would send DS to his room every time he acted out at home, especially if I felt like I wanted to spank him. That way he is getting no attention for the negative behavior and you are getting a little time-out. I would also continue to process with him how is feeling about the new baby and give him daily, scheduled 1:1 time.

Yes, this makes a tremendous amt of sense and yes he is getting a lot of attention from acting out. I was thinkign of the doing the in the room thing (and do do it at times when I am really thinking I may lose it just to help me!

Originally Posted by jecombs

What does your DH think about DS's behavior? Sometimes men have more insight on "typical boy behavior" than women. Would your DH be willing to have a man-to-man talk with DS about how we (the men) are expected to treat Mama? IME, man-to-man talks can really make an impact on boys. Daily "man time" with Daddy might also help your DS get himself back under control. to you! If you get really desperate, don't be afraid to contact a family counselor and get some support that way.

Well, DH just starts removing privileges which clearly isn't working. He does think DS is doing most of it for attention b/c of the baby. I was spanked as a child so I guess that why I start feelign like I want to do that when I can't get him to cooperate or behave. DH was punished with removal of privilges hence his default! But for the most part that starts gettign senseless, imo, we start running out of things to take away some days!!! and clearly doesn't work all that well. It does sometimes - we do count and threaten if he doesn't comply he loses x priviklege and sometimes it works and sometimes it does not.... and clearly it isn't working in the long run .

[averlee]

I think you already have some good ideas here.
My mother in law says, she thinks her youngest- my hubby- really benefitted from taking karate classes. He really liked the teachers, it was a very masculine environment, and a huge focus on control- controling our own bodies, controling our anger and impulses, etc. And active time to channel aggression appropriately. Something like that might help your son, and would at least give you regular times for yourself & tiny babe.
However! Some moms say putting their kids in martial arts turns them into force-of-destruction whirling ninjas.
Another idea you could try, is to let him be out-of-control, under control. Crazy? I mean, like, let him rip an old phone book to shreds, beat the heck out of a falling-apart-pillow, smash ice with a mallet, toss and throw and scatter an entire box of cheerios on the lawn. These are things your son could do alone, or with a friend.
Sometimes sending to the room could be a good thing, especially if you are encouraging independent play. Like, designate some specific favorite toys that are never to leave the bedroom, or some really favorite pop-up books, or a Leap-pad reader. It isn't a punishment, the bedroom/playroom isn't a punishment place, it's fun and soothing and good. We can go there and feel better.

And about scratching buddy's nanny? I don't think it's totally your son's fault that she got scratched, just from what you wrote here. It's not OK to scratch people, obviously, but an experienced nanny should know how to handle a 4 year old's tantrum without getting injured. I don't mean to be snarky, I'm sure she's lovely. But kids are sometimes very spazzy and you gotta dodge quick!
Best wishes to you.

[Surfacing]

I haven't had time to read all the responses so sorry if you've already heard this.

Dd1 does this too, esp. at Grandma's house for some reason! At first it was sooo annoying and I'd get soooo frustrated. Now I just realize I'd better join in the fun. That's the only thing that stops it. I mock frustration and outrage, "Hey you little monkey! I'm gonna get you!" And I chase after her, catch her, drag her like a bag of potatoes or tickle her and then help her get her shoes on. In our case, to me it seems like a cry for attention, connection and play.

But I hear you. When you have the baby on you and you're tired it's HARD. BTDT

[Grace and Granola]

I haven't read all of the replies, but I had to comment. My son will be 4 in August, and I was just telling a neighbor (who also has a 4 yr old boy), that my ds seems to get really silly, aggressive, defiant when other boys are around. My ds is a very sweet, sensitive, bright kid, but when other kids are around, he gets silly like you described, almost hyper and so hyper that he CANNOT focus on me and what I'm trying to say to him. Just some examples as of late: at the zoo, running around with another little girl in our group, just being silly, not paying attention to other people in his path. Or today, 4 yr old boy came over and my ds was crashing his tricycle into the other boy's bike. This is not typical, and I think it's that he's so excited to be around these friends and that he's just a 4 yr old boy! I also have a two year old, so I do not have alot of energy for playful parening type stuff (I wish I did!). So here's what I've been doing, and it's working. At the zoo, I told my ds: If you run into another person because you're not paying attention, then you will have to get into the stroller for a while. (not my exact words, but you get the point.) He gets that one very calm warning, and if he does it, I follow through. With the kid on the bike: DS, if you crash your bike into B one more time, then you will have to get off your bike and take a break. He did, and I followed through. The more I follow through, the less resistance I'm getting from him as he's taking a break. The key is to stay calm, get down to his level, make it clear so he understands, and follow through. I have never been good at following through, but I'm now seeing the benefits. I hope you get some relief soon mama, hang in there!

[proudmomof4]

MaryTheres, I'm sorry I said exactly what you're already sick of hearing! It was just the first thing that came to mind.
So you are basically saying that you feel you are nearly "neglecting" the baby because of your older child. For your child, however, it will probably feel different because in the times "before baby" there was simply no-one to compete with for Mom's time and attention.
I agree that time with Dad or other "significant males" could help a lot. After all, we're talking "boys stuff" here.

[royalmommy]

For us, it helped to have DH do more with DS. I guess DH is more consistent than I am sometimes (due to fatigue probably), and so he behavior is better with DH around. And my parents live nearby, so he goes over (just him) to their house, gets to do projects with my dad, etc.
Having a routine has helped too. He has a chore to do every morning, after breakfast etc.
TV/dvds tend to make DS cranky, so we limit those.

I think someone suggested karate. That's a good idea too. Also if you have other classes available in your area-art, music....here there's a "rough and tumble" class (sports skills) for boys at the gymnastics place. It will give him a sense of accomplishment, as well as something fun to do to break up the day.

[BonMaman]

subbing now -- hope to post more later. I'm in a similar boat here. My DS1 just turned 4. he has a 2yo brother and a 4.5mo infant sister, so things are pretty lively here. : I often feel... hornswoggled. I'm sure DS1 senses this, and things can easily escalate. He will not willingly go to his room or remove himself from situations when instructed to do so. For me, the best way to diffuse situations is to offer some empathy, state the boundary, enforce it as gently as possible (this is difficult), not allow myself to be sucked into a battle of wills, and try to engage him in something else with me. Probably needless to say, I worry about meeting everyone's needs, not neglecting anyone, encouraging inappropriate behavior by paying attention to it, and all that (while trying to maintain a sense of sanity and levity). I try to be as proactive as possible but struggle in moments of conflict. Hang in there...

[camracrazy]

Maybe you could restrict his time with the friends that make him crazy to the times when you can be there 1 on 1. Like go over with him at a time when your DH can watch the baby for a little while. I would explain to the parents/nanny that you are having problems with DS listening and if he gets too wild you are going to take him home (that way they won't be shocked or feel like they or their kid has done something wrong if you suddenly leave). Then before you go over, get down on DS's level and look him in the eye. Explain exactly what behavior you want to see from him and what will happen if he misbehaves. (I know you probably have a million times before!!) Example: "DS, I need you to listen to me when we are over at friend's house. If you run off down the street then we will have to go home." Then when you get over to the friend's house be prepared to follow up. Give him a gentle verbal warning, and if he doesn't redirect his behavior, take him by the hand and say to Ds and his friend, "We need to go home now. Maybe we can try to play again tomorrow." Then take DS home. If he is having a major fit maybe lay him down on his bed or yours and just make sure he is is a safe place to let it all out. It may take a few trips like this but once he sees you are serious about taking him home (and that you actually can do it without the physical restraints of having the baby wrapped to you) then I would think he would decide that it isn't worth it any longer.

I also agree with trying to get him in to something where he can run and jump and be a little crazy safely. We have a local gymnastics center that has open play times where kids can come in and use the equipment without being in a class. Maybe you could find something like that to try and see if he likes it. Or a bitty football team? I don't know how old you have to be for football, but I know our local soccer league takes 4 yo's.

Good luck!