is this worth making a fuss over? - Page 3

[spughy]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

But the doll is clearly a foster doll and I don't think it's legal for your dd to breastfeed a foster doll even if she has milk available from nursing her own dolls.

That is so true!!!! Of course! It all makes sense now.

[BlueStateMama]

Pumping is a PITA. I honor the mamas that work and make the commitment to pump FT for their breastfed babies - that is a job and a half!

This was such a HUGE deal for me when I had DS (my first.) Now, that I have two weaned children that were EBF, it's just not that big a deal. My DD (4, weaned about 3 1/2) still remembers nursing, but will "bottle feed" her stuffed animal kittens "because their mama is away." Our actions speak louder than toys or symbols. My children know that babies get mama nursies, but if mama is away they get bottles to feed them. Honestly, what else? Babies starve if mama works?

[2xy]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

i don't understand why that is the only thing you took from my post. it wasn't the point at all.

Sorry. I found that post a little hard to understand.

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

i think that what will truly be indicative in a change of attitude in favor of bfing is when people don't look at a bottle and think formula.

Was this the point? That people's perception of bottles are what causes people to not breastfeed? Because that's how it reads, to me.

[NoraB]

I totally get the negative reaction towards the bottle. I understand it's a useful tool but it's so widely overused and it's taken as a symbol of babies. I resent that part. In many places in the US, probably even most places, at least some bottlefeeding is considered NORMAL and EXPECTED. If a woman chooses NOT to use a bottle, ppl act as if SHE'S strange. Often, folks get a pg woman at a baby shower BOTTLES and PACIFIERS as if it's a given...and for many mainstream women it is a given. That drives me nuts and that's what informs my reaction to the bottle. If it weren't a cultural assumption that bottlefeeding is normal and breastfeeding, especially exclusive and ecological breastfeeding, were unusual to say the least, the whole bottle thing wouldn't bother me so much. I'd like to see things the other way around with bf'ing ecologically being the norm and bottlefeeding being rarer (though w/o the stigma that so many bf'ers get).

That being said, both of my kids were ecologically bf'd. No bottles and no pacis...though I did try to offer each one a bottle and a paci "just in case" (of what I'm not sure...there's lots of ways to get breastmilk or even formula in w/o a bottle). Still, both of them got very fascinated w/ bottles a year or so ago. They found the bottles I bought for pumping breastmilk (which I never ended up doing beyond once or twice LOL). They still play w/ them now and then...filling them w/ milk or water and playing "baby." I don't make a big deal of it...though DD cracks me up by always saying that it's mommy-milk in the bottle when they play "baby." When DS was still nursing, he'd play w/ the bottle for fun but strongly objected to using as a substitute for nursing.

Anyway, I probably wouldn't say anything or wouldn't make a big deal if I did say something. Personally, I wouldn't make a "baby pack" including a bottle and when I buy dolls, I do try to find dolls that don't come w/ a bottle (though that's tough). The kids do play w/ toy bottles and dolls, though it's good to see they also pretend to nurse the dolls (both DD and DS).

[Baha'iMama]

I think, if a doll comes with a bottle, it should also include a little pretend breast-pump, too. No ambiguity there!

[Baha'iMama]

Also, although sometimes feeding breastmilk from a bottle may be necessary, there is a difference between that and breastfeeding. There is more to breastfeeding than just getting the milk into the baby. When nursing at the breast, there is a whole physiological process going on, with a feedback loop between mother and child. If the child is getting sick or certain germs are present in its saliva, the breast will "sense" this and produce antibodies to protect the baby. The milk will change in response to the child's needs. Also there is the emotional/psychological aspect of feeling the softness and warmth and "aliveness" of the breast, which is not present in the bottle. And for the mother, there is the deep bonding that occurs due to the physiological/chemical/hormonal responses to the baby suckling at the breast, which are demonstrably different when the mother is watching the baby at the breast and can see its face as it nurses.

If one occasionally uses a bottle, it's not going to disrupt these things much. But exclusively using a bottle to feed breastmilk, while infinitely better than formula, still misses out on a big part of the whole breastfeeding process.

[1littlebit]

Originally Posted by Baha'iMama

I think, if a doll comes with a bottle, it should also include a little pretend breast-pump, too. No ambiguity there!

[Sanveann]

Originally Posted by Baha'iMama

If one occasionally uses a bottle, it's not going to disrupt these things much. But exclusively using a bottle to feed breastmilk, while infinitely better than formula, still misses out on a big part of the whole breastfeeding process.

Believe me, any mother who's EPing is MORE than aware of this. I EPed for DS1, and it broke my heart not to be able to feed him the "normal" way.

I imagine there are very, very few -- if any -- women who by choice exclusively bottle-feed their babies breastmilk.

[readytobedone]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

IMO the biggest indicator of how anti breast feeding our culture is has nothing to do with the bottle and everything to do with the nearly universal assumption that it contains formula.

most people (even us very pro bfing types) assume that every bottle is filled with formula and that the babies who get bottles are not being bf. think about it... if you see a woman at the mall giving a baby a bottle do immediately assume that there may be bm in the bottle, baby gets bottles and from the bf, if it is formula mama and baby tried their best to bf and are glad formula was available or do you assume that they chose not to breast feed due to all of the zillion reasons we talk about on this board?

while i agree that bottles are obnoxiously prevalent and i get annoyed every time i see someone on a tv show bottle feeding a baby i think that what will truly be indicative in a change of attitude in favor of bfing is when people don't look at a bottle and think formula.

i agree with this sentiment and think this is very well-put.

i don't think it's a reasonable goal, or one i would support, to--as some people put the matter--make it so that women don't NEED bottles in our society. most women simply will need them, or at least WANT them, because, while not totally necessary, they make life MUCH easier if you ever intend to be separated from your baby.

[leaveit2beeker]

Maybe I'll get flamed for this, but that's ok...

Would you prefer to see a 3 year old in public lifting her shirt pretending to nurse her baby or give her baby doll a bottle? I think at that tender age I'd agree to a baby doll bottle rather than draw even more disapproving glances for my toddler lifting up her shirt. I, as an adult, can thwart glances and comments for my business being exposed. I don't need a child, a baby in essence, being harrassed for just doing what she sees at home, all in the name of lactivism.

I will admit that I am hyper-aware of the bottlefeeding going on around me but have had several friends pump and bottlefeed. I have learned to configure my thought process as though all mother could 'possibly' be pumping and bottlefeeding rather than jump the gun.

[triscuitsmom]

Originally Posted by leaveit2beeker

Maybe I'll get flamed for this, but that's ok...

Would you prefer to see a 3 year old in public lifting her shirt pretending to nurse her baby or give her baby doll a bottle? I think at that tender age I'd agree to a baby doll bottle rather than draw even more disapproving glances for my toddler lifting up her shirt. I, as an adult, can thwart glances and comments for my business being exposed. I don't need a child, a baby in essence, being harrassed for just doing what she sees at home, all in the name of lactivism.

I will admit that I am hyper-aware of the bottlefeeding going on around me but have had several friends pump and bottlefeed. I have learned to configure my thought process as though all mother could 'possibly' be pumping and bottlefeeding rather than jump the gun.

Lifting her shirt to feed her baby the way she sees it done at home hands down. It's what my almost 3 year old son does, and it's what I've seen other kids of a similar age do in public before and I've only ever thought awwwww, and to be honest I've never seen or heard any negative comments to those kids either (nor for bottle feeding dolls either... it's all just kids being kids).

[leaveit2beeker]

I can only draw on my own experiences, and I have yet to go NIP without some nitwit letting me know that THEY know what's going on...I just hate for a child to subjected to that kind of quasi-humiliation. I may have to move to a more approving neighborhood...*sigh*

[spughy]

Originally Posted by leaveit2beeker

I can only draw on my own experiences, and I have yet to go NIP without some nitwit letting me know that THEY know what's going on...I just hate for a child to subjected to that kind of quasi-humiliation. I may have to move to a more approving neighborhood...*sigh*

You should definitely move

Here, 3-year-olds run around *without* shirts on quite happily.

Also, most 3-year-olds I know don't bother to lift shirts as they "nurse". They're not that into realism, or else it's too much hassle.

Anyway - OP here - I did mention the bottle to the playgroup director and she was a bit "oh! how did THAT get in there??" I gather the kits had been put together by volunteers. She was going to talk to her co-director and probably remove it, as it wasn't actually on the inventory list that came with the bag. I did forward the suggestion from a pp on this thread though - that obviously the doll was a *foster* doll and it's not legal to breastfeed foster babies. She thought that was fairly amusing, but it was unlikely to be a viable explanation for a 3-year-old.

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by spughy

She thought that was fairly amusing, but it was unlikely to be a viable explanation for a 3-year-old.

True, true, but now I'm loving the idea of letting a 6-year-old decide if she/he gave birth to the baby or if they need to work to lactate for their adopted baby, or if the doll's being babysat/fostered. All sorts of fun options for kids old enough to understand.

[meganmarie]

Wow, Leaveit2Beeker, lucky we don't live in your neighborhood! My preschoolers not only NIP their baby dolls, they also GIVE BIRTH in public. Baby goes inside their shirt and grows "bigger every day" until they "push" it out. Then the first thing baby wants is to "have nursies". Sometimes lifting the shirt, sometimes not,

On topic - I would focus much more on being VERY HAPPY that the book in the bag promotes breastfeeding, and ignore the bottle. The former issue (kids' books that always show newborns with bottles) is MUCH more of a pet peeve for me. Showing nursing in books is so directly an educational opportunity to support how things should be ,and its so clearly not done because of stupid prudish reservations about whether its appropriate to show THAT (gasp!) in a children's book. I am very glad someone in your playgroup went to the trouble to find one of the 3 children's books available in the entire country that shows some actual boob!