How to handle outright defiance

[Awaken]

I"m out of ideas.

What do I do when my kids defy me to my face. They are 6 and 3. I feel like by using GD (well, I try to- can't say I'm successful 100% of the time, but it's my goal) I don't have much at my disposal to respond to that type of behavior.

For example just now, we were about to to on a walk and while getting ready my 3 yo is banging the dog's metal bowl on the tile floor, deafening all of us and the poor dog who is very sensitive to noise was really scared. I asked him kindly to please not bang the bowl so loud b/c it was hurting to doggy's ears, and he laughed at me and did it louder. None of my kind, pleasant requests met with a response, and he wouldn't let it go so I ended up having to grab it from him.

While walking, my 3 yo runs up to someone's yard and rips the leaves off the plants. I ask nicely for him to touch the flowers gently and show him, and of course he laughed and further destroyed the plant.

Then they both try to push each other off a 4 ft wall onto the cement because they're fighting over who should be first. I suggest ways to take turns, work together, etc but they say "no!" and continue hurting each other.

Or, the 3 yo purposely destroys what someone else has made.

These same scenarios play out repeatedly. Usually, if we're about to do or get something fun, we don't go or get to have it if they act like this. But when we're just out, that doesn't really apply. I don't really feel like I have any way to enforce what I say, and talking about respecting me because I'm their mother and it's my job to guide them in right behavior- obviously they couldn't care less. And my older one will go on and on and on when I attempt to talk it out with him calmly, about how mean and rude I am and how he's not going to do anything I say, etc.

I'm very sensitive to them being hungry, or overtired as a cause for undesirable behaviors, so take that into account. I''m also fairly relaxed, and don't have a lot of do's and don't's- I really do try to save my "no's" for when they are hurting someone or someone's property, but it seems like by being lenient with small things, when I do really mean "no" they completely ignore it.

[Ruthla]

I think they're testing boundaries- and once they see that you mean business, they'll listen better. This is perfectly appropriate at both of their ages.

For the 3yo, I'd try really hard to tell him what he should do, rather than what he shouldn't. Instead of "don't bang the dog dish on the floor" try saying 'leave the dog's dish alone." If he keeps on banging it, remove the dish and put it out of his reach.

If they're fighting over who gets to walk on the wall first, neither of them gets to walk on it.

If he's ripping plants, you pick him up and physically take him away from the plants, while telling him 'Gentle with the plants, or you can't touch the plants at all."

What I'm hearing is that you're reling on verbal cues to tell your children to stop innapropriate behavior, and they're not responding. If they don't respond to one calm request, the next step is to physically remove the child from the situation. Don't wait until you're already overwhelmed and angry because they've been ignoring your words- PLAN ON having to physically get involved after 1-3 verbal reminders of appropriate behavior, and do so calmly.

[Surfacing]

Excellent post Ruthla. ITA about testing boundaries and needing to show you mean business calmly and consistently through action in order to have it respected.

I will also add that over here, I give dd1 (age 4) a chance to "redo". If she is not listening or behaving rudely, I'll say, "Hmmm I don't like how this is going. Let's try it again and you show me your good listening skills this time." I know, when you're desperate you'll try almost anything! But it works quite often. Also over here we put "good listening skills" on her "chore list" (which she requested!) as part of her weekly 25 cent allowance (which she also requested). It's amazing how frequently reminding her of that results in prompt cooperation!

[NellieKatz]

Escalation

This sounds like my 6 year old. However, if I were to lift him up and physically remove him, he'd take a swing at me or pinch, bite, whatever. He has never liked being "man-handled" and, though this tendency will serve him well if a stranger tries to grab him, it's a problem for us.

I am really on the fence right now, extremely confused. We've always been what we thought were fair parents. Attachment parents, not arbitrarily saying to do this & that, or bossing around, but instead treating him like a person. You see, we were both raised in traditional, top-down authority type families. Mine moreso than my husband's. It was obey or ELSE. But we've not wanted to be that way. I think, as a result, we over emphasized what we thought was reasonableness, and left our child with the impression that we didn't have to be listened to. Whoops! So in avoiding a rigid, super-authoritarian, punishment/spanking model, we swerved way too far the other way, I guess. I mean, we always thought that if WE modeled consideration, and sharing, and helping, and all the other stuff that we wanted him to learn, that he'd pick those things up. And if we said to do something, well why wouldn't he!? (DUH!!!) Clearly we did a few things wrong along the way. Wonderful child, but low on awareness of "parents in charge." OK, so I get that.

We never wanted to be what we call punish-y. That is, the threat of punishment lurking behind every request. But now he thinks he rules the roost! (And I am sure it's less than reassuring for him to have this position.) However, despite this desire not to be punish-y, how can we convince him that sometimes things just have to be done? Like, if I ask him to do something and he doesn't do it (and sometimes it's for his safety, like today when he started to run off into the rainy, very busy parking lot), I have few options except to punish. I do not WANT to be parenting out of punishments and rewards...I want him to learn to be good and to learn the right thing INTERNALLY, not out of coercion. Yet sometimes I really need him to fall into line. I am NOT willing to stand by idly while he runs off into the parking lot and some cell-phone yakking person in a large vehicle who can't see him runs him over.

And other times, when we've scheduled a family event, or made an appointment, or are attending some kind of performance......we cannot tolerate him deciding he'd like to just run off and play in the halls or disturb the other patrons. Or decide he doesn't want to get into the car, and makes us late. You get my drift. There are some areas where parents ARE running the situation, they're aware of the time constraints and the rules and they just need the kids to friggin sit down and behave!

BTW, who are these other six year olds sitting quietly with their parents? Are they just cowed into compliance? I mean, I have always loved my son's outgoingness and independence; these traits will serve him well. I don't want him to be a blind follower or break his spirit. But sheesh, there are times I just want to say what needs doing and have him do it.

So, somewhere between our peaceful, wonderful Attachment Parenting babyhood and now, we've done something wrong and now conflict is the order of the day. My authoritarian Dad is whispering to me into one ear (from beyond the grave, I might add) and Alfie Kohn is whispering into the other. Helpp!!!

[BonMaman]

This thread is so relevant for me right now with my 4yo (and two younger bambini). I identify so strongly with NellieKatz. I love the suggestion by Surfacing to start over; I do this sometimes but will try to cultivate it into a more habitual response to inappropriate behavior.

[Surfacing]

Originally Posted by NellieKatz

I am really on the fence right now, extremely confused. We've always been what we thought were fair parents. Attachment parents, not arbitrarily saying to do this & that, or bossing around, but instead treating him like a person. You see, we were both raised in traditional, top-down authority type families. Mine moreso than my husband's. It was obey or ELSE. But we've not wanted to be that way. I think, as a result, we over emphasized what we thought was reasonableness, and left our child with the impression that we didn't have to be listened to. Whoops! So in avoiding a rigid, super-authoritarian, punishment/spanking model, we swerved way too far the other way, I guess. I mean, we always thought that if WE modeled consideration, and sharing, and helping, and all the other stuff that we wanted him to learn, that he'd pick those things up. And if we said to do something, well why wouldn't he!? (DUH!!!) Clearly we did a few things wrong along the way. Wonderful child, but low on awareness of "parents in charge." OK, so I get that.

We never wanted to be what we call punish-y. That is, the threat of punishment lurking behind every request. But now he thinks he rules the roost! (And I am sure it's less than reassuring for him to have this position.) However, despite this desire not to be punish-y, how can we convince him that sometimes things just have to be done?

Oh boy can I relate NellieKatz. This is *exactly* what happened here with dh and I. I decided that in order to remedy I had to insist on certain things, endure the ensuing melt down... but when she realized that I was not going to budge on it despite her protests, she learned to accept.

When the child is running away and you want them to come, you can make it into a game and chase them. But ... oops I want to post more but dh just arrived and I have to go. More later, hopefully!

[MammaV]

I feel that there is still a place for boundaries, especially when respecting other people's property and their person and being safe. My kids have to walk beside me and maybe even hold my hand if they cannot walk safely. We do not have sidewalks in my neighborhood and so we have to walk in the street. We all have the job of watching for cars and my two year old will shout out "car" when he sees one or when the other kids do.
Though modeling behavior is a key in GD and AP, it's been also important in my parenting to teach the kids about things, like what it means to be considerate or whatever. We talk about things when they are not an issue and brainstorm ideas. Focusing on good behavior is a big help for us too. "Catching" them and instilling a sense of accomplishment for making good self monitoring choices helps them make better choices when they're not "caught". Really focusing on the behaviors I'm teaching my kids to exhibit and less focus on their negative behavior works for us.
It sounds like you're pretty frustrated and exhausted from the dynamic. It will take time to see some behavior changes. Taking some dedicated time to talk with the boys about your expectations with their behavior and having them come up with solutions, gives them responsibility and ownership.

I also like time ins. We sit in a circle with a toy and pass it around. Whoever is holding the toy gets to talk. The kids can vent with respect and can find all sorts of solutions. It stops the shouting matches and because we're sitting, we're not pushing.

Just a side note: 3yo boys destroying things is perfectly normal. We used to spend a long time creating art projects just so that we could have a tear it up party. Huge block towers are great to destroy. If he has something he can destroy, it might help him not destroy other's things. It helped my willful DS.

[artgoddess]

I always believed that gentle discipline is not the same things as no discipline. If there are no natural consequences for damaging things or disturbing the household pets then just hearing mommy say, "please stop" may not be enough.

If my child cannot stop themselves from destroying someone's yard on a walk, they are scooped up and carried home that moment. It's not a "punishment" it's learning that damaging another person property is not acceptable behavior. Of course I would discuss and explain why it's not okay to harm the plants first, but if they laughed and continued then they are clearly not getting the message and I need to do something else, like remove them from the situation.

[ShadowMom]

At 3 years old I think that consistency is the key. The fact that they don't listen is actually sort of irrelevant, believe it or not. You are setting the stage and establishing guidelines. Children frequently seem to not listen - they have very poor impulse control, they are exploring and learning and testing.

Even though 3 seems like a child should know, still at that age it was more doing and less talking. Instead of explaining about the plant, for instance, I would have immediately blocked my DS from being able to continue the behavior, while at the same time explaining, "Remember to be gentle with plants. Gennnnnnntle hands." I would have demonstrated, if possible, how to touch plants (if you're comfortable with them touching at all). If appropriate, I would have simply scooped him up (at 3 I did that for a lot of things).

With the dog bowl, it depends on what your dog bowl rule is. If you don't allow children to play at all with the dog bowl (which is how it was in my house when I had dogs), I would have simply reminded him, "Don't forget! We don't play with the dog bowl. The dog bowl is for the doggies! People bowls are for people." Then maybe I would have gotten him a drum or a pot with a spoon to bang on. Depending on the situation. If you do allow him to touch the bowl, I would intervene, prevent him from slamming it down again (immediately, before saying anything), and THEN say, "Don't forget, we don't slam the dog bowl down. We set it down gently. Can yo ushow me how to set it down gently?" Or something along those lines.

IMHO reinforcing boundaries can be done in a friendly, "Oops! You must have forgotten/are having a bad day/just couldn't help your" tone of voice. The reason I strive for this (not always successful) is because children really do want to do the right thing, they just have a roundabout way of getting there sometimes. To me, it is all about consistency and gentle guidance.

HTH mama.

[nighten]

Originally Posted by artgoddess

I always believed that gentle discipline is not the same things as no discipline. If there are no natural consequences for damaging things or disturbing the household pets then just hearing mommy say, "please stop" may not be enough.

If my child cannot stop themselves from destroying someone's yard on a walk, they are scooped up and carried home that moment. It's not a "punishment" it's learning that damaging another person property is not acceptable behavior. Of course I would discuss and explain why it's not okay to harm the plants first, but if they laughed and continued then they are clearly not getting the message and I need to do something else, like remove them from the situation.

That's where we are. We've recently started implementing time outs for toys. Kind of. If she's misusing a toy (slinging it around when she knows she's not allowed to do that, especially around her 4 month old sister) then the toy goes in a box marked TOYS on top of the fridge. Her actions earned the toy being removed from her. When she behaves kindly or does something nice, on her own WITHOUT BEING PROMPTED BY US (that's the key), she will earn back a toy from the box.

We've always does Time Outs as voluntary, to calm down, take a breather. But recently she's simply refused to stop or sit or be calm. And continues to constantly test boundaries. It feels like everything's turning into a battle. And I try to not hold so tight (because I do have the "mean what I say, say what I mean" approach) or set myself up with false threats, so choosing battles is key. But holy crap, my precious little three year old is battling everything.

There are times when I feel like GD has failed us. And I end up yelling at her and doing the traditional involuntary Time Out. So at the least I am trying very hard to focus on how it's her behavior -- her choosing to misbehave -- that results in toys being removed, just as it's her behavior that results in earning them back.

I admit, too, that I'm relying more and more on the Vague Rule Maker: I catch myself saying, "Sorry honey but that's The Rule" as if there's nothing I can do about it. It feels like I'm cheating though, but I admit it has worked in some cases...

I'm heartened to see so many threads in there about 3 year olds though. Hopefully it's a phase. Just a phase, and one day we'll wake up and we can go back to enjoying our days a lot more.

ETA: I totally hear the PP talking about using gentle reminders, and that is exactly where I was a few months ago. But despite being precious toward her new baby sister, my three year old is willfully and actively disobeying us. It's not a case of being forgetful. It's that she'd told "We don't do XYZ" and then she immediately, willfully, does it. She's moved into the pushing boundaries full force realm. I know some children do this, and some don't, and the ages vary. I just pray that it's a very short phase.

[AngelBee]

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[nd_deadhead]

Originally Posted by nighten

ETA: I totally hear the PP talking about using gentle reminders, and that is exactly where I was a few months ago. But despite being precious toward her new baby sister, my three year old is willfully and actively disobeying us. It's not a case of being forgetful. It's that she'd told "We don't do XYZ" and then she immediately, willfully, does it. She's moved into the pushing boundaries full force realm. I know some children do this, and some don't, and the ages vary. I just pray that it's a very short phase.

I am convinced that a 3-yr-old has no concept of the word "Don't". If you say "Don't jump on the bed" and the chid continues to jump on the bed, it;s not because she's being defiant - it's because those were the last words she heard, and she can't think of an alternative by herself. That's OUR job.

Instead of "don't" commands, we tried very hard to always use "Do" commands: sit on your bottom, jump on the cushions on the floor, pet the dog gently. My favortie replacement for "don't touch" was "That's just to look at". My brother had a mean cat and and old, blind, cranky dog, and my kids learned at a very young age that China and Woofer were just to look at - they never touched either one (even though we had a Lab who put up with anything).

Quick story - my twin boys were "helping" my mom plant flowers in the garden, and she gave them earthworms to play with. They brought them in the kitchen to show my Dad, who exclaimed over what nice worms they were - then he got serious and said "Don't eat the worm!" Both boys got looks of disgust on their faces (it had never occurred to them to eat the worms); a few minutes later we heard my mom laughing in the garden. B had dirt all over his face; she had seen J spit the worm out of his mouth. When asked what happened to his worm, B proudly said "My ate it!" They never heard "don't"; all they knew was that Grandpa said "... eat the worm... eat the worm..."

[nighten]

nd_deadhead, Please know I appreciate your response to my post, and believe me, you are welcome to search my past posts in this and the toddler forum to know you're preaching to the choir.

Typically the wording I've used is, "We never hit. We use gentle touches like this. We never hit. Hitting hurts." and so forth. Relying on the actual consequences (hitting hurts), reinforcing how it's a rule we all follow (using "we"), focusing on what we do instead that is acceptable (gentle touches) and the real results (not just my feelings about the actions), and modeling it, reinforcing that with using "we" language. Consistently classic GD. And it has for the most part, worked really well. Until the last few months.

Maybe many children at age three don't understand "don't." Maybe they react the same as in the situation where parent says, "If you do XYZ, I'll do <insert punishment>" and what the child hears is "If you do XYZ, Mama will do something too in reaction" and not comprehend fully that the reaction is a negative. And I suspect that up to two or so (depending on the child) that remains the case. And until recently would've said age three even.

So believe me, I hear you. But this is where I feel like GD on that level has failed us. My three year old very much understands the concept of don't. She uses the word correctly herself, in the proper context. She gets it. Trust me. She really does. She also understands a rule is a rule. And there are some rules that are steadfast. (Like holding hand in a parking lot, etc.) But I give her the benefit of the moment at times, if she's excited or distracted, and so forth. But immediate, willfully doing precisely what she has just been told not to do ("We never hit! Hitting hurts. Please do not hit me. If you want me to keep reading the story to you please use your gentle touches with me" followed by a big freaking smack to me).

And I still strive to focus on the positive. Instead of saying, "If you continue to throw your Thomas, he'll have to go in the box," I try to make a point to say, "If you want to keep Thomas out of the box, please play with him gently" and a reminder of how we take care of our things, and don't want to hurt our baby sister, or break our toys, etc.

But the willful disobedience scares the crap out of me nowadays. We live on a very busy street. In the past I've only had to say STOP! in a stern voice and she would stop instantly. Now I say STOP! and she blatantly ignores me. She hears me. She laughs. And runs away from me. All the while ignoring what I'm saying. And running towards the road. If she won't obey me inside where it's safe, and she's willfully disobeying me outdoors by the busy road....

See where I'm going? Someone tell me this phase is really short, please.

I guess what I'm saying is I've followed GD in its many forms, in attempts to help my child learn to do things because they are right things to do -- not out of fear of punishment, or to get approval from others. And right now, this stage she's in, is really painful because none of my tried and true GD methods are working at all. We knew from the get-go we were choosing the harder path; we had agreed upon a form of discipline that wasn't reliant upon punishment nor reward, but would make her a stronger person, and less likely to fall prey to peer pressure, and better able to make decisions on her own morals.

But right now I am finding that despite all the books and idealistic intentions, her behavior is worsening. I broke down the other night and sobbed to my husband that our child wasn't learning to be self-reliant and confident. She was acting spoiled and hateful. I know that's not how she is all the time, nor is it WHO she is, but in that moment, after a day of constant struggles, that's how it felt. And it broke my heart and I felt like a huge failure.

(Sorry, OP, for hijacking with my own issues, but you are not alone. We'd also been having sleep issues with her again but thankfully those seem to be better.)

[BetsyNY]

I have no idea if the phase is short or not. I do know that I'm right in the middle of it and HATING it!

BUT I don't think it's gentle discipline's fault. I think that some imposition of negative consequences appeases our adult sense of control, but it also creates another level of frustration for everyone...if we're talking about defiance, now it's time to go sit in the chair or corner or what have you, and is a child who's just defied you going to go sit willingly in the time-out chair?

[mom2grrls]

So believe me, I hear you. But this is where I feel like GD on that level has failed us. My three year old very much understands the concept of don't. She uses the word correctly herself, in the proper context. She gets it. Trust me. She really does. She also understands a rule is a rule. And there are some rules that are steadfast. (Like holding hand in a parking lot, etc.) But I give her the benefit of the moment at times, if she's excited or distracted, and so forth. But immediate, willfully doing precisely what she has just been told not to do ("We never hit! Hitting hurts. Please do not hit me. If you want me to keep reading the story to you please use your gentle touches with me" followed by a big freaking smack to me).>>>>>

I think what helps is to rethink your 3 y/o's behavior not as defiant but normal and impulsive. She may understand what words mean but 3 y/o's still have a way to go with controlling those impulses to do what they want. Ages 2-4 is hard, 5 gets better. My advice is keep your sentences short like-hitting hurts use gentle touches(don't explain). If that doesn't work then move onto another activity(if she hit you while reading a story, put down the book and say let's go outside to run). Pick your battles also, focus on what is really important(something like safety) but let them wear a crazy outfit to the store. Don't give her a chance to run to the street, only play in the backyard and carry her to the house from the car until the phase passes.

[nighten]

Originally Posted by mom2grrls

I think what helps is to rethink your 3 y/o's behavior not as defiant but normal and impulsive. She may understand what words mean but 3 y/o's still have a way to go with controlling those impulses to do what they want. Ages 2-4 is hard, 5 gets better. My advice is keep your sentences short like-hitting hurts use gentle touches(don't explain). If that doesn't work then move onto another activity(if she hit you while reading a story, put down the book and say let's go outside to run). Pick your battles also, focus on what is really important(something like safety) but let them wear a crazy outfit to the store. Don't give her a chance to run to the street, only play in the backyard and carry her to the house from the car until the phase passes.

Another site I belong to has also been offering reassurance that age three (especially when following a relatively easy age two) can be extremely difficult. Knowing that makes me feel better. We are picking our battles. Clothing is not one -- we let that go a long while ago. But I agree that's the most important thing right now -- choosing battles. It's hard in the moment because she melts down over things that never occur to me could be potential battles. :/

The hitting thing often happens right before bed or in the middle of the night. The problem is she is freaking out over change in any form, so trying to adjust our routines to help prevent whatever's triggering the behavior causes more issues.

The yard/street thing is a challenge because our backyard isn't fenced in. And it's compounded by the fact that I've got a 4 month old to watch out for too (and I can't run as fast with an infant strapped to me).

There are some rules I cannot compromise on right now. And another challenge is doing what I say. If I don't, then I'm teaching her I'm not consistent and she doesn't really have to listen to me. Yes, I'm human, but this testing boundaries time doesn't mean I should change boundaries midstream. It's really hard. How can you adjust/rethink routines to help prevent the behavior, when child resists change, and yet keep boundaries the same when it comes to safety, so the child knows there are some things that are consistent rules...? I know that some rules change as she gets older but anytime I bring up getting older/bigger she freaks. This is a really hard time. The OP is not alone by any stretch.

I do agree that reasoning with a three-year-old doesn't work in the midst of a meltdown, and reasoning/explaining is an adult thing -- a habit. But I still try, after the fact, when she's calm, to talk to her about why it's very important she do what I say, and offer her reassurance and all that. I don't think it's terribly respectful to just say "Because I said so." I want her to know that Mama has her best interests at heart and doesn't want anything bad to happen to her, etc. I want her to know she can trust that I do not lie to her. That I mean what I say and why I say it.

But my interpretation of GD -- the way we've done it from the get go -- is not working right now. We're really struggling with rethinking some things to accommodate this stage. And it's disheartening. I'm hoping very much that this phase will be brief and something will click and things will start getting more manageable soon.

[Awaken]

Wow, thank you all so much for your great input! I'm sorry I wasn't able to respond sooner. I've been reading the responses though, and it's very encouraging. Even just knowing that other people are struggling with the same things with their 3 yo's helps.

I pretty much agree with all of you- and NellieKatz- I just want to ditto your entire post!!!

I definitely agree that just using words is not going to be effective, instead of me actually showing him/helping him/removing him from the situation. Sometimes the issue is I can't be 1 foot away from him at all times! Like I'm making the lunch they're asking for, that's when he was throwing the dog bowl and I can't stand over him because my hands are full. Or, I'm enjoying the plants with my older son, and it's not fair to have him need to leave the situation when he's being very gentle and enjoying it.

I find it hard to balance me actually needing to care for another child and give my other son attention, and do essential things in the house, (and soon to be another one) and be right next to a 3 yr old at all times to make him behave at the same time. Nothing would ever get done if I did that so yes, sometimes I do have to just rely on words at the moment! The problem is, by the 3rd time of nice reminders, I don't usually end up removing him or te offending object calmly- at that point I'm usually pretty annoyed and do it with a sense of frustration- so obviously I'm part of the problem and need to, and am, working on that!

The funny thing is, I am always the one who inwardly rolls their eyes when parents at the park just sit there and yell directives at their young kids, who don't listen one bit, and I'm thinking "they need to get up and show the kid or remove him!!" so I definitely am someone who believes in actively parenting, esp. with a young child who is not just going to obey because I say so!

I really appreciate the suggestions of how to change my wording to say it in a more positive way, instead of "don't do this". I think that will help, and also make it feel less confrontational and more conversational. I do find I end up relying on ultimatums and that does not make me feel good. "If you don't do what I'm asking, we won't do the fun thing we planned" Or maybe that's ok, I don't know. But I know I do tend to overuse it and need to expand my repertoire instead of resorting right away to things or activities being taken away.

It's just hard to think of more serious behaviors down the road when they're older...right now it's being gentle with others, toys, etc but what about when they're driving a car or out on their own with friends. how does GD work at that point when I have little physical control over what they do and where they go??? Hopefully all of this is laying the foundation for those years.

[artgoddess]

Originally Posted by Awaken

I find it hard to balance me actually needing to care for another child and give my other son attention

This is the part I find most difficult since becoming the mother of two. I always fear someone is getting the short end of the stick.

[nd_deadhead]

Originally Posted by Awaken

It's just hard to think of more serious behaviors down the road when they're older...right now it's being gentle with others, toys, etc but what about when they're driving a car or out on their own with friends. how does GD work at that point when I have little physical control over what they do and where they go??? Hopefully all of this is laying the foundation for those years.

My twin sons are 14 years old (almost 15!). I sincerely believe that a positive discpline approach works just as well for older kids as it does for younger ones. First of all, DH and I have a relationship with our kids that is based on respect and trust - in both directions. They trust that we always have their best interests in mind (even if it takes a few years for them to see how our decisions are for the best). Because we have always explained the reasons for our rules - and respected their opinions enough to allow them to question those reasons - they don't make a big fuss about the rules we do lay down. In most cases, we make rules together.

Part of the "respect" part means including them in many aspects of our lives, decision-making processes. We eat at least one meal together almost every day, which gives us the opportunity to feel comfortable talking about a wide range of ideas. Sometimes we don't talk about anything specific; other times we can get into deep discussions about addiction, or morality, or different parenting styles. We listen to and value their opinions.

That doesn't mean we're trying to be their best friends - far from it. But we do have a relationship with our kids where we enjoy doing things together, and enjoy each other's company. And we DO fun things together.

Punitive discipline, IMO, tends to teach kids to not get caught, or they might decide that the crime is worth the punishment. GD/positive discipline teaches kids how to behave appropriately in different situations not because they will get in trouble if they don't, but because they understand it's the right thing to do. It's a slow process, but SO worth it! Kids who learn that behaving appropriately brings its own rewards (for example, a polite, respectful child is invited on a fun weekend with a best friend's family).

We are all familiar with the phrase "you live with the consequences of your actions". If you're like me, when you hear this you think about getting in trouble of some kind for screwing up. But it applies even more to positive actions. For example, one of my sons was very sick last year, and missed a lot of school. But because he was a good student, was always respectful and attentive when he was in class, and worked hard to catch up after missing a week, his teachers tended to cut him slack - excusing him from some missed assignments, or cutting back on his workload to make it easier for him to catch up. If he was an obnoxious brat and made life miserable for the teachers, they might not have been nearly so lenient with him (since teachers are only human). His positive attitude and cheerful disposition definitely made it easier for his teachers to want to work with him.

Today, as you teach your child to touch things gently, it's not to avoid getting yelled at or smacked - it's because some things can break or get hurt if we aren't gentle. Once the child learns the concept, they understand it whether you are there or not - and THAT is the goal of discipline (which means "to teach", remember, not "to punish). As your children get older, the lessons change, but the objective is the same: teach them WHY they should behave in a certain way, so they can internalize those values and make responsible decisions on their own as they get older.

I guess this has been a really long way of saying "It still works!"

[NellieKatz]

Getting worse before it gets better

In the days since my last post, I've been actively involved in this issue of outright defiance. It has resulted in much introspection on my part (as usual) and one thing I have noticed is that he sees it as a battle. A winning vs. losing situation. Parent power vs. kid lack of power

Also, if he has asked for something and I deny him and he decided to smack me or take other physical action, I now see that it is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL that I get my own reaction under control, or else it will ALWAYS escalate. I realize that (a) when someone hits me, I get VERY angry and (b) my "big scary angry face" is a face that just further sets him off. The battle is ON at that point. So I have learned that he must not "get to me" or push any buttons. I must just gently and firmly tell him what I will and will not put up with.

And there have been consequences over the past few days. He loses things he values with me, like playtime or a special TV show he desperately wants me to watch with him. My stated policy is "I don't want to play with people who hurt me." By using this instead of artificial, contrived "consequences," I'm hoping to keep the consequences where the issue is....that is, an issue of relationships. He hurts Mama, Mama doesn't want to play. Anything that remotely seems retaliatory (like most punishments, I might add) just invites the same from him. He will even use the same "punishment" language on us if we say or do something that he doesn't like. Being punish-y really does invite a tit-for-tat attitude....and that would be horrid! Because every time I did something he didn't like, he'd feel obliged to somehow punish me for it. Yikes!

Anyway, it seems to just be getting worse. I think he's really testing me. And I really need to be tested. I have been way too unparentlike in the past; too easily drawn in at his level.

It is SOOOOOOO hard not to get my buttons pushed. He humiliates me in public. Today's example, we went into the copy shop to pick up a copy order--without bringing something for him to do. He hates the copy shop because it's boring. The other day he very intelligently brought a book in with him and he sat "reading" it while I conducted my business. But today, he went in without anything because I assumed it would be a quick trip, and though he politely sought my attention the correct way (quiet tapping of my arm while I'm talking), he grew impatient with how LONG it took me to stop my conversation with the clerk and pay attention to him. So he started his usual grabbing me on my breast. Not hard, but quick "tweaks" designed to get my goat.

Anyway I won't detail the whole afternoon or how we resolved it. I have . But the point is that it is very interesting and enlightening to me that from his point of view, it is a battle. Parents have so much power! And I'm guilty of using power & size (parental bigness") too often in the past.

Oh well....the learning process continues. :-)