Concerned about friends DD

[ann_of_loxley]

Maybe its not my place (not being my DD) - but I am concerned and her mother is a good person and would welcome any advice as it is something she struggles with herself (as in, dealing with her DD)...

Her DD is your typical girl - she loves pink and all things girly. But what concerned me is that she is obsessed (already at 3 years of age!) with beauty. It is a daily struggle. Unless she is wearing some Disney princess dress she is not beautiful/pretty (her words). Tantrums if she can not wear a certain dress because she will be 'ugly' (her words) (just the other day the whole family did not end up going out for the day to a playground because her DD was SO upset over being 'ugly' - did I say she is only three years old?!). All the time - every time. She must be pretty or she will be ugly ...and it is real. It is not her pretending she is a princess sometimes, etc.

This would concern me if this were my own DD. She is a beautiful little girl. What is on the inside is what matters. But how do you help a child recieve this message and understand it/etc - without thinking she is only pretty wearing certain thing and looking a certain way and ugly otherwise? ...

Or is this normal three year old girl behaviour?

[velochic]

I don't think all girls are like this (my own isn't), but I also think it has to start with the mother. It sounds like she's mimicking what she hears from her mother. If her mother won't go out without being perfectly coiffed, put together, and feels her self-worth is in her looks, then the girl is going to feel the same way.

The media has such a strong influence in children's lives, as well. If she is being exposed to a lot of adverts via T.V. she is going to pick up this vibe from there as well.

Unless the mother stresses that beauty comes from the inside and that you can't say a person is beautiful just because of the way they look, then the little girl is going put a priority on outside appearance. I don't think you can do anything unless the mother sees it and affects the change.

[cloe]

take away disney cartoons... in fact limit all tv and she may well stop.

[MsChatsAlot]

Everyone walks their own path. As an older role model in her life, you can just be who you are and show her by example over the years that you value her as a person...because of who she is inside.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

^ yeah, what ChatsAlot said.

IMO, this is alarming behavior....IMO, this is a girl with potential body image issues in her future. Having seen someone who struggled like this, from a YOUUUUNG age...I can tell you, a person can throw away their whole life, health, career, ability to have chidlren, everything...EVERYTHING...on the types of unhealthy things that come along with severe body image issues...so, yeah...IMO, ALARMING.

BUT....MY opinion is not the one which matters. And, I say this with a soft, loving voice....YOUR opinion, is not the one that matters, either. Her mothers opinion, for NOW, is the one which matters....but we're rapidly approaching a time when it's really going to be out of her hands. A three year old is only really beginning to develop a real private life, do you know what I mean by that? As a kid gets older and older, they have a more important private life....a one year old, very external...two year old, very external, asks questions about EVERYTHING....and so on....but as they get older, people become more and more internal with their deepest thoughts abut themselves and the way they relate to other people and the world, becoming more and move private. I don't know WHEN that really is....but it sounds like this girl is really expiditing "growing up"...as far as her ideas about self and life...ugh.

If it comes up...ask the mama if there is anything you can do to help, confide that it makes you feel sad to see wuch a beautiful little person so emotional about her body and "prettiness"...and just throw it out there, that anything you can do to help her, you will do. I think that's a better way to show your concern, you know? Then, maybe it will cause to mama to say something like "well, what do you mean by 'help'...what would you DO?" - and open up a dialogue. You just don't want to make her feel judged, because she probably already feels badly about herself...she could probably use your support.

What is this mama like, with her own self image, body issues, etc...things good? Or not so much?? Does the little lass watch a ton of TV??? I'll tell you, this is one of the reasons that we have a "no tv before DDs bed time" policy (which, actually, we don't really need since we don't really watch TV) and why TV will not be following us when we move to our new house. It's just a rotting, time wasting, expensive -nothingness-. I really, really hate TV.

Man, it pains me to hear about a young little baby like this, who has such obssesive ideas about "pretty". I've never known anything more beautiful than a little kid...they really know how to show their souls, you know? You really ge to see the insides of a little kid...before they start hiding it away, tuck it deep within themselves as they grow up. THat's why I will always support my DD in any pursuit and why I believe so strongly in gentle ways with her...I just want her to be okay, on a soul level...I want her to love herself, from that place. You know? Anyway, I'm rambling now, so Ill stop!

[ell]

I'm sure it's concerning her mother too. I would keep my nose out of it, except if she ever said anything like that around me I'd make sure I said "I think you're beautiful just the way you are!"

[Down2Earth]

Originally Posted by cloe

take away disney cartoons... in fact limit all tv and she may well stop.

:

[geekmoma]

I could have written your post, except that it's about my own almost 4-year-old DD.

From the age of 2, she loved colorful design or "girly" design on her clothing. Starting from 2.5 she became obsessed with pink and Disney princesses, mainly picked up from her playmates. She loves to watch movies of all kinds (including robots, animals and cars), but stays fascinated only to those with pretty girls and princesses. She is independent in dressing herself every morning (since 2.5), and if she's not satisfied with her outfit, it would make her day miserable. She would ONLY wear dresses and skirts. On the other hand, she's a bright little girl with, I'd say, a good sense of anesthetic appreciation. She is naturally drawn to beauty, and started spontaneously appreciating the beauty of nature (sunset, flowers, autumn leaves) before 3.

As a strong opponent of gender stereotyping, I was concerned and worried about raising a daughter fixated on superficial beauty. I don't own makeup, haven't have a haircut for over a year (long pony tail), use the same cream/lotion as my DDs, haven't bought new clothing since last year, etc. But I'm, like her, naturally drawn to visual beauty. I would stare at 2D advertisement just to appreciate the design (and can't care less what it wants to sale). Although every morning I spend in average 10 seconds to be ready to go out, I love watching how people dresses themselves on the street, which for me is a parade of self-expression and creativity. It's appealing to me.

One thing I do is to teach her about inner beauty when the occasion is right, and what really matters is a good heart and empathy, no matter how pretty your dress is. I make up stories of pretty girls not liked by friends because she was not nice to them. I make her notice my simple and dark-colored clothing and tell her although I love being pretty, I'm fine with this too. It doesn't matter. She still loves me because I a good mom to her.

In my case, my DD's obsession is mostly innate. If it's not about Disney princesses, it would be about something else 100% girly. I tried to fight this natural tendency but failed miserably. Now, (much to my dismay) I let her be, but don't encourage. She was already very specific about clothing at 2 and now almost 4, I can't (and won't) force her to wear something she hates. I don't know if my teaching about inner beauty is taking effect, but I hope it will sink in at some point.

Young children have a pretty black/white way of seeing the world. I don't think your friends' DD's behavior is universal, but it's within the norm. I think (and am hoping!) this is only a stage. I heard accounts of girls obsessed with superficial beauty when young grew up to be completely the opposite. I have hope!

[Kay11]

Originally Posted by geekmoma

I could have written your post, except that it's about my own almost 4-year-old DD.

From the age of 2, she loved colorful design or "girly" design on her clothing. Starting from 2.5 she became obsessed with pink and Disney princesses, mainly picked up from her playmates. She loves to watch movies of all kinds (including robots, animals and cars), but stays fascinated only to those with pretty girls and princesses. She is independent in dressing herself every morning (since 2.5), and if she's not satisfied with her outfit, it would make her day miserable. She would ONLY wear dresses and skirts. On the other hand, she's a bright little girl with, I'd say, a good sense of anesthetic appreciation. She is naturally drawn to beauty, and started spontaneously appreciating the beauty of nature (sunset, flowers, autumn leaves) before 3.

As a strong opponent of gender stereotyping, I was concerned and worried about raising a daughter fixated on superficial beauty. I don't own makeup, haven't have a haircut for over a year (long pony tail), use the same cream/lotion as my DDs, haven't bought new clothing since last year, etc. But I'm, like her, naturally drawn to visual beauty. I would stare at 2D advertisement just to appreciate the design (and can't care less what it wants to sale). Although every morning I spend in average 10 seconds to be ready to go out, I love watching how people dresses themselves on the street, which for me is a parade of self-expression and creativity. It's appealing to me.

One thing I do is to teach her about inner beauty when the occasion is right, and what really matters is a good heart and empathy, no matter how pretty your dress is. I make up stories of pretty girls not liked by friends because she was not nice to them. I make her notice my simple and dark-colored clothing and tell her although I love being pretty, I'm fine with this too. It doesn't matter. She still loves me because I a good mom to her.

In my case, my DD's obsession is mostly innate. If it's not about Disney princesses, it would be about something else 100% girly. I tried to fight this natural tendency but failed miserably. Now, (much to my dismay) I let her be, but don't encourage. She was already very specific about clothing at 2 and now almost 4, I can't (and won't) force her to wear something she hates. I don't know if my teaching about inner beauty is taking effect, but I hope it will sink in at some point.

Young children have a pretty black/white way of seeing the world. I don't think your friends' DD's behavior is universal, but it's within the norm. I think (and am hoping!) this is only a stage. I heard accounts of girls obsessed with superficial beauty when young grew up to be completely the opposite. I have hope!

Ditto. I've actively discouraged family members from saying my dd looks "pretty" if she's wearing a certain item of clothing or has her hair a certain way, though they can call dd and ds beautiful all they want because in our house they mean totally different things. Despite that, dd is obsessed with pretty things and looking pretty rather than ugly. I have no idea where it's come about. We don't watch Disney stuff, I limit their tv viewing quite seriously, but it seems an innate thing in dd. She'll only wear dresses for example, and they have to be a certain type.

The funny thing is that I don't spend more than 5 min getting dressed in the morning, so it's not, as some pp have suggested, come from me. Nor has it come from other female family members because they all live thousands of miles away. So I'd be less quick to worry and judge or speculate.

Oh, and for the record, prior to having dd, I'll admit I'd have assumed it came from the mum too.

[shanniesue2]

maybe the mom could start making a real effort to point out the positive about things that aren't necessarily pretty. Like if she sees another little girl who's having the time of her life, but has her hair going all over the place and a scuff mark on the knee of her pants, she could say, "look at that little girl, she looks like she's having so much fun! She must really be a neat person to be around." Just say things like that kind of subtly... be careful not to give negative messages about being pretty, because that's not really the point... it's okay to be pretty.... but not being "pretty" doesn't make someone ugly, either.

[Fuamami]

Yes, I agree with the pps. For some kids, this is just innate. And not necessarily just girls. My ds1, who is about the most typical boy you could ever imagine, is also very particular about his appearance. Of course, he doesn't care about being pretty, but wants to look cool like his daddy and some other men that he sees as role models.

My niece, who watched very little TV, was also like this at age 3. And her mother doesn't spend a ton of time on her appearance, either. She looks nice, and wears professional clothes when she works, but I would never describe her as perfectly coiffed. But my niece was obsessed with clothes. Now, at age 8, she still really enjoys dressing up, but has also found some other artistic outlets. I think that's what it was really about for her. And her self-esteem seems just fine.

[Brisen]

Originally Posted by velochic

I don't think all girls are like this (my own isn't), but I also think it has to start with the mother. It sounds like she's mimicking what she hears from her mother.

My 4.5 yo dd is similar to this, though not to the point that she won't go out or will throw a tantrum. She likes wearing skirts or dresses with tights and nice dress shoes, and she likes carrying a purse everywhere. She has fun playing with clips in her hair.

I wear simple clothes, mostly jeans and a plain t and a hoodie or cardigan. A skirt once a week. Rarely jewelry, never make up, and my hair is always very simple. I hate clothes shopping and avoid it at costs. She's not getting it from me.

[Cherry Alive]

Originally Posted by velochic

I don't think all girls are like this (my own isn't), but I also think it has to start with the mother. It sounds like she's mimicking what she hears from her mother. If her mother won't go out without being perfectly coiffed, put together, and feels her self-worth is in her looks, then the girl is going to feel the same way.

I politely disagree with this. Unless the mom is actively putting herself down, I don't think the daughter would pick up on it to the point of being OCD, and even so I'm not sure if it would happen until the LO was a teen.

I say this bc I myself have a strong belief in being "perfectly coiffed." Got it from my own mom (who is OCD about it), but it didn't really effect me or my sister until we were teens—and even then, we aren't obsessed about it. It has little to do with feeling our self worth is in our looks and more to do with believing we deserve to look our best. It's a gift we give ourselves every day. Of course, like I said, we aren't OCD about it. We do have days we'll go to the store in our pajamas.

Anyhow, there's a very good chance that what this little girl is just going through is just a phase. I knew someone who would only eat ritz crackers as a kid. It got to the point his parents were so worried, they took him to a therapist (the therapist advacated spanking him —only time the parents ever did spank). The guy got over it, and grew into a good man who eats normally.

[Norasmomma]

Yeah this isn't just a girl problem, my friend's son is obsessed with Disney princess, long hair and being beautiful. He owns more dress up princessy dresses then my little girl even remotely has.

It could very well just be a thing with her personality. i was always more girl than my mom. She barely wears make-up, I always wanted make-up, my hair fixed. that was just my personality, and YK we are still totally different. I wear tight clothes, my mom wears baggy clothes that make her look 20 lbs heavier than she is. She always is trying to pull up my shirt because of my cleavage, then buys me clothes that she likes.

It may not even have anything to do with TV or her mom, it may just be she's predisposed to having issues with that kind of thing.

[FondestBianca]

Originally Posted by cloe

take away disney cartoons... in fact limit all tv and she may well stop.

the problem is not TV. The problem is that the RL role models in her life have such a small influence (their fault. not to be mean but, true) that the little girl just may be looking to the TV for role models. A grounded child with strong, positive, very involved RL role models (parents number one but older siblings, aunts & uncles, grandparents, cousins, etc) won't be influenced by what they see on TV. If we were talking about teens or even pre-teens this would be a different story but, this is A 3 YEAR OLD! "Good" parents can slip up sometimes. We all do here and there. "Good" parents sometimes don't notice when something slips by but those parents need to step in and do damage control the second they see a red flag. The fact that they ended up staying home from the park because their dd thought she was too "ugly" to go out is an indication that they are letting this get even further. IME 3 year olds LOVE going to the park... so the fact that she is so upset about her image that she will keep herself from something she probably loves doing is kinda scary.

If you just turn off the TV, tell her to stop saying bad things about herself, call her beautiful and assume that when she stops saying it she has stopped thinking it you very well could be dead wrong. If the TV goes off and the bad talk stops it could simply be because she doesn't have as many environmental reminders to bring those thoughts to the forefront. But, she probably still thinks those things without saying them. Turning off the tube IS NOT damage control. Calling her beautiful IS NOT damage control. It will take effort to retrain her little brain... even at 3 years old.

When I was young (and still today in fact, on my 25th birthday), if someone makes me aware that they don't like something negative I'm saying about myself I simply stop saying it. I still think it and have it looping around in my mind. So, just because it's not being said doesn't mean it isn't internalized. You need to start hearing positive things coming out of ehr mouth before you even consider the problem on the up and up.

[felix23]

That could have been me at 3 years old. I used to wake my mom up in the middle of the night to fix my hair because it bothered me to sleep with messed up hair. I hated getting dirty and I loved to dress up. Of course my parents wouldn't have given into my crying about being ugly, they would have just taken me to the park any way. I remember spending an entire park trip sitting on the bench crying because I didn't like my socks.

It wasn't tv or poor role models, it was just my personality, and I did eventually grow out of it. As an adult I still like dressing up, but I feel good about myself even when I am wearing sweat pants and a t-shirt.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, she most likely will outgrow this stage.

[Down2Earth]

Hmmm... I think I remember reading somewhere that kids that age can get obsessed with their looks and clothing. Does that sound familiar to anyone? Could this be a normal developmental thing?

[geekmoma]

Originally Posted by FondestBianca

the problem is not TV. The problem is that the RL role models in her life have such a small influence (their fault. not to be mean but, true) that the little girl just may be looking to the TV for role models. A grounded child with strong, positive, very involved RL role models (parents number one but older siblings, aunts & uncles, grandparents, cousins, etc) won't be influenced by what they see on TV.

I beg to disagree. In fact, I think what differs our point of view is that you believe a child's temperament and personality is mainly due to environmental influence, while I think for a big part we're born with it. It's no different than our health: how our body manifests itself is determined by both our genes and the way we live. Regardless of our lifestyle, some more susceptible to one kind of disease than others.

We all agree how even a 3-year-old can perceive little details and internalize feelings. My DD1 has always loved pretty and girly drawings and pictures: however the princess obsession appeared literally overnight, after she met this very nice and social 4-year-old, who is equally drawn to girly stuff. I know her mom: she's very much down to earth like me and has been rolling her eyes about this obsession of her DD. They have such a blast playing princess-themed games together that we simply don't have the heart to ban it in any way. My DD is very socially aware: if in a playground everyone is barefoot, she would also remove her shoes without anyone saying anything about it. While I see potential vulnerability of this sensitivity, I don't consider it "scary" or wrong. It's simply who she is.

Originally Posted by FondestBianca

"Good" parents can slip up sometimes. We all do here and there. "Good" parents sometimes don't notice when something slips by but those parents need to step in and do damage control the second they see a red flag. The fact that they ended up staying home from the park because their dd thought she was too "ugly" to go out is an indication that they are letting this get even further. IME 3 year olds LOVE going to the park... so the fact that she is so upset about her image that she will keep herself from something she probably loves doing is kinda scary.

Probably in some cases there's a strong parental influences, but I'm very certain it's not the case of my DD and her friend. You're right that we all slip occasionally, and I'm no different than others, but for some unknown reason my consciously chosen, non gender-based parenting (DD never wore pink before 2) started "failing" at 2, even before she's allowed any princess movies, books or toys. We don't watch TV programs at home: the only screen time they've got is through DVD. Assuming we all occasionally slip, and I'm not worse than other moms, how can I explain it otherwise, except it being part of her innate personality?

I wouldn't call it a "red flag" or "scary". My DD is a bright, confident and social girl, with some behavioral slips perfectly normal for her age. She would also not go to the park if unhappy about her outfit; but I see this choice no different than other choices, such as choosing to stay home to "read" books instead of going to the park. And frankly, she loves both.

[Snuzzmom]

Originally Posted by Kay11

Ditto. I've actively discouraged family members from saying my dd looks "pretty" if she's wearing a certain item of clothing or has her hair a certain way, though they can call dd and ds beautiful all they want because in our house they mean totally different things.

I honestly don't see how "pretty" and "beautiful" are different. "Beautiful" by definition is an extreme form of "pretty." Would you mind elaborating on how they are different for you?

[Down2Earth]

^Hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, but I think Kay11 means she doesn't like it when people say that her DD is pretty because of some external thing, like a dress or ribbon or something else. But that it is perfectly okay to say that DD is pretty as a person, as a whole, not because she was to dress up or put on make up. Am I right? I hope that makes sense, at least that is what I thought she meant.