if its a boy dp want to circ, he says it prevents cancer whats the truth?

[bluebell]

we don't know the sex of our baby and won't until its born in august, but i have a feeling its a boy. so when i said that i thought it was a boy dp said if it is he wants it to be circumsied. we did have a very brief discussion about it when i was pregnant with dd and i said no way and he wasn't happy about that and then she was a girl anyway so wasn't an issue. but this time its more relevant as i'm adamant that we won't circumsise and i'm sure we have a boy. dp is adamant that we will and was furious that i wouldn't even discuss it. he has always been really supportive of all the parenting things that i've chosen ap, non vax, home education etc. but this seems really important to him. he says its not just about the wanting his son to be the same as him its also about the health issues. he said his father told him that there hasn't been one case of cancer (male genital) with cicumsised penis's is this true? he also says that its more hygenic etc etc... i don't know what the truth is regarding all this because its not something i'd ever contemplated. so can someone point me in the direction of where i can find out about all this. and also the facts about what circumsion actually is and how it affects the baby as he says it can be done without any pain apparantly he got it done by a rabi and it was just an elastic band around the penis and then the skin fell off. btw he is jewish by birth but has never practised or been brought up in the faith this was the only thing that his parents did that was anything to do with being jewish so the religion arguement isn't relevant. many thanks,

[becca_howell]

Has your DP seen a circ video? For my DH, that was enough to make him pro-intact!

Here's a website that talks about penile cancer and circumcision. It has quotes from the American Cancer Society. Good luck!

[nd_deadhead]

Bluebell, congratulations on our pregnancy! I wish you weren't troubled by a major disagreement with your DP.

The TRUTH is that our sons are more likely to get breast cancer than penile cancer. The major risk factors for penile cancer (according to the American Cancer Society) are smoking, and unprotected sex with multiple partners. Penile cancer is a disease almost exclusive to old men, not little boys. The ACS specifically states that it does NOT recommend infant circumcision for the prevention of penile cancer.

As for other "health benefits" your husband may try to use: there is NO medical organization in the world that recommends infant circumcision on the basis of health benefits. While there may be some "potential" benefits, they do not outweigh the risks of the operation itself. The only medical indications for circumcision are frostbite, gangrene, and the very rare case where a foreskin problem does not respond to less invasive treatment. Since none of these apply to a newborn, it is no more than cosmetic surgery.

It is actually far easier to clean a penis with a foreskin than to care for a circumcision wound.

[Juvysen]

Is he going to lop off a DD's breasts the moment they show up to prevent breast cancer? For that matter, might as well take the appendix and tonsils out at birth to prevent disease....

*sigh*

[Yulia_R]

First of all, penile cancer is VERY rare to beging with. Second of all, circ does NOT prevent it, it just relocates it to the circ scar

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=3944860

The tumors involved the prepuce (n = 1), prepuce and distal shaft (n = 1), circumcision scar line (n = 2), circumcision scar line and distal shaft

By the way, does your dh knows the history of circ in North America (this was an eye-opener for my dh).

Circumcision started in North America in the Puritan 1870s as a cure for masturbation. Masturbation was considered to be evil and sinful and was blamed for all sort of illnesses including blindness, paralysis and mental retardation) http://www.noharmm.org/docswords.htm .

As late as the 1970's medical books were claiming that desensitizing the boy was good medicine as well as good morality. The idea of that, touted openly by medical scholarship with notable pride, was carefully tucked away when the sexual revolution permitted sexual pleasure.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by bluebell

he says its not just about the wanting his son to be the same as him its also about the health issues. he said his father told him that there hasn't been one case of cancer (male genital) with cicumsised penis's is this true?

That is all completely false. Here is what the American Cancer Society says about that.

In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other risk factors, such as smoking, personal hygiene, and the number of sexual partners.

Originally Posted by bluebell

he also says that its more hygenic etc etc... i don't know what the truth is regarding all this because its not something i'd ever contemplated. so can someone point me in the direction of where i can find out about all this. and also the facts about what circumsion actually is and how it affects the baby as he says it can be done without any pain apparantly he got it done by a rabi and it was just an elastic band around the penis and then the skin fell off. btw he is jewish by birth but has never practised or been brought up in the faith this was the only thing that his parents did that was anything to do with being jewish so the religion arguement isn't relevant. many thanks,

There are more resources that others can provide I add more of necesary when I am in a better position to do so.

[perspective]

Well to be honest, I think you have two problems here.
Your first is this:

Originally Posted by bluebell

i'm adamant that we won't circumsise and i'm sure we have a boy. dp is adamant that we will and was furious that i wouldn't even discuss it. he has always been really supportive of all the parenting things that i've chosen ap, non vax, home education etc.

This is obviously very important to you, and obviously we all here agree that its the better choice for your son. But you have to remember in his mind he probably feels the same way. If you want to resolve this, you have to give his opinions a chance. If you are right (which you are) his argument cant win. But not even letting him speak his mind and discuss this with you as a couple is only going to hinder the resolution of this situation.

This seems really important to him. he says its not just about the wanting his son to be the same as him its also about the health issues. he said his father told him that there hasn't been one case of cancer (male genital) with cicumsised penis's is this true?

Cancer- Significantly more men get breast cancer each year then those who get penile cancer.

Numbers- The American Cancer Society estimates that over 2,030 men will get breast cancer in a year. While the ACS estimates only 1,290 men will get penile cancer. Each year 450 men die of breast cancer, while its 300 for penile cancer. Obviously your future son, has incredibly small chance of getting either of these, but keeping in mind breast cancer should be a bigger worry puts it into perspective.

Breast cancer in men-
http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu...en/brstcan.cfm

Penile Cancer-
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/cri/co..._cancer_35.asp

he also says that its more hygenic etc etc... i don't know what the truth is regarding all this because its not something i'd ever contemplated. so can someone point me in the direction of where i can find out about all this. and also the facts about what circumsion actually is and how it affects the baby as he says it can be done without any pain apparantly he got it done by a rabi and it was just an elastic band around the penis and then the skin fell off. btw he is jewish by birth but has never practised or been brought up in the faith this was the only thing that his parents did that was anything to do with being jewish so the religion arguement isn't relevant. many thanks,

Saying circumcision is more hygienic, is like saying cutting off an ear is more hygienic. Its as simple as cleaning any body part in the shower. If you dont wash a body part you will have hygiene problems, if you do wash it, you wont. Its very simple.


As a circed guy I can tell you I would have liked to have had a choice. Its your sons body, and it should not matter how painless you can make the procedure, because thats besides the point.

[calngavinsmom]

Hi there. You already got some great responses about penile cancer so I thought I'd address the other questions in your post. Most infant circumcision are done one of two ways, Gomco clamp or Plastibell.

This is the Gomco clamp method: http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/gomco5.html

Plastibell method: http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/ (this is the "rubber band" method your dh was referring to. It is a very common myth that it is painless or bloodless, but clearly it is not.)

There is a video attached to the link of the plastibell method, but not the gomco method, so here is a video of the Gomco: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...umcision&hl=en

Not one single health organization in the world recommends infant circumcision, in large part because there are no proven health benefits that outweigh the risks and harms of the procedure. http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

And as far as pain goes, it does affect the baby. There have been studies that document that fact.
http://www.infocirc.org/babypain.htm
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php


And don't let cleanliness even enter your mind, the foreskin is there to protect the penis and keep it clean. The circumcised penis is much more prone to problems in the early years of life. http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/vanhowe/

Also check out my siggy for more information.

Good luck to you, it is so worth it to protect your son

Take care!
Tara

[Juvysen]

it also affects breastfeeding, fyi. the breastfeeding thing is something that I had never heard until I started reading on here a lot, and it's apparently not uncommon.

[Ron_Low]

In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other risk factors, such as smoking, personal hygiene, and the number of sexual partners.

It's more than that. The original study that made the link between cancer and intactness failed to control for age. It was done at a time when circumcision was on the rise, so the older men in the study were very likely to be intact while the younger men were mostly cut. The study basically compared old men with cancer to young who hadn't gotten cancer yet. The write-up showin this distinction was at Circumstitions.com.

[Kagrish]

Originally Posted by becca_howell

Has your DP seen a circ video? For my DH, that was enough to make him pro-intact!

Here's a website that talks about penile cancer and circumcision. It has quotes from the American Cancer Society. Good luck!

Yep, that!

[PinkinPA]

here is one I use. I argue that if "you" want to circumcise to prevent cancer, then maybe we should start lopping off boobies for girls when they hit puberty. Maybe that'll prevent breast cancer.

This certainly isn't a clickable link, but it gets people thinking.

[GoldmanBaby09]

Originally Posted by bluebell

btw he is Jewish by birth but has never practiced or been brought up in the faith this was the only thing that his parents did that was anything to do with being Jewish so the religion argument isn't relevant.

Everyone has provided multiple links addressing your other concerns about the cancer and the hygiene, so I won't address that. But I did what to throw in my two cents about this, and I hope the MDC gods don't remove this, as we aren't supposed to discuss religion on this forum. But you can be Jewish by religion or you can be Jewish by ethnicity, as is the case with your DH and mine. Before we even got married, I made it very clear to DH how I felt about circing. I wanted to be sure to lay the ground work in the event that we ever had a son (as we are right now). When we found out we were having a boy, I reminded DH again about how I felt. He was a little combative, at first. He is circed, as is his father, as were all the men in his family. But tradition can accustom one to any atrocity, and once we sat down and we looked at all the research together, he could see that there was more to this debate than just accepting that it is something to be done. I hope your husband is a reasonable man, and when you provide him with this information, he can see that leaving your son intact is the best choice for your baby. Because once it's done, it's done, and you can't ever take that back. GL Mama!

[bluebell]

thanks so much for all the replies, support and links to information. i couldn't open the the site that had the movie of the operation but i could see the photos and i showed them to dp and he cried! he couldn't believe it involved blood and strapping the baby down, he just thought it involved an elastic band put on and no pain. i felt so sad for him, although he said he didn't mind that it had happened to him. but i think he is now realising that its not something he'd like to put his own son through. in england circumsion isn't as common as seems to be in america, so i never thought this would be an issue as my father and brother weren't done and i hardly new any boyfriends to have been done. so i guess this is all a new thing for me to find out. but i think dp is going to be ok about it. many thanks everyone.