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Childbirth and "The Fall" in the Garden of Eden - Page 2

post #21 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegoat View Post
Although as the story goes, Adam and Eve were only able to fully exercise free will before the Fall.

Once they had actually gone and used their free will against what God had told them, they were hampered by the effects of that choice, unable to always control themselves fully or see clearly.
Are you saying we don't have free will?
post #22 of 36
Quote:
I guess I just always saw "knowledge" as "free will" and our loss of innocence was the connotations of that.
I always thought they had free will but no knowledge of their choices.
post #23 of 36
Birth is painful for other animals too, not just humans. But I think the way we evolved as humans, from walking on all fours to upright, was pretty hard on the human pelvis in a lot of ways. We got big heads and our pelvises just did not keep up. I do NOT think it had anything to do with a mythical garden. Birth just is. I cannot stomach relating it to a guilt thing. Ugh.
post #24 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by freestyler View Post
I do NOT think it had anything to do with a mythical garden. Birth just is. I cannot stomach relating it to a guilt thing. Ugh.
Thank you. I hesitated to post because I'm not a believer. Also, birth for me each time was short, intense but wonderful experience. In no way do I feel "punished" by the great other with childbearing. Birth just is!
post #25 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post
Thank you. I hesitated to post because I'm not a believer. Also, birth for me each time was short, intense but wonderful experience. In no way do I feel "punished" by the great other with childbearing. Birth just is!
My second birth was so painful I thought I was losing my mind, but it was still a wonderful homebirth. I would have been even more distressed had I thought this was a punishment from God. :

Sigh... raised a christian in a catholic family... the guilt is tremendous. I don't know where I belong, but... gah, this kind of stuff just upsets me.
post #26 of 36
Someone on these threads once noted that the Bible is inspired by God, but written by men, so that is a male's perspective on childbirth. The word "labor" in Latin, one of the languages that the Bible was translated into at one point, means pain in the sense of work, that a person needs to strive for something.

A midwife once told me that the Bible was focusing on what the world does to our children once we bring them into it. To me that made more sense. So the pain and work that brings our children into this world is only the beginning.
post #27 of 36
my childbirths were fairly physically painless. however, there was so much fear, from conception on about somehting happening and m,y baby being sick or my baby dying. can you imagine what pregnancy and childbirth could be like if you had no fear of death and sickness. if you never had to get sick, never had to be uncomfortable from treatment or prevention of sickness. if your heart never had to break?
post #28 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
Are you saying we don't have free will?
Not exactly, but rather it is compromised.

Calvinists of course say that we don't have free will- some think Adam and Eve did before the Fall, others say not.

Other denominations generally say that Adam and Eve had perfect free will, but we do not. So, for example, I might decide to go on a diet, and really want to, and somehow fail. My will can be overtaken somehow by my body or even my mind - say, through pride. This would not have happened before the fall - a person who did not want to eat that chocolate cake would not have had a problem not eating it.

Additionally, we sometimes are unable to see what the correct course of action is, even when we want to. So we may mistakenly create situations that were not our intention. Adam and Eve knew all the rules, because their relationship with God was untainted - they had not deliberately turned themselves away.

The RCs see this as part of the whole original sin package. The Orthodox, although they do not agree that we bear any guilt as in the Western original sin model, do believe that we bear the effects.

As Christians, we also believe that God will help us with this problem, but as far as I know, no one has ever been able to fully overcome it. I haven't, that's for sure.
post #29 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by caned & able View Post
Someone on these threads once noted that the Bible is inspired by God, but written by men, so that is a male's perspective on childbirth. The word "labor" in Latin, one of the languages that the Bible was translated into at one point, means pain in the sense of work, that a person needs to strive for something.

A midwife once told me that the Bible was focusing on what the world does to our children once we bring them into it. To me that made more sense. So the pain and work that brings our children into this world is only the beginning.
labor = work makes sense, since the other punishment was that man would have to work to have food...
post #30 of 36
Thread Starter 
In relation to the whole pain discussion- I don't view a painful childbirth as a punishment from God.

First of all, all of my guilt has been dealt with on the cross. God does not need to punish me for anything. And, as previously mentioned, it is not painful for everyone. I tend to go more along the lines of believing most of the pain comes from fear and the emotional & physical negativity we experience as a result of living in a less than perfect world...

I sometimes wonder, did God just give us what we asked for? After all, we wanted to have a knowledge evil. Is pain part of that?
post #31 of 36
I haven't really worked out my understanding of the story to my satisfaction, but this is the way I tell this part to my son:
"God said, 'Because you made this choice, life won't be so easy for you anymore. Instead of knowing only goodness, you will feel uncomfortable and difficult things too. Food won't be just ripe and waiting for you to pick it; you'll have to dig up the ground, plant seeds, take care of the plants while they grow, harvest the crops, store them away from bugs, and cook some of the foods before you can eat them; you will do lots of hard work just to eat. It won't be easy to have babies: growing a baby will make you tired, and you will have to work hard to push it out of your body, and you will have to take care of it for years, even when it is screaming and throwing up on you. The weather won't be pleasant all the time, so you'll have to make clothes to keep you warm and shelters to protect you from the wind and rain. Life will be more difficult because you chose to know about all things, good and bad. Now that you know more, you have more different kinds of experiences.'"
post #32 of 36
Quote:
First of all, all of my guilt has been dealt with on the cross. God does not need to punish me for anything.
A really big :
post #33 of 36
In the Baha'i Faith we are taught that the Biblical Eden story is a sacred myth which is largely allegorical and can be interpreted on a number of levels. I see it as basically the story of humankind's "coming-of-age", where we attained our present stage of development. Where we became truly conscious of such things as violence and death and sexuality, and those became moral issues, rather than the simple instinct-driven facts of life they are for other creatures on this planet.

It can also be seen as the story of every individual human soul as it leaves the innocence of childhood and develops into a fully-conscious, rational soul responsible for its own choices between good and evil.

As for the childbirth question, I believe that the pain most women experience in childbirth comes from our physiology, which was set well before the time of the Eden story (5000-6000 years ago). Pain is just a part of this life that we must all go through. It teaches us lessons that pleasure cannot. Things like detachment, meekness, humility, trust, patience. Without pain and sorrow, we wouldn't recognize peace or joy, just as Adam and Eve, not knowing sin and evil, neither knew virtue and good.

Baha'is don't believe in human pre-existence on an individual basis, so that makes this life the first we experience as individual souls clothed in human bodies. We don't believe in original sin. God's plan for us has never changed, as it is perfect, and so there was never a time when humans were anything other than... human. Even before humanity evolved to its modern physical form, our souls have always been distinctly human, different from any other created being, either animal or angel. Perhaps there was a time when our heads were smaller...
post #34 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnviroBecca View Post
I haven't really worked out my understanding of the story to my satisfaction, but this is the way I tell this part to my son:
"God said, 'Because you made this choice, life won't be so easy for you anymore. Instead of knowing only goodness, you will feel uncomfortable and difficult things too. Food won't be just ripe and waiting for you to pick it; you'll have to dig up the ground, plant seeds, take care of the plants while they grow, harvest the crops, store them away from bugs, and cook some of the foods before you can eat them; you will do lots of hard work just to eat. It won't be easy to have babies: growing a baby will make you tired, and you will have to work hard to push it out of your body, and you will have to take care of it for years, even when it is screaming and throwing up on you. The weather won't be pleasant all the time, so you'll have to make clothes to keep you warm and shelters to protect you from the wind and rain. Life will be more difficult because you chose to know about all things, good and bad. Now that you know more, you have more different kinds of experiences.'"
This is excellent. I totally agree. Thanks for putting it this way; I'm printing this out to share with my kids, if that's OK.
post #35 of 36
Absolutely, Bekka! Glad you can use it! I have to give credit for the main idea (that the "knowledge of good and evil" means "being able to see what is lacking, instead of experiencing everything as perfection") to my second cousin, who blogged about her musings during Lent a couple of years ago. She's a very strict Catholic, and I rarely agree with her religious views, but in this case I really learned something!

So when I tell the story to my son, after eating the fruit, "Adam and Eve began to feel funny. Everything looked different and felt different. Eve said, 'Gosh, I never noticed before, but the clouds are sort of...cloudy. I don't like them. And look at those ants! They're so crawly and gross!' Adam said, 'Gosh, I never noticed before, but the dirt is so...dirty. And look at you! You're naked! Ewww, put on some clothes! Eek, I'm naked too! How embarrassing!'" My son finds this hilarious, of course, but I think it probably was kind of like that--while still in Eden, they were already "expelled from paradise" by their choice, which made them see even paradise as lacking in some ways.
post #36 of 36
I love the past thoughts expressed here on guilt, etc. I would also like to add that just as I don't feel guilt while pulling weeds in the yard, I didn't feel guilt during giving birth to my daughter. Where there is grace, there need be no guilt.

Back on the thoughts of whether or not sex occurred pre-fall, I would have to say yes. Otherwise, having pain in childbirth be greatly increased would make no sense. It assumes that at least knowledge of sex and childbirth already existed.
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