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Feeling so sorry for men today -- Vent - Page 3

post #41 of 170
Don't you think that a situation where people questioned the appropriateness of male care would be an opportunity to educate those people? I would want to let them know that its their view of the situation that is inappropriate and sick...not the situation itself. Why would you change family behavior because of someone else's fear or disapproval?
post #42 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
So you are saying it's always an excuse no exception? Like I said I think we can't generalize things that easily. And yes people have and do view the changing of a diaper as a sex thrill for men. Have you ever seen those diaper fetish sites? :Puke These days there are more than a few people who see crap like that and then think men=diaper fetishist or some such thing.

As I said in my PP people have questioned whether or not it was appropriate for my DH to bathe with, bathe, or change our daughters. It's not really all that uncommon nowadays.

ETA- I just saw your ETA Tell me about it! But yeah they have. Not in a freak out "he is molesting your kids!" way but in a "do you really think that is appropriate?" way.
Seriously, I have never run into other people questioning DH helping with the kids. Just DH saying that if he does help he will get accused of molesting them. Nope..sorry, try again.

Seriously, I am sick of everyone in society treating everyone else like they are up to no good. The only way to stop it is to stand up and not allow them to do so. Just becuase other people question the appropriateness of a dad bathing his young girls doesn't mean it is not appropriate. It doesn't mean he will get arrested or for changing his child's diaper either. It is just people with nothing better to do going on at the mouth. The only way to stop it is to stand up and NOT LET THEM dictate how you care for your children. Just ignore them, they aren't anything to you.

Now my DH's mom used to barge in the bathroom to "wash his hair" until he was 14. This I believe was abuse and inappropriate. DH didn't want her in there. But you know.. no one questioned this. Why do we question a Dad caring for a very young daughter? This society is insane.
post #43 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by chamomile girl View Post
don't you think that a situation where people questioned the appropriateness of male care would be an opportunity to educate those people? I would want to let them know that its their view of the situation that is inappropriate and sick...not the situation itself. Why would you change family behavior because of someone else's fear or disapproval?
exactly!
post #44 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
I guess I have missed them. And you know what? That is their problem not mine or my husbands. It is my husbands job to help care for his children's needs. If that includes bathing a child covered in mud or changing a poopy diaper so be it. I am not going to live my life being scared of other peoples rediculous and perverted opinions. Furthermore I am not going to make more work for myself by trying to do everything at once because someone else might unrealistically feel it is inappropriate for Dad to do his part.

If we don't let Dad's use this as an excuse not to care for their children, then people would see how normal it is and shut their mouths. But because it is allowed to be used as an excuse, it justifies the tongue waggers to talk. I mean he wouldn't be "afraid" if he wasn't doing anything wrong. Ya know?
I do agree with this. My husband and I are actually talking about this right now and yeah he feels skiddish and worries what others will think if say our 5 year old goes up to them and says "my daddy gave me a bath today" but he still does it because, well, they're his kids. Still, I can fully understand that fear and deciding not to even go there. It's one thing to say we should all stand up but in actual practice it can mean some really bad things like our husbands being accused of things that are going to follow them for the rest of their lives.

Beyond that another fear is that our kids will grow up and one day be told "it was wrong of your father to bathe you/change you/etc" and our own children might feel they need to question their relationship w/their father as the idea was put into their head. I have seen this happen once with a friend when we were kids and she was just so confused by the whole thing. Looking back I can't imagine what she was feeling (I have no father in my life. Never have).

OT- But does this thread scream "Happy Father's Day!" or what
post #45 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl View Post
Don't you think that a situation where people questioned the appropriateness of male care would be an opportunity to educate those people? I would want to let them know that its their view of the situation that is inappropriate and sick...not the situation itself. Why would you change family behavior because of someone else's fear or disapproval?
I kind of answered this in the above without realizing it was asked but yes I do agree. Still I see where there is a real fear there and I can understand people just not wanting to risk it. I guess this is just another "As for me and my house..." thing. We don't let it change how we treat our girlies.
post #46 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl View Post
Don't you think that a situation where people questioned the appropriateness of male care would be an opportunity to educate those people? I would want to let them know that its their view of the situation that is inappropriate and sick...not the situation itself. Why would you change family behavior because of someone else's fear or disapproval?
I agree. My husband personally has not changed his behavior with our girls because of the attitudes of others but, having read some unbelievable threads here, it is apparent to me that there are people who do not want to be educated beyond what they believe.
post #47 of 170
Somehow I missed this post...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
Seriously, I am sick of everyone in society treating everyone else like they are up to no good. The only way to stop it is to stand up and not allow them to do so. Just becuase other people question the appropriateness of a dad bathing his young girls doesn't mean it is not appropriate. It doesn't mean he will get arrested or for changing his child's diaper either. It is just people with nothing better to do going on at the mouth. The only way to stop it is to stand up and NOT LET THEM dictate how you care for your children. Just ignore them, they aren't anything to you.

Quote:
Now my DH's mom used to barge in the bathroom to "wash his hair" until he was 14. This I believe was abuse and inappropriate. DH didn't want her in there. But you know.. no one questioned this.
Two thoughts on this- it's another thing I can't stand about our society (and it was illustrated in the OP) the coddling of our older kids and teens. It does such a disservice to them, IMO, and also that when a mom does it it's just fine but when a dad does it he's overbearing and abusive- maybe even sexually so.

Quote:
Why do we question a Dad caring for a very young daughter? This society is insane.
Pretty much!


We have all girls so without DH's help I'd be pretty SOL.
post #48 of 170
Sorry for your DH! It is sad that this is how people have to think nowadays
post #49 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
We have all girls so without DH's help I'd be pretty SOL.
We had three girls before we had a boy so I know how you feel. Now my oldest is not DH's and she was four when we got married, so he never participated in any intimate care with her. Our first daughter together he tried to pull the "I'll get accused of molesting her" card and I let him get away with it for awhile. But you know what? Their relationship suffered and when she was two I had to step in and help him build one. So I didn't let him use that excuse with the next one and they have had a much closer relationship from the start, as he has with my son. Not to say dh and my 10 year old don't have a good relationship now.. but it was harder to build at 2 than it would have been from the start.
post #50 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
We had three girls before we had a boy so I know how you feel. Now my oldest is not DH's and she was four when we got married, so he never participated in any intimate care with her. Our first daughter together he tried to pull the "I'll get accused of molesting her" card and I let him get away with it for awhile. But you know what? Their relationship suffered and when she was two I had to step in and help him build one. So I didn't let him use that excuse with the next one and they have had a much closer relationship from the start, as he has with my son. Not to say dh and my 10 year old don't have a good relationship now.. but it was harder to build at 2 than it would have been from the start.
That's interesting about their relationship. I don't doubt it!

Our deal has been from day 1 of DD1's life that when he is home he changes every diaper and he also gives the baths (this has become more of a team effort with 3 girls but he still bathes them and I dress them as he passes them to me). We figured it'd be his time with them and it has been ever since. It's such a help to me especially when I am preggers and/or breastfeeding.
post #51 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
I am sorry, but in my opinion it is an excuse.
I have read much of this thread and I think this is very over generalized. My DH works 60 hrs a week. He also does car and yard maintenance. He will come home and clean with the house when there is a lot to be done, cook dinner/brunches more than once a week, take the kids to appt with him, he will grocery shop, and put younger kids to bed if possible. He will also watch the kids all day when I have multiple appts. He does change diapers at MY insistance. But, he will NOT bathe or shower with a son, when I thought it would be convenient.

One time he changed our oldest who was 2yo and diarhea, and walked out the mall bathroom to come get the wipes, and I FLIPPED. He doesn't change diapers in the restroom anymore, but that is my fault. He won't bathe little girls (and we have many). There are other things he won't do for self protection. I know my Dh is safe with my kids, and safe with any kids, but this is society that we live in, and he doesn't want anyone to think that he is doing anything questionable.

I consider myself the luckiest wife in the world to have a DH that is a workaholic, but yet it works in my favor now, unlike before. He works that long out of necessity, but is much more involved with the children now that we have so many. But, I do see things that he won't do because he doesn't want anyone to be suspicious of him. Kymberli
post #52 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by fwlady View Post
I have read much of this thread and I think this is very over generalized. My DH works 60 hrs a week. He also does car and yard maintenance. He will come home and clean with the house when there is a lot to be done, cook dinner/brunches more than once a week, take the kids to appt with him, he will grocery shop, and put younger kids to bed if possible. He will also watch the kids all day when I have multiple appts. He does change diapers at MY insistance. But, he will NOT bathe or shower with a son, when I thought it would be convenient.

One time he changed our oldest who was 2yo and diarhea, and walked out the mall bathroom to come get the wipes, and I FLIPPED. He doesn't change diapers in the restroom anymore, but that is my fault. He won't bathe little girls (and we have many). There are other things he won't do for self protection. I know my Dh is safe with my kids, and safe with any kids, but this is society that we live in, and he doesn't want anyone to think that he is doing anything questionable.

I consider myself the luckiest wife in the world to have a DH that is a workaholic, but yet it works in my favor now, unlike before. He works that long out of necessity, but is much more involved with the children now that we have so many. But, I do see things that he won't do because he doesn't want anyone to be suspicious of him. Kymberli
I still believe it is an excuse. There is no reason for this "self protection." It is only the society we live in because we allow it to be.
post #53 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chamomile Girl View Post
Don't you think that a situation where people questioned the appropriateness of male care would be an opportunity to educate those people? I would want to let them know that its their view of the situation that is inappropriate and sick...not the situation itself. Why would you change family behavior because of someone else's fear or disapproval?
Maybe, maybe not. Having had many "opportunities to educate" via my DH and also male daycare co-workers....education is not unilateral. The other person MUST be willing to hear what you have to say.

And sadly, many, many, MANY people (even here) will not or cannot hear that a male might be a safe caregiver for their children. Including daddies and brothers.

It's never changed how we did things, but I don't always think it's an education opportunity either. It depends on whether or not people are in a place where they can even remotely hear you. Some people are not. It's sad, but there's nothing you can do really to change their minds (or vice versa). I take my cue from my former co-workers and DH, they shrug it off and move on, if it's obvious that the person is incapable of even considering my viewpoint on things then so do I.

ETA: As for the excuse...yes, I see people using that as an excuse. I also see it as an "excuse" sometimes for the mom to retain absolute control. (though granted, it tends to start with far less emotional/gutpunching things than sexual abuse) The mom might then complain about her partner not helping but there are some people that seem (perhaps unwittingly) bound and determined to retain all the control. Their way is the right way and must be followed every time, from how to play with the kid, what they can wear, ect, it kind of sucks all the joy and autonomy from the other parent (though the other parent could and should assert themselves more, to go belly up in the face of that is a choice too). One of the things that really annoyed me about a lot of the moms groups I went to when my kids were small is the contant stream of moaning and complaining about partners who "didn't do anything", right alongside constant critiques and mocking of how they did things when they DID contribute. I do think a lot of our societal attitudes about partnerships and family dynamics and parenting are sick--but it's more complex that who uses what excuse IMO. I find that excuses most of the time serve BOTH people in the partnership in some way, with a few exceptions of course.
post #54 of 170
My dh tried to use it as an excuse. And I called him on it, and he sheepishly admitted it was an excuse and gave up, and now changed diapers. I doubt there's a CPS red flag "changes infant daughter's diapers" anyway. Some men might actually be afraid of that but I don't think anyone except the most paranoid would question a dad changing his own daughter's diapers. And yes, I know "the most paranoid" exist in the world. We can't live our lives around their misconceptions of reality.
post #55 of 170
ITA with OP and feel sorry for DH.. ugh..

BUt I wanna bring up another angle to this that is just near and dear to my heart... What kind of message was that mother sending her son about men... he is afterall going to grow up and become one.

The question "what is taking so long?" would have covered all concerns arising in her... but instead she spoon fed her boy the worlds paranoia with men.. whether she realizes it or not... our boys are listening IYKWIM

Kinda like How I can't stand to hear generalized comments about men and directions, listening, caring, commitment that are dropped in deraogatory ways...

Moms of boys need to pay better attention than that....

Another thing is trying this scenerio on the other foot... dad shouts into a ladies room... you ok... is anybody touching you in there.... how totally insane would that seem?
post #56 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerchild View Post
As for the excuse...yes, I see people using that as an excuse. I also see it as an "excuse" sometimes for the mom to retain absolute control. (though granted, it tends to start with far less emotional/gutpunching things than sexual abuse) The mom might then complain about her partner not helping but there are some people that seem (perhaps unwittingly) bound and determined to retain all the control. Their way is the right way and must be followed every time, from how to play with the kid, what they can wear, ect, it kind of sucks all the joy and autonomy from the other parent (though the other parent could and should assert themselves more, to go belly up in the face of that is a choice too). One of the things that really annoyed me about a lot of the moms groups I went to when my kids were small is the contant stream of moaning and complaining about partners who "didn't do anything", right alongside constant critiques and mocking of how they did things when they DID contribute.
Thank you for saying this. I've noticed the same thing multiple times, and it really upsets me. As you say, going belly up in the face of it is a choice, but I do understand it in some cases. Constant criticism and mocking wears a person down. I've certainly seen at least two cases where it reached a level that was flat-out emotionally abusive...yet those same women would happily spend an evening with their girlfriends complaining about their "useless" spouse who wouldn't/couldn't do anything to help. There are certainly men who just don't think they should have to do "women's work"...but the kind of dynamic you're talking about happens a lot, too.
post #57 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
I still believe it is an excuse. There is no reason for this "self protection." It is only the society we live in because we allow it to be.
There is a reason for the self-protection... Whether you agree with the mindset or not, the wrong person could hear that dad bathes his child or changes diapers (son or daughter) and call the police. The end result of which could easily take him away from his children for an extended period of time.

Men are stuck between a rock and hard place here, they help out with the kids and someone will assume the worst, they don't help out and they are lazy, unfit fathers. The only difference is that one accusation can ruin a fathers life while the other can just ruin how people outside the imidiate family see him.

P.S. to a different poster can't remember who, the diaper fetish is not the same as pedophilia. It's one of many fetishes that center on adults enjoying being or seeing another adult humiliated. I can see how someone would easily make the connection though.
post #58 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
There is a reason for the self-protection... Whether you agree with the mindset or not, the wrong person could hear that dad bathes his child or changes diapers (son or daughter) and call the police. The end result of which could easily take him away from his children for an extended period of time.
That is an absolute load. There is no police officer in his right mind, nor CPS agent is going to take kids, dad away from the home cause dad changes his daughter's diaper. That is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard. It's just not.. going.. to happen. And pretending like it might is totally doing a disservice to everyone in society as well as your children.
post #59 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by aniT View Post
That is an absolute load. There is no police officer in his right mind, nor CPS agent is going to take kids, dad away from the home cause dad changes his daughter's diaper. That is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard. It's just not.. going.. to happen. And pretending like it might is totally doing a disservice to everyone in society as well as your children.
You really think that a police officer is going to ignore someone calling in about suspected sexual abuse of a child too young to talk just because mom says "Well it's all ok so don't bother"? The person isn't going to call in and say "Well he changed the daiper" they are going to say "that man is sexually abusing his children" and they will take it seriously until it is either proven false, or they find a reason to arrest the dad. Either way the stigma is going to be stuck on that man for the rest of his life and cause grief for him and his family.
post #60 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
You really think that a police officer is going to ignore someone calling in about suspected sexual abuse of a child too young to talk just because mom says "Well it's all ok so don't bother"? The person isn't going to call in and say "Well he changed the daiper" they are going to say "that man is sexually abusing his children" and they will take it seriously until it is either proven false, or they find a reason to arrest the dad. Either way the stigma is going to be stuck on that man for the rest of his life and cause grief for him and his family.
I think we, as a society, spend to much time worrying about what ifs that have no basis in reality.
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