Questions about crying it out - Page 2

[ewe+lamb]

Originally Posted by robynholly

Tell me more about how it causes brain damage. I know he is not hungry because he doesn't want to eat Thanks for all your help!

When a baby cries the stress hormone cortisol is released, this is the same stress hormone found in you or I or anyone in situations in which we find difficult, in babies because all the energy the baby has is redirected to crying - calling for help - then the energy is used to protect the baby and not to stimulate brain development and growth, a child who is cuddled in beside mum and dad is a reassured and happy child, who is more confident and trustworthy of his/her parents abilities to respond to them and therefore the energy which is not wasted on crying is channelled elsewhere. Find the sleeping solution which works for you, co-sleeping, side-car-ing whatever ... take all clocks away from the bedroom with the incessant tick tick, only consider real waking up if you have to actually get out of bed etc. Maybe you could consider co-sleeping an investment for the future.

If your baby isn't hungry then isn't it reassuring to you, the parent, that your baby is calling for you and needing you - the sucking need is just as important as the actual nutrition a baby can receive from the breast, at this age they are so helpless, (anthropologically we, the human race, are born 9 months premature) you are the only ones who can give them what they need, I have noticed so much in today's society that to show love or affection to a child/baby is, in some cases, strictly forbidden, the new mother out with her baby in the pushchair, so many times I've seen such kind gestures and faces, her hand stretches out to touch, but she hesitates, rarely does the mother feel that she has the right to touch her baby, you do, pick the baby up carry her in your arms, sleep with your child, watch your little one sleeping listen to their soft breathing and heart beating, touch your baby's hand and kiss it, genuine love and caring is all your baby needs, a few more hours of being able to profit from your child's presence is a gift, did you realise what an important person you are? and you know you really are important both you and your partner, profit from this wonderful bonding time together and you'll never regret it.

Sorry got on to my alittle there, but its just a sore point that I hear many people discuss the pros and cons of CIO, I can see only the cons!!

[zomigi]

Well just as soon as you get super frustrated about sleeping, lo and behold, she sleeps from 11:30 pm to 6:30 am! I know we'll probably be right back to a horrible night again tonight, but it's nice to have some good ones thrown in there when you really need them.

One of my main problems is that DH is really frustrated and isn't totally on board with avoiding CIO. It's hard when both parents aren't in complete agreement. Don't get me wrong -- he's into the attachment parenting stuff to about the same degree as I am, generally. But it's hard for him to completely ignore his upbringing which taught him that babies cry to manipulate you, you spoil them by responding to them, etc. And it's hard for him to ignore the myriad of people who tell us that we have to let our DD cry herself to sleep, including the pediatrician. We know a *ton* of people with babies but don't know a single person who hasn't done CIO. If we could find someone who could actually share their experience of getting their baby to learn to sleep on its own without having to cry, he and I would feel a lot better, I think.

Another hard thing is I'm so unsure of myself -- I don't know if I am making it worse or not. If I didn't let her nap as much during the day, would she sleep better at night? But what am I supposed to do when she's fussing or crying and obviously tired?

Thanks for the encouragement and not being judgmental. Being on this forum usually depresses me, because it's full of people with 2 year olds who still aren't sleeping through the night. :-) But I know that's not a representative sample, since otherwise they wouldn't be on this forum! Must remember that.

[almadianna]

Part of what helped me and my husband really not give in to the temptation of CIO the MANY times when our AWFUL sleeper oldest daughter would get us to the point where we wanted to just give up was remembering that it is not the baby who is in the wrong... it is us. Many of our culture's expectations that a child needs to STTN without nursing or STTN at all before the age of 2 or 3 is flawed. We cannot truly expect a child to sleep more than a couple of hours at a certain age... and it is good. It is biological because they need to eat more often and they do not go into deep sleep, this is a survival instinct... not a flaw in their design or a fault in our parenting.

This is truly normal.

[UhOhWhatNow]

Mine doesn't CIO, I hate CIO and oppose it.

HOWEVER, sometimes when my son wakes in the middle of the night, I don't pick him up. Sometimes he just makes a few "uck, uck" kind of noises and sucks his hand and goes right back to sleep. This IMO is a great thing- he knows how to go back to sleep. But, if he actually starts to cry or do that breathing thing they do right before they cry, I pick him up, hug and kiss him, sing to him, cuddle him, and offer him the breast. I bring him to bed with me... and nurse him, then try again, or if I fall asleep, he just bed shares with me. This rarely happens to us these days- he's doing 7 hour stretches, and last night he did 9!

I don't have a set bedtime for him. He's only three months old! But even so, I intend to let him sleep when he's tired. If I put him down and he isn't ready, I never ever would just leave him screaming. Aside from thinking it's cruel, it activates my anxiety disorder. My very biology is opposed to CIO.

[listipton]

Originally Posted by alegna

Babies are babies. By definition they need mama. CIO is never okay. Never.

They are little for such a short time. Sleep with them, sleep while they nurse, cuddle them while they let you. Before you know it they'll be too big to cuddle.

-Angela

This is pretty much what I tell people when they ask my opinion on CIO, extended bfing, and responding to my babies when they are cry in general.

[KristaDJ]

Originally Posted by ewe+lamb

When a baby cries the stress hormone cortisol is released, this is the same stress hormone found in you or I or anyone in situations in which we find difficult, in babies because all the energy the baby has is redirected to crying - calling for help - then the energy is used to protect the baby and not to stimulate brain development and growth, a child who is cuddled in beside mum and dad is a reassured and happy child, who is more confident and trustworthy of his/her parents abilities to respond to them and therefore the energy which is not wasted on crying is channelled elsewhere. Find the sleeping solution which works for you, co-sleeping, side-car-ing whatever ... take all clocks away from the bedroom with the incessant tick tick, only consider real waking up if you have to actually get out of bed etc. Maybe you could consider co-sleeping an investment for the future.

If your baby isn't hungry then isn't it reassuring to you, the parent, that your baby is calling for you and needing you - the sucking need is just as important as the actual nutrition a baby can receive from the breast, at this age they are so helpless, (anthropologically we, the human race, are born 9 months premature) you are the only ones who can give them what they need, I have noticed so much in today's society that to show love or affection to a child/baby is, in some cases, strictly forbidden, the new mother out with her baby in the pushchair, so many times I've seen such kind gestures and faces, her hand stretches out to touch, but she hesitates, rarely does the mother feel that she has the right to touch her baby, you do, pick the baby up carry her in your arms, sleep with your child, watch your little one sleeping listen to their soft breathing and heart beating, touch your baby's hand and kiss it, genuine love and caring is all your baby needs, a few more hours of being able to profit from your child's presence is a gift, did you realise what an important person you are? and you know you really are important both you and your partner, profit from this wonderful bonding time together and you'll never regret it.

Sorry got on to my alittle there, but its just a sore point that I hear many people discuss the pros and cons of CIO, I can see only the cons!!

:

[1littlebit]

i think 6 mos is a rough time. thats probably when we stopped trying to put DS to bed. he hangs out with us and we hold him and cuddle and such while we watch a movie or w/e and he will fall asleep. sometimes i will go lay in bed with him and listen to books on tape (i get bored laying in a dark room with my half asleep toddler )

[UhOhWhatNow]

LET your baby nap during the day!!!!

The more my baby naps the BETTER he sleeps at night. When your child is sleepy, let her sleep JMO

[1littlebit]

Originally Posted by UhOhWhatNow

LET your baby nap during the day!!!!

The more my baby naps the BETTER he sleeps at night. When your child is sleepy, let her sleep JMO

this is true to.. ds naps for at least 2 hrs during the day... sometimes more.

[frontierpsych]

Originally Posted by UhOhWhatNow

LET your baby nap during the day!!!!

The more my baby naps the BETTER he sleeps at night. When your child is sleepy, let her sleep JMO

yeah, DS sleeps better if he's had some decent naps.

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by zomigi

Well just as soon as you get super frustrated about sleeping, lo and behold, she sleeps from 11:30 pm to 6:30 am! I know we'll probably be right back to a horrible night again tonight, but it's nice to have some good ones thrown in there when you really need them.

One of my main problems is that DH is really frustrated and isn't totally on board with avoiding CIO. It's hard when both parents aren't in complete agreement. Don't get me wrong -- he's into the attachment parenting stuff to about the same degree as I am, generally. But it's hard for him to completely ignore his upbringing which taught him that babies cry to manipulate you, you spoil them by responding to them, etc. And it's hard for him to ignore the myriad of people who tell us that we have to let our DD cry herself to sleep, including the pediatrician. We know a *ton* of people with babies but don't know a single person who hasn't done CIO. If we could find someone who could actually share their experience of getting their baby to learn to sleep on its own without having to cry, he and I would feel a lot better, I think.

Another hard thing is I'm so unsure of myself -- I don't know if I am making it worse or not. If I didn't let her nap as much during the day, would she sleep better at night? But what am I supposed to do when she's fussing or crying and obviously tired?

Thanks for the encouragement and not being judgmental. Being on this forum usually depresses me, because it's full of people with 2 year olds who still aren't sleeping through the night. :-) But I know that's not a representative sample, since otherwise they wouldn't be on this forum! Must remember that.

Yeah- its hard when you don't know anyone irl. We started doing attachment parenting partly cause of sil's kids turning out so well with co-sleeping, no cio etc. Our kids are doing great too. If its any consolation my 5 yr old and 3 yr old sleep through the night . I really believe in respecting kids/babies as much as we respect adults. If its not ok to ignore an adults cries of fear, frustration, anger- it doesn't follow that kids/babies cries should be ignored. I know its tempting (I've been there). To get out of discussions with friends/family who suggested cio I would sometimes blame it on my personality "Oh I would just ruin it, I wouldn't be able to stomach the cries" If you want to avoid debate that usually shut people up. You can do it. One night at a time

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by zomigi

Well just as soon as you get super frustrated about sleeping, lo and behold, she sleeps from 11:30 pm to 6:30 am! I know we'll probably be right back to a horrible night again tonight, but it's nice to have some good ones thrown in there when you really need them.

One of my main problems is that DH is really frustrated and isn't totally on board with avoiding CIO. It's hard when both parents aren't in complete agreement. Don't get me wrong -- he's into the attachment parenting stuff to about the same degree as I am, generally. But it's hard for him to completely ignore his upbringing which taught him that babies cry to manipulate you, you spoil them by responding to them, etc. And it's hard for him to ignore the myriad of people who tell us that we have to let our DD cry herself to sleep, including the pediatrician. We know a *ton* of people with babies but don't know a single person who hasn't done CIO. If we could find someone who could actually share their experience of getting their baby to learn to sleep on its own without having to cry, he and I would feel a lot better, I think.

Another hard thing is I'm so unsure of myself -- I don't know if I am making it worse or not. If I didn't let her nap as much during the day, would she sleep better at night? But what am I supposed to do when she's fussing or crying and obviously tired?

Thanks for the encouragement and not being judgmental. Being on this forum usually depresses me, because it's full of people with 2 year olds who still aren't sleeping through the night. :-) But I know that's not a representative sample, since otherwise they wouldn't be on this forum! Must remember that.

Well first b/c I agree it's hard when everyone else is telling you to ignore your instincts.

Second, yes, I do think you should remember that it's not a representative sample. I am the eldest of 11 kids and my mom did co-sleeping w/ all of us. Everyone was different. I think 8 or was it 9 out of the 11 STTN long before 2 years old. IMO there are so many variables that it's just NOT worth it to compare your kid to other kids. Things like birth weight, genetics, diet and personality can all affect sleep patterns.

I wonder if the main reason your baby's sleep patterns are bothering you is simply b/c others are telling you what you should think and feel? For example, I remember telling my midwife that DD was STTN at her 1 week checkup. The MW was surprised and asked for more details. So I told her that DD falls asleep sometime around midnight, wakes up in the middle of the night then again around 6 or 7. She laughed and said good thing that's what we think STTN is. Perspective can do wonders for parenting.

[bethanymama]

I read this board because I *used* to have a bad sleeper... and I feel the pain of all the mamas on here. So I should chime in. We never did CIO (but we also never coslept) and my 16 month DS has been STTN for several months now. Most of the time, unless he was sick, DS seemed to sleep worse in bed with me, so he always used his crib, across the hall in his room. I nursed DS 2-3 times a night until about 9 months, and then 1 time a night until about 11 months old. By night, I mean like 7pm-7am or so. At 12 months old, he was sleeping straight through until 6am without eating. Now, he's 16 months old, and he takes a 2.5-3 hour nap, and sleeps about 10.5 hours at night. Goes right to sleep at naptime and bedtime. So, it is possible!! They WILL sleep, soon, without CIO! Six months is just so little still. There were definitely bad bad spells, but it's all in phases.

He also was ADDICTED to being bounced to sleep. It was so tiring! Some nights I would spend a lot of time in his room, bouncing/rocking him for ages before he would let me lay him back in his crib. He would never just go back to sleep laying next to me. With my DS, he did sometimes have to cry, like when I needed to really break him of the bouncing addiction because my arms were about to fall off, sometimes I would bounce a little and stop, he would cry a little, bounce a little more and stop, etc. So sometimes he was not happy with me, but always in loving arms, with soft comforting voice in his ear.

I would say the things that helped me were routine (although it took a LONG time before he really caught onto it) and the NCSS strategy of changing the things you don't like very very gradually and slowly. Hang it there. It is so hard sometimes.

[robynholly]

What is the NCSS strategy of changing things?

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by zomigi

If we could find someone who could actually share their experience of getting their baby to learn to sleep on its own without having to cry, he and I would feel a lot better, I think.

We did. But you might have meant in person.

It took quite a long time (over 2) but progress was relatively steady except for - well all the usual things: Growth spurts, teething, colds, and weird sleep regressions. There were certain points at which we pushed things. Like we stopped nursing all the way down, and tried waking him up a bit before his 2 am wakeup, and some night weaning, and a lot of talk about staying asleep, books on sleep, etc.

There were times we were tired, but my husband and I shared the load quite a bit and also slowed things down to take daytime naps on weekends and stuff if we needed to.

He's almost 4 and sleeps fine.

One thing to consider is that CIO doesn't actually work once and for all for most people either. I had a few people insist it worked and then listening carefully, it turns out they had to "redo" it pretty much on the same schedule as my son would increase his wakings.

[bubbamummy]

I read 'Baby watching' by Desmond Morris and it tells the hideous truth behind 'CIO'. How it affects the baby in such awful ways. He writes 'some people think responding to a baby who cries is to spoil it, in my opinion a baby has been 'spoiled' when it realises the awful truth that no one responds to its cries and so gives up' (or words very similar). It had me crying when I read it. In my opionion cry-it-out method is never, ever acceptable.

[bubbamummy]

We did the NCSS and it worked a charm

[crpsmnwife]

Have you read Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution or checked out AskDrSears.com? They have some good gentle ways to help your baby sleep while maintaining your baby's trust. There have been times when I've felt like I was at the end of my rope with my son, but the cost of CIO is too high for us to pay. My son trusts me to be there for him, to comfort him, to hold him, to meet his needs. His trust is too precious.
And I must say, it DOES GET BETTER! My son is now 22 months old and he no longer nurses to sleep. Now when it's bedtime, he'll nurse, and then say "night night, nunnies", and he'll either have us rock him to sleep, or kiss him to sleep. Yes, he asks us to kiss him. All over his arms, his back, his face, his head - he LOVES it, and it's sooo sweet. It really makes up for all the times I was just plain TIRED of working so hard for my son's sleep. But it's better now, and it's totally worth it! And we read Pantley and Dr. Sears, and had PATIENCE. It'll work out.

[1littlebit]

am i the only one who doesn't really worry about bed time? my 16 month old is still awake. i'm getting a little worried now.

[Honey693]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

am i the only one who doesn't really worry about bed time? my 16 month old is still awake. i'm getting a little worried now.

My 8,5 month old is still up and will be for at least another hour.