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Questions about crying it out - Page 3  

post #41 of 62
my 2 and a half year old is up too... hopefully she will sleep soon because I am EXHAUSTED.. lol.
post #42 of 62
phew!!! i was starting to wonder..!!!
post #43 of 62
I've been strggling for months, and I had read NCSS, which didnt work for me, but I found The Sleep Book by Dr Sears to be a good fit for us. Hang in there
post #44 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuamami View Post
I do daycare for kids who have CIOed and have also seen the results of it with many of my friends' kids.

I do not believe that it teaches kids to self-soothe. I believe it teaches them to give up, and that bedtime is a time to feel stressed out.

My evidence is that all 3 of my kids will lay in their beds and quietly talk to themselves, read, hum, or fiddle if they can't fall asleep. If they want me, they call me and ask for a drink, an answer to whatever they were thinking about, or sometimes a snuggle, or a rock. But they also usually don't get up, and then usually, they fall asleep pretty quickly. Doesn't that sound wonderful? Doesn't that sound like self-soothing? It is! Wonderful and self-soothing!
I just have to respond to this. I am one-thousand percent against CIO, and never did it with my twins, even though they are both difficult sleepers and I am the only parent home at bedtime 5 nights a week. They are 3.5 years old now and despite 3.5 years of being gently and lovingly parented to sleep, and despite having each other's company at night, they will not lay in their beds and quietly talk, read, hum, or fiddle if they can't fall asleep. They will either lie there and cry for me to come back, or they will get out of bed and find me and cry for me to come back. I think this has much more to do with individual temperment than how a child falls asleep as a baby.

To the OP, I hope the whole discussion here has helped you. I know how tempting it is to believe that CIO is some magic bullet, but it's not. There are the psychological and physiological effects to consider, and also the fact that it doesn't even "work" with all kids.

I will say that one benefit of never doing CIO with my kids was that I felt in some weird way that not doing it meant that I hadn't reached the end of my rope. And that if I did ever get to that awful end, CIO would be there. Sort of in the way that nuclear bombs are there but no one ever wants to or intends to use them. Does that make any weird sense to anyone else but me?
post #45 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by claddaghmom View Post
Well first b/c I agree it's hard when everyone else is telling you to ignore your instincts.

Second, yes, I do think you should remember that it's not a representative sample. I am the eldest of 11 kids and my mom did co-sleeping w/ all of us. Everyone was different. I think 8 or was it 9 out of the 11 STTN long before 2 years old. IMO there are so many variables that it's just NOT worth it to compare your kid to other kids. Things like birth weight, genetics, diet and personality can all affect sleep patterns.

I wonder if the main reason your baby's sleep patterns are bothering you is simply b/c others are telling you what you should think and feel? For example, I remember telling my midwife that DD was STTN at her 1 week checkup. The MW was surprised and asked for more details. So I told her that DD falls asleep sometime around midnight, wakes up in the middle of the night then again around 6 or 7. She laughed and said good thing that's what we think STTN is. Perspective can do wonders for parenting.

Bolding mine. ITA. To be honest, I don't think we can say our kids have "good" sleep habits (i.e., stay in bed and talk with themselves, never run out of the room etc) because we didn't let them CIO. Every kid is different. We did not CIO and our child did all sorts of crazy things before going to bed. She would often resist going to bed and sometimes she was flat out scared (we cosleep). Yes, we listened to our child and parented her, but did that cause her to have better "sleep habits"? No, I don't think so. We were with our child b/c it felt like the right thing to do, not b/c we were trying to "teach" her habits. I think every kid is different. Some just sleep better than others at certain times. I am saying this as all of us who parent at night. I am not comparing us with people who CIO. I mean to say there is huge variation on how our kids respond and sleep, with those of us who parent at night.

One thing I think is pretty universal, is that they do eventually fall asleep on their own. My dd asks to be put to bed sometimes. I do feel for you OP, it felt like it was never going to happen when she was very little. It is all a distant blur from here (not so much of a blur that I want to have another, though). Sleep deprivation sucks!!!
post #46 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by OGirlieMama View Post
I just have to respond to this. I am one-thousand percent against CIO, and never did it with my twins, even though they are both difficult sleepers and I am the only parent home at bedtime 5 nights a week. They are 3.5 years old now and despite 3.5 years of being gently and lovingly parented to sleep, and despite having each other's company at night, they will not lay in their beds and quietly talk, read, hum, or fiddle if they can't fall asleep. They will either lie there and cry for me to come back, or they will get out of bed and find me and cry for me to come back. I think this has much more to do with individual temperment than how a child falls asleep as a baby.

I posted before I saw this post. Yeah, that!! ITA!!!
post #47 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by robynholly View Post
What is the NCSS strategy of changing things?
NCSS = No Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley. Basically, the way I remember it anyway, is she will try to ease towards a change very gently and gradually. So, the goal is to get your baby to feel comfortable to fall asleep without your help, with the idea that will help her sleep better and wake less throughout the night. If your baby falls asleep nursing, you try to end the nursing session before she is in a deep sleep. But if she protests too much, you give the breast back and try again. And again. And again. And if it never works, and you are tired and she is tired, just nurse to sleep again, and try the next time. And you start very gradually. Maybe she's technically asleep when you first try to remove the breast, but not in a deep deep sleep, and you do that for several days or a week. And you just go from there, at your own pace. It's hard work though, and takes a long time. And a lot of the time it will feel like nothing is changing. But babies are so new to this world, and it takes them a while, but eventually they catch on. But IMO it's worth it in the end.

I agree that sleep habits are really just personality, developmental, whatever. Not doing CIO is definitely not the ticket to having a child that sleeps well. It's just about doing what you are comfortable with, and parenting in the way you feel is the most respectful and caring for your child. There's a lot more to parenting than putting your baby to sleep.
post #48 of 62
Just a little story about my experience:

Our DD was about 6 months old and I was still getting up several times in the middle of the night. My DH (now my ex husband) was convinced that I needed to just let her cry for 10 minutes. He would ask me why I got up the second that I heard her fuss. Well one night he was very adamant about me leaving her to cry for 10 minutes. I sat there at the end of my bed staring at the clock completely stressed out, going against every fiber of my being. After 5 minutes I stood up and said "Something is wrong!!!" She had gotten louder and panicked. I ran into her room and her leg was stuck between the crib rails and the wall. She wasn't hurt, but she was so upset and scared. It took about 15 minutes to even get her calm enough for me to nurse her. She was practically hyperventilating. I told DH that I would NEVER NEVER let her cry again. If he didn't want to get up, I would.

A coworker of my exhusband had a baby around the same time and tried to convince me that I was spoiling my baby too. I told him that if he couldn't talk and he was put in a dark room and couldn't get up, couldn't go anywhere, how he would feel. I said that I would scream for someone to come get me and if no one came, if they just left me there, I would feel awful. If I wouldn't do that to an adult, why would I do that to a baby?
He didn't really have a response for that.

Oh and just to let you know, both of my kids were sleeping fine either through the night or getting up only once for a quick feeding by 1 year. I only co-slept with them as newborns, but I responded to their needs VERY quickly. They are still awesome sleepers today (5yrs and 9yrs)...no training necessary

My mantra (passed down from my mother) "this too shall pass"
Keep up the exhausting good work and know that in most cases it is just part of babyhood. How your baby sleeps at 6 months doesn't predict the future.
post #49 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by robynholly View Post
Tell me more about how it causes brain damage. I know he is not hungry because he doesn't want to eat Thanks for all your help!
If you can, I'd recommend buying The Science of Parenting by the Director of Education and Training, Centre for Child Mental Health in London.

It is all based on scientific studies on the early brain development of children, and has some great information on the effects of crying on babies.

A quick summary provided on one page is that when a baby is left to cry alone, high levels of toxic stress hormones wash over the brain (cortisol), and there is a withdrawal of the "feel good" chemicals (endorphins) in the brain. Over time, the cortisol inhibits the formation of necessary connections in the brain, and actually causes the stress centre of the brain to become hardwired to be oversensitive. This "damage" can lead to such things as depression and anxiety disorders in adulthood.

Another thing to consider is that when babies are left alone to cry, pain circuits in the brain are activated - the same ones that would be if baby was hurt physically.

I highly recommend this book, it has been a great discussion tool with my DH.

This isn't even addressing the emotional distress that baby and parents go through with CIO - detachment rather than attachment.

Someone here has also posted this list of reasons not to CIO, which is a great summary: http://www.phdinparenting.com/2008/07/05/no-cry-it-out/


My son is 14.5 months old and has slept with us since he was about 3 months old. In the evening we get him to sleep by a) me nursing him b) DH holding and humming to him, or c) patting his back while he lies on his tummy. C is new and doesn't always work, but he's slowly developing the ability to fall asleep without being held. It's perfectly natural, as babies are hardwired to want to always be near a parent (necessary for survivial for millenia), so just try and remember to respect the baby's pace and needs.

As adults, we're the ones who decided to have children, so it's up to us to make the sacrifices - not the innocent babies.
post #50 of 62
Both my sister and I have had a host of sleeping "issues" throughout childhood and adulthood- mainly insomnia and anxiety about falling asleep. Especially me. When I was about eight or so (with recurring episodes for years) I went through this period of about a year where I would get these paralyzing and terrifying panic attacks if I couldn't fall asleep. I would be hyperventilating and crying and my parents, though not totally unsympathetic, would make me stay in my room alone until I eventually fell asleep. I can't say this with any certainty or proof, but I really believe all my sleep problems have a great deal to do with my parents leaving me to cry it out in my own room right from the first day they brought me home from the hospital. My parents are avid supporters of CIO.

I do understand why some people practice CIO. My daughter (seven months) has never been a good sleeper and is still up every two hours at night. I am exhausted and I don't think I am ever going to have another child for this very reason. However, I believe there is this bond of trust between a baby and her parents (mother in particular) that when baby cries her mother responds as quickly as she can. If this bond is broken, especially if it is broken over and over again, there is both short term and long term damage to the baby. This is all my opinion, I have no evidence or sources to back it up other than my own childhood, but this is one of the MANY reasons I will never let my daughter CIO.

Good luck- I know how hard it is to be so tired, but keep telling yourself it won't last forever!
post #51 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by syd'smom View Post
Here's one article for you!
The Harvard study doesn't actually prove that CIO causes damage. In fact I don't think there are any studies which prove conclusively it does or does not. Whether this is because it doesn't cause harm, the harm isn't quantifiable or it's a tricky subject to study ethically, I don't know.

I do agree with the poster who said that a heck of a lot of it is personality. But it is possible to help a child develop good sleep habits. Of course the degree of success you have will at least depend in part on personality.

To the OP: I hope the good sleeps continue.
post #52 of 62
A few more things the CIO people don't often say...

1.) It may "work", but often just for a while. Different needs will disrupt sleep patters. So, you "try CIO" and eureka! It "works"! 2 months later, baby catches a cold, is up at night and you are back to "square one", going through the nighttime screaming CIO deal again. Many people who CIO go through the process many, many times. It is not a "solution". And, who is to say that the "good sleeping" and the "bad sleeping" would not have happened independently, when the babies were ready?

2.) There is a toll on parents. Many people focus on the "but then they sleep" idea. They do not talk about the distraught parents on the other side of the door, "waiting" for the right time to go in, feeling lousy listening to their baby cry. I've heard a lot of CIO'ers describing how they themselves cried on the other side of the door.

3.) Virtually everyone I know who has done (or tried) CIO has been at the end of their rope. It is very rarely a "first choice" and very often a last resort. I think this is telling.
post #53 of 62
Heres our sleep story. For the first, oh probably 18 months or so of my DS' life (he's nearly 28 months now) we had *NO* schedule at all, what so ever. DS fell asleep when he fell asleep, and woke up when he woke up. *Usually* this was by/around 9ish at night. I generally held him, or wore him, for naps for the first year or so then gradually started laying him down. But naps were mostly unscheduled to (though he usually took one ~10amish, and one ~2pmish). Around 15-18 or so months I started laying down with him upstairs in our bed around 8:30-9ish untill he fell asleep. I also started laying down with him around 2ish and then getting up once he fell asleep and doing other stuff around the house (Ok, so mostly reading/messing on MDC...).

Then, one day, around 22 or so months I'd had a *very* long morning and he was cranky and upset and I just took him upstairs and layed him down and said 'its nap time. Its sleep time. Go. To. Sleep.' and walked away and closed the door... and you know what? He cried for like 15 seconds... and then he FELL ASLEEP. And so thats what we started doing at nap time, and then gradually at bedtime. Sometime in the past 3 months or so, we've fallen into a very definet routine for both nap & bedtimes - naps are ~2pmish, read 3-4 books and then nap time. He usually whines "mama..." as I leave, but I can deal with that since he then falls asleep. Bedtime is 8:30-9pmish and we read 2-4 books of his choosing, then I Love You Because Your You, then Guess How Much I Love You and finally Goodnight Moon. In that order. Every. Single. Night. (unless he falls asleep during one, in which case I get to skip one or two!! ). And just like at nap time he whines for 5-10 seconds, rolls over and goes to sleep.

I should say that we also moved him into a 'big boy bed' around the time we developed this routine. And that he does often wake up at night (2-4ish is typical) and I just take him back to his room and tell him its still sleepy time and he goes back to sleep. Its amazing. Its wonderful. But I can not imagine making him truely CIO, not now, and not ever... 10-30 seconds of whining I can deal with. 5, 10, 15 minutes? No way. Nor can I even begin to imagine locking him in his room at night.
post #54 of 62

I've researched information for weeks about sleep patterns, CIO, non-CIO methods  and have come to this conclusion. There is virtually NO scientific evidence that suggests that CIO is toxic to children. The only evidence these "experts" can draw upon are studies of abused children. These children may not be fed, clothed and are neglected in more ways than just abandonment. If one thinks that CIO and abuse are correlated then that is an opinion. These are the facts when we cry we relieve ourselves of toxic hormones. Sleep deprivation can CAUSE these toxic hormones to build up and cause brain damage in the forms of many brain diseases we know today. Children lack the frontal lobe development to reason that they may be tired. One may choose to breastfeed an inconsolable child as it provides oxytocin and other biochemical that can soothe the baby but breastfeeding is primarily for food. I am more concerned about the associations between breastfeeding for comfort and the long term habits of emotional eating. We are one of the top 20  countries with an obesity epidemic, childhood obesity no less, which interestingly enough can also be a symptom of among other things including lack of sleep. Babies cry, it's what they do, nobody is a bad mother because their child cries. They will continue to cry long after they mature into adults. A sleep deprived mother is nothing to sneer at- I hurt my baby because I did not get enough sleep. I am the primary caregiver. I dropped him, my reflexes were too slow and he could have been hurt a lot worse than he was. This is the reality of sleep deprivation. Some people have easy children and others have high needs but if caregivers aren't well rested their children are at risk for danger. The links for my claims are listed below in order.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Frey+WH+2nd%2C+DeSota-Johnson+D%2C+Hoffman+C%2C+McCall+JT.+(1981)+%E2%80%9CEffect+of+stimulus+on+the+chemical+composition+of+human+tears%2C%E2%80%9D+American+Journal+of+Ophthalmology%2C+92%3A559-567%2C

 

http://acsh.org/2013/10/study-shows-sleep-enhances-removal-potentially-toxic-brain-debris/

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/issue_briefs/brain_development/how.cfm

http://www.fao.org/publications/sofa/en/

http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/childhood/problem.html

http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/features/important-sleep-habits

post #55 of 62
None of your links were to research demonstration the CIO is not harmful. I'm not sure what point you were trying to make with them.

There are actually several studies suggesting that CIO may be harmful. One which found that while babies do stop crying and their mother's levels of stress hormones return to normal the babies levels do not. So they are not "self-soothing" just learning not to cry. Which is not the same thing at all.

There is also *no* evidence that breast feeding for comfort leads to emotional overeatimg in later life. On the contrary, breast feeding is associated with healthy weight later in life.

I do not underestimate the effects of sleep deprivation on parents. Sleep deprivation has long been used as a form of torture. But there is no evidence to support CIO and developing evidence of its harm. Make no mistake about that.

You may also like to check the User Agreement before you post again. MDC does not allow pro-CIO posting.
post #56 of 62

If you were looking for any propaganda  pro CIO then my point might not ring clear. I was simply stating facts I'm not endorsing anyone's ideology. People have opinions but when drawing conclusions is it imperative to look at the facts. I'd like to see the references to those studies if you don't mind.


Edited by mamamayhem - 11/26/13 at 1:24pm
post #57 of 62
post #58 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamamayhem View Post

If you were looking for any propaganda  pro CIO then my point might not ring clear. I was simply stating facts I'm not endorsing anyone's ideology. People have opinions but when drawing conclusions is it imperative to look at the facts. I'd like to see the references to those studies if you don't mind.

I can assure you that I am not looking for pro-CIO propaganda. I am wholeheartedly against CIO for both health and ethical reasons.

Here is the link to the research I mentioned http://www.earlyhumandevelopment.com/article/S0378-3782(11)00270-2/abstract

Please note that I am *not* claiming it is the one study to end them all. Simply that it adds weight to the argument against CIO.

ETA - here is the link to the Australian Association for Infant Mental Health position paper on CIO. They include a bibliography at the end
http://www.aaimhi.org/inewsfiles/controlled_crying.pdf
post #59 of 62

While I enjoyed reading these last few posts, I thought this entire subforum discouraged any discussion of CIO or sleep training whatosever--it either being against policy or simply not the right forum for it. 

post #60 of 62

 This thread is from 2009.  If you have an issue you would like to discuss, it is better to start a new discussion rather than reviving something that is 4 years old.  Mothering does not host pro-CIO discussion.  Please see the forum guidelines.  @mamamayhem please edit your posts or they will be removed.

Thank you

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