I'm on the verge of losing it with this kid.

[minkajane]

I don't know how to handle my 4.5yo. Today's meltdown was over a nap. He had to get up much earlier than usual and we had a very busy and stressful day, so I know he's exhausted. It's obvious in the way he's acting - very cranky, laying around, not wanting to do anything. So DH told him it was time for a nap. DS completely lost it. He started shrieking like he was in horrible pain that he didn't want to take a nap. I got him calmed down and we explained to him that we knew he was tired, but he just kept screaming that he wasn't tired.

I tried explaining to him why we need naps and that he wouldn't miss anything because DH and I were going to nap too. I tried offering him something fun to do after the nap. He just kept freaking out. I've been doing this calming breath thing with him when he gets worked up and he refused to do it today because he knows it calms him down. He just kept getting more and more worked up. Then he started the "hurt kid" tactic he uses a lot - every time we touch him, he starts bawling that we hurt him and saying "ow, ow!" even if we only touched him with one finger.

We tried a new technique that I read about, where if he goes the whole day without going in time-out, he gets a sticker. Then after five stickers, he gets a prize. It's been four days. He has zero stickers. The time-outs have all been for not doing what he's told, whether it's to put away a toy or get dressed or whatever. He gets several warnings, then if he still won't do it, he goes to time-out.

I don't know how to handle this. I know pushing boundaries is normal for this age, but I'm seriously on the edge from being completely ignored all. the. time. Then when he gets in trouble for it, we get a total freakout meltdown. How do I deal with this???

[mom2grrls]

My son can have major freakouts when he's tired. Try laying him down for a nap before the obvious signs come. As for the timeouts and stickers, I would drop those. He may be feeling very frustrated b/c that goal is very hard to obtain for a 4.5 y/o. I would pick your biggest concerns and work on those. If you feel ignored make sure you're on his level before you speak, perhaps even touch his arm to make sure he's tuned in. Heck i've even read you can try whispering in their ear to get their attention Speak your request once, if he doesn't do it start moving him toward or away from what you're talking about. try to avoid using no's and don't's-say things like we're just walking now.

[JessicaS]

It sounds like he was just overtired.

Some kids have this "sleep window" between when they will nap peacefully and ULTIMATE MELTDOWN.

My dd was the same way.

Maybe try thinking about time and how long he can be awake before he takes a peaceful nap and if he has a meltdown how long was he awake.

[peaceful_mama]

I tried a long term reward thing for no time-outs too.....it didn't work. IMO they're too young to 'get it' remember and think about it. (mine's also 4.5)

I personally am not getting rid of timeout. I am however trying something new. I explained to DS last night things like hurting ppl or going in the road=auto time-out/separation of siblings. too unsafe, can't continue. (but a short time-out the first time you go in the road versus being stuck inside all day in our small apt watching friends play out or loss of bike all day long or more may be too harsh a consequence. In this case, I think one short time-out inside the first time should be both a consequence and a chance to remind before using a longer consequence. I think the immediate "crackdown" of things like being stuck inside all day, loss of bike for the day, etc. seems to just cause him to feel like well, I've already screwed up now what's the point of trying to be good? does that make sense?)

yet the alternative would be that they run/ride bike in the road, which is not at all safe here. They have lots of area where it IS safe and allowed. The "road" is a parking lot, there is absolutely no way I'm taking a chance on their knowing if someone's going to back out or come speeding in not watching for anyone.

other things like insisting he's "watching this" on TV but obvious not, but nobody else can use TV, being loud inside and in the morning when dad is trying to sleep especially, refusal to cleanup etc. get warned 1-2 and on 3, the consequence happens. TV goes off or to other person's choice--I don't like it just being on as background Dad works second shift and sleeps in. He's easily woken by their noise and has asked that I bring them to him for time out when they're fighting/extremely loud. (whichever one is causing the noise.)

I feel this 'system' will give him (and 2 year old, who will understand with a bit of time) a clear message about what is OK and what is not. Also it will give *me* a way to feel like I am taking action without yelling and give me a way "in" when it starts to bother me, before I've gotten to the point where I yell and "crack down".

I also told DS that before we do something "special" (like an outing, or yesterday we put on the sprinkler) We will talk about the rules BEFORE we start---what is an absolute safety "no" and will result in immediate going-home. (things like going off to another part of the park where I can't find you would be an example.) In that case, I consider our pre-conversation to be the "warning." Things like running ahead or goofing around on a grocery cart would be warnings followed by leaving. Also if I have to leave a store, the person who caused the leaving does not come the next time.

(We also REALLY need to work on rules for outings, so my plan is to work in as many short outings as I can to give plenty of opportunity for learning. I skipped a fun park festival this weekend because DH did not want to go and I didn't feel I could safely handle all 3 kids alone there. Maybe it is the age, but I also think we could work on it and get to a point where I can feel safe taking them to most kid-friendly settings.)

for the sprinkler, there wouldn't be an absolute safety "no" but it's going to get shut off if it's continually moved by everyone (can't have it where peopel can't walk by on sidewalk without getting wet, don't want it where it creates puddles/mess) Or if there is only one offender (likely) that person may get time-out if they can't stop. (rather than everyone losing out)

longer than I intended, but maybe it can help. The basic point is I've moved from a long-term goal type discipline to trying something with immediate reminders and immediate consequences. Then, once it's over, it's over. When we decide to try it again, we truly start over.

we'll see how this works.

I agree with the nap thing, dd definently has her point where it will be peaceful and where it wont

[mysticmomma]

Originally Posted by abimommy

It sounds like he was just overtired.

Some kids have this "sleep window" between when they will nap peacefully and ULTIMATE MELTDOWN.

My dd was the same way.

Maybe try thinking about time and how long he can be awake before he takes a peaceful nap and if he has a meltdown how long was he awake.

Yes! And forcing naps never worked over here. Instead we would put on a movie and snuggle on the sofa. It's still down time and usually helped.

[fritz]

With my DS, when he was obviously tired and would have benefitted from a nap, but didn't want to take a nap, I noticed he would deliberately escalate a situation until we both lost it. I realized he was trying to get me to yell so that he could go into a full blown meltdown b/c he desperately needed the emotional release. After he'd purged the buildup of emotions, he'd be ready for me to pick him up; I'd walk him for a few minutes, then he'd pass out. This behavior peaked around 3.5 years when he was actually more ready to drop his nap than I was. Once I recognized what a non-productive power struggle it had turned into, I changed the dynamic. I stopped insisting he take a nap (and just laid down quietly myself); he stopped provoking me; I stopped yelling; he stopped melting down (at least, about naps).

My point is that sometimes little ones have so much inside them that it just has to come out, and sometimes anything can trigger a meltdown. As frustrating as it can be for us parents to witness, our children need to get rid of the excess emotion. So let them get it out (assuming nobody's getting hurt). Give him space--be nearby and available for when he wants you, but don't try to cheat him out of his purge. Don't talk to him or try to touch him if it's not what he's ready for.

I would also agree that one sticker for an entire day's worth of good behavior is probably beyond most 4 year olds. That's just too long of a stretch of time. So either change it to a sticker for every meal that he puts his dishes in the sink, and/or for every time he cleans up his toys (or whatever tasks are particularly important to you), or drop the reward chart, or switch to using some other, non-rewards based system.

Have you tried making his daily life more fun? As in, for getting dressed, turn it into a game or a race against the clock/timer? How about singing a silly song when helping him pick up his toys? Or racing (I bet I can put away all these Legos before you can put away all those blocks)? Using humor to diffuse a situation or change the dynamic can work wonders. Try reading Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen. Lots of real life examples of how to use play to reconnect to our children.

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by minkajane

I tried explaining to him why we need naps and that he wouldn't miss anything because DH and I were going to nap too. I tried offering him something fun to do after the nap. He just kept freaking out. I've been doing this calming breath thing with him when he gets worked up and he refused to do it today because he knows it calms him down. He just kept getting more and more worked up. Then he started the "hurt kid" tactic he uses a lot - every time we touch him, he starts bawling that we hurt him and saying "ow, ow!" even if we only touched him with one finger.

Having 2 children that both stopped napping shortly after turning 2 (26 and 28 months, respectively), I am of the firm opinion that even if a child is tired and *you* know they need sleep, you simply cannot force them to sleep if they are determined to not sleep, and trying to make them can backfire in a BIG way, as you found out. Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything you can do about it, and especially when they're tired they're not going to be able to listen to reason...so as a PP suggested, after the first refusal I would have just switched gears and had everyone snuggle for a movie or other very low key time together so you all could rest. From the voice of experience, every time I tried to "make" my kids nap, it blew up in my face. But snuggling on the couch with a movie or books was a little bit restful and avoided the explosion. When we have a long day with an early morning, we just have an earlier dinner and bedtime.

Originally Posted by minkajane

We tried a new technique that I read about, where if he goes the whole day without going in time-out, he gets a sticker. Then after five stickers, he gets a prize. It's been four days. He has zero stickers. The time-outs have all been for not doing what he's told, whether it's to put away a toy or get dressed or whatever. He gets several warnings, then if he still won't do it, he goes to time-out.

I don't know how to handle this. I know pushing boundaries is normal for this age, but I'm seriously on the edge from being completely ignored all. the. time. Then when he gets in trouble for it, we get a total freakout meltdown. How do I deal with this???

Honestly, from reading your post, being put in time out for not putting away a toy or getting dressed, he's probably feeling micromanaged and like he has little say in what's going on, and this is likely making him push back harder and have the freakouts, and then being frustrated with himself because he's not earning any stickers, which is making him push back even harder and freak out even more. I'd definitely pick your battles. Timing-out mulitple times a day is going to lead to escalating power struggles, especially with kids who have certain personalities (and it would seem that your child has a similar personality to my older child) - I've seen it happen with a couple of my friends.

I'd also agree with the PP that suggested really being sure you have his attention when you're asking him to do something (make eye contact, try to be on his level, and confirm that he heard you and understood), and then not giving several warnings - ask him to do it, be sure he heard you, and if he doesn't do it, do it with him or help him do it (i.e., help him pick up his toys and make a game of it, or walk him to his room where his clothes are - 4.5 is still pretty young, and they can still get distracted relatively easily so keeping them on task is best acheived in our house by still guiding them through the steps instead of just a big task like, "get dressed" or "clean up your toys"). Orr, sometimes the "waiting for a bus" technique can work with kids this age. You ask, make sure they heard you, and then you wait for them....not angrily, but a little impatiently, like you're waiting for a bus that's a couple minutes late. Nothing else happens until whatever needs to be done is done (including for me; I stop doing whatever I was doing, and just stand/sit there next to them, not saying anything). I always forget about this technique, but every time I use it - every time I just stand there, looking at them, waiting with just that little hint of urgency, they do whatever it is.

It drives me crazy when I'm ignored...but then I think about the times during the day when they ask me something and I say, "just a sec" or "as soon as I finish this", or "I'll be right there...". How can I expect them to hop to it every time I ask them to do something, when I don't do the same for them? Working together with them to get things done, figuring out ways to make tasks easier for them by making it a game, or racing, or getting their input on how they want to do things, all make it easier for our household. And for times when there is no negotiation, we just get it done. They are welcome to be unhappy about it, and express that displeasure (within reason), and are not punished for expressing their displeasure, but whatever it is still gets done.


It's tough, I know - my son is emotionally sensitive and has perfectionistic tendencies (sticker charts and the like never work for him, he's too sensitive to not getting the stickers or whatever and then beats himself up for not performing well enough, and then just turns into a sobbing heap of defeat), and we've had to figure out a lot of different ways to handle things; he was very easygoing until about 3-1/2 years old, and has gotten increasingly sensitive over the past year; we're working through things with some outside help (because DS's problems have started creeping into other areas of his life and hindering him doing things), but for us the answer has not been cracking down, but involving him more in the discussion and solution, and picking our battles.

[LynnS6]

I agree that once my kids have gotten overtired, all hell will break loose and I just steel myself for the inevitable meltdown.

Several additional suggestions:

I LOVE the book "Kids, Parents & Power Struggles" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. It's great for this age.

How much warning to do you give him? My kids need LOTS of transition time. I'm always surprised when other parents say "OK, nap time" and their children respond without a meltdown. We do 5-3-1 minute 'warnings' for a LOT of things. I also liberally use the timer "when the timer beeps, it will be time to..."

If you're going to do the rewards, I'd do two things:
1. Make it possible for him to earn a daily reward. 4-5 days out is FAR too long for a child that age. It's just not tangible.

2. Make the rewards for doing something positive, rather than avoiding something negative. Several parents I know have success with 'marble jars' where their kids get a marble in the jar for every time they do X, Y or Z. Then when the marble jar is full, they get the reward. (I suspect a google search will get you better details than I've given). So, look at what he's going into time-out for, and pick the top 2-3 behaviors that lead to that to work on in a positive way.

Another thought: We use timeouts in our house, but only for really anti-social behavior (hitting, screaming like a banshee). I'm a firm believer in logical consequences. So, if you behave violently (I include screaming like a bansee in 'violent' behavior because it hurts my ears and makes it impossible for anyone to be around you), then you go in timeout. If you do something else, it's not a time out.

oops, kids need me, gotta run.

[RiverTam]

Originally Posted by minkajane

We tried a new technique that I read about, where if he goes the whole day without going in time-out, he gets a sticker. Then after five stickers, he gets a prize. It's been four days. He has zero stickers. The time-outs have all been for not doing what he's told, whether it's to put away a toy or get dressed or whatever. He gets several warnings, then if he still won't do it, he goes to time-out.

Behavior training programs like this are very effective, but only if you find something that is immediately rewarding to the child. Your kid doesn't care about the stickers and doesn't get the "prize" concept. You have to find something that the kids likes and finds to be a good reward. The reward has to be rewarding to the child.

Here's what I do: 1) Figure out what he finds really, really rewarding (the X factor). 2) Anticipate when a meltdown is coming, like nap time. 3) Tell him that if he has nap time without complaint, he can have a limited amount of the X factor., 3) Keep your word 4) Don't punish. If he doesn't do it. Don't say anything. Just withhold the reward because he didn't earn it. 5) Don't give him the reward if he doesn't comply. The X factor has to be earned, every single time.

Training programs that have I have seen work:

1. Pokeman/Magic cards for chores. When a chore needed to done (carry in groceries, pick up toys, clean your room) the parent told the child that if she completed X, she could have a Pokeman card or a Magic card. These are collectible cards that are used for a game and come in packs of 12 or so. She really loved them, so they based their reward system on that. When she completed her chore, she got to pick out a card.

2. Potty training treasure box -- When my oldest was potty training, we used a treasure box system. If he made it to the potty and didn't wet his pants, he could pick out one toy from the treasure box. If he pooped in the potty, he could pick out two toys. We filled the treasure box up with little toys that come in a thing called "Toob" put out by Safari Ltd. They have animals or sharks or dinosaurs in them. He loved the animal Toobs, so we used them for potty training.

3. Video game time -- my oldest is just six months shy of being too old for the Children's Center at the YMCA. He doesn't like to go anymore. I still need to work out on Saturday morning, though. So our deal is that if he goes to the Y without kicking up a fit, he can have 30 minutes of a video game of his choice when we get home. Works like a charm. He loves Kung Fu Panda. We picked that reward because he already loved it.

[Porcelain Interior]

Even as an adult I bristle if someone tells me to go to bed, or "your tired just go to sleep".

So I imagine your son is feeling triggered by being told it's nap time. I think in the future maybe you should say "Wow I'm really worn out, I think I'm going to snuggle up with a book, would you like to snuggle and read?"

If he is truly tired he WILL fall asleep.

I think it's all about presentation, especially with a cranky child.

[amber913]

Did you borrow my son for the day?

DD's occupational therapist has a theory that the even-numbered ages are the most fun--except the second half of the year, which is the worst, and so far, DS is living up to that! I actually said last night "Five more months, and he'll be good again."

DS hates to be told that he's tired, and the worst battles happen at bedtime. We take toys and only give them back the next morning if he goes to bed easily. He also wants to see the new Transformers movie, so we're holding that over his head. These tactics seem to be the only things that work with him.

As far as nap goes, if DS is tired, I suggest he get in my bed and watch his shows. Sometimes he'll drop off that way.

In any case, not much advice, but I'm right there with you!