"there is no try" - Page 9

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Why is it so bad to look at the try/fail? See this I don't get, you are saying tha failure is not a bad thing, but then you refuse to refer to not succeeding what you set out to do as failure.

because it's such a loaded word. it can contain so much more negativity than other words i could use to describe the same thing. imagine a life full of those unexpected results. you could spend your life with an internal dialogue that says

i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new

or you could just have

i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new


i choose to have the latter internal dialogue running through my head.

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Because they are two different learning experiences. When I fail, I learn by what I did wrong. When I succeed I learn by what I did right.

or, you learned by what you did. and you learned by what you did. why must you harp on the "wrong" vs "right" part? the outcome is the same.

I fail and think "Ok, I won't do it that way again."
I succeed and think "Ok, that works. There's one way to do it."

sure, and that makes complete sense. i, on the other hand, choose to do and think "ok, that was the result that time. if i want that result again, i know what to do. if i don't, i know what to not do."

[MusicianDad]

I don't feel there are inherent limits to failure.

Failure lets me see the other results of what I do. In the lab, it means that failing to achieve one result can provide information for the future and what you did wrong to do one thing could be right for another.

I see no reason to define getting a result other then what is aimed for anything other then what it is. Failure is a word. It has only the limitations you place on it, and only the problems you give it.

I have changed how I interpret failure, even if I haven't changed the definition.

Failure was "can't do it, won't try again, no use because I'm not good enough."
Failure is "Ok, that was... interesting... Hmmm, well this is where things started to go wrong, so obviously doing this wasn't a good idea, next time I'll try doing something else there."

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by IncaMama

or, you learned by what you did. and you learned by what you did. why must you harp on the "wrong" vs "right" part? the outcome is the same.



sure, and that makes complete sense. i, on the other hand, choose to do and think "ok, that was the result that time. if i want that result again, i know what to do. if i don't, i know what to not do."

Yeah but why would I want to generalize the result with the collection of actions?

The dog vomit omelette didn't turn out great, but I didn't discredit everything I did to make it, only the things I did that made it turn out the way it did.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by IncaMama

because it's such a loaded word. it can contain so much more negativity than other words i could use to describe the same thing. imagine a life full of those unexpected results. you could spend your life with an internal dialogue that says

i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new

or you could just have

i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new


i choose to have the latter internal dialogue running through my head.

I can assure you my internal dialogue is not that mundane.

Nothing wrong with acknowledging I failed. It makes me human.

[Just My Opinion]

Originally Posted by IncaMama

because it's such a loaded word. it can contain so much more negativity than other words i could use to describe the same thing. imagine a life full of those unexpected results. you could spend your life with an internal dialogue that says

i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new
i failed but i learned something new

or you could just have

i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new
i learned something new


i choose to have the latter internal dialogue running through my head.

Love it, I totally agree.


I remember being in the thick of labor during my home birth, losing control a tad, and screaming, "I CAN'T DO THIS!!!!" and my midwife saying to me with the most secure, strong voice.... "You are doing it. You ARE DOING it."

That was a moment that sort of helped shape my view on try. I can imagine how differently my birth may have gone if she would have said "c'mon, just try!" ... or...."keep trying".

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Pulled out the definition because it is the definition I put to failure, since IncaMama felt the need to define her version of failure for me, I simply returned the favour.

we define failure the same way, i just choose not to incorporate it into my daily thought processes like others do.

i'm not some automaton, though - let's be clear. there are times that i have an "i failed" thought run through my head. because i grew up in the same world you did. i was socialized in the same way. i was encouraged to try and fail. but over time, i have discovered that the "try and fail" mentality is energy draining to me. i find it limiting. so i choose not to operate that way. and if i fall back to those long-ingrained habits, i choose to reframe my thinking to a more positive mindset.

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Failure is a word. It has only the limitations you place on it, and only the problems you give it.

that would be true if we weren't social creatures living in a world acted upon by others. we co-construct values.

I have changed how I interpret failure, even if I haven't changed the definition.

Failure was "can't do it, won't try again, no use because I'm not good enough."
Failure is "Ok, that was... interesting... Hmmm, well this is where things started to go wrong, so obviously doing this wasn't a good idea, next time I'll try doing something else there."

and i have done the same. i have just taken it one step further.

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

I can assure you my internal dialogue is not that mundane.

i should hope not. i also hope you understand the general point i was trying to make.

Nothing wrong with acknowledging I failed. It makes me human.

i think that what makes you human is infinitely more complex than that, and i choose to open up my philosophy to something beyond trying and failing. i acknowledge that i get unexpected or undesired results all the time. i just don't see why it's so important to come at it from a try/fail perspective.

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by Just My Opinion

I remember being in the thick of labor during my home birth, losing control a tad, and screaming, "I CAN'T DO THIS!!!!" and my midwife saying to me with the most secure, strong voice.... "You are doing it. You ARE DOING it."

LOL my midwife said the same thing to me. i then proceeded to curse at her in three languages and tell her to find some other way to get the kid out of my body. :

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by IncaMama

we define failure the same way, i just choose not to incorporate it into my daily thought processes like others do.

i'm not some automaton, though - let's be clear. there are times that i have an "i failed" thought run through my head. because i grew up in the same world you did. i was socialized in the same way. i was encouraged to try and fail. but over time, i have discovered that the "try and fail" mentality is energy draining to me. i find it limiting. so i choose not to operate that way. and if i fall back to those long-ingrained habits, i choose to reframe my thinking to a more positive mindset.

Well I find that not acknowledging my failures doesn't let me as readily learn from them. I refuse to acknowledge it as what it is, then I refuse to acknowledge it and forget anything and everything that goes along with it.

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

Well I find that not acknowledging my failures doesn't let me as readily learn from them. I refuse to acknowledge it as what it is, then I refuse to acknowledge it and forget anything and everything that goes along with it.

hm. i always found that "failure" shuts my brain down much quicker. different strokes...

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by Just My Opinion

I remember being in the thick of labor during my home birth, losing control a tad, and screaming, "I CAN'T DO THIS!!!!" and my midwife saying to me with the most secure, strong voice.... "You are doing it. You ARE DOING it."

That was a moment that sort of helped shape my view on try. I can imagine how differently my birth may have gone if she would have said "c'mon, just try!" ... or...."keep trying".

See you keep mentioning all or nothing situations. I mean, one way or another that baby is coming out so there are very few way to fail at childbirth and it's not something you can just "try".

I was opening a can with the can opener today. I worked at it for a while, but we have a crap can opener. I tried, I failed, there were still three points of the lid stuck to the can. I passed the job on to DH because I was stuck. He pulls out a knife and jimmies two of the connected points to finish opening the can.

I tried. I failed.
DH tried. Did do it.

Oh yeah, and I learned too because I stuck around to watch.

[mommysarah5]

my midwife said the same thing to me. because I WAS doing it.

MusicianDad everything you have said is well put.

I have no problem with philosophy, I'm just not in the business of trying to redefine the English language. Many times people give words new meaning because they don't know the word for the meaning they intend.

I understand though if some people can;t handle failure so they avoid the term. if thats what you need to do to learn from an experience and move forward fine. I am strong enough to handle failing though. It's never limited me. In fact, I find is strengthens me to understand its possible I can fail. I knew that some women fail in pushing the baby out, so when it was time to push I tried harder then I would have if I thought "oh i'll just do it" I realized that its HARD and it doesnt JUST HAPPEN. you don't just squat down and a baby pops out and hey look I did it. Many women think pushing isn't hard and wait until they have been pushing for 2 hours before they REALLY push. I knew getting the pushing over with quickly was something that I *could* potentially fail at, and for that reason I have never pushed more then 10 minutes with any of my children. Or I just keep getting lucky, but hey you have your philosophies and I have mine. I just am able to have philosophies without changing the definition of words.

[mommysarah5]

Originally Posted by IncaMama

we define failure the same way, i just choose not to incorporate it into my daily thought processes like others do.

i'm not some automaton, though - let's be clear. there are times that i have an "i failed" thought run through my head. because i grew up in the same world you did. i was socialized in the same way. i was encouraged to try and fail. but over time, i have discovered that the "try and fail" mentality is energy draining to me. i find it limiting. so i choose not to operate that way. and if i fall back to those long-ingrained habits, i choose to reframe my thinking to a more positive mindset.

wow, you did not grow up in the same society that i did then. i was not raised to "try and fail" I was raised to "try your best to succeed" why would someone TRY to fail? yeah, that would be mentally draining. now I see why you think the way you do!

trying IS a positive mindset for me. what you describe if I took that on would be more negative, so just have to keep in mind that trying isn't negative to everyone.

[mommysarah5]

my mind is open to INCLUDE do, dont do, try, fail, and succeed. to me I'd have to shut my mind to not be willing to accept some of those possibilities. I understand you shut it because you can cope better without those words. thats good you know how to deal with failure in your own way, whatever way that may be, whatever new word you give it.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

See you keep mentioning all or nothing situations. I mean, one way or another that baby is coming out so there are very few way to fail at childbirth and it's not something you can just "try".

It's even possible to give birth naturally while unconscious.

Giving birth is more a matter of being than either trying or doing, imho.

[sewchris2642]

Originally Posted by mommysarah5

Thats fine, I just don't see the harm in trying to figure out WHY the child is trying to cop out, and finding a way to support them. I'm just overflowing with love and take every chance to let it flow though :

I don't have to ask the child why he "can't" find the shoes 2 feet in front of him. I already know why and see no reason why I should give him an opportunity to lie about it. Finding his shoes that are 2 feet in front of him is part of raising children who are responsible for their own possessions and actions.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by sewchris2642

I don't have to ask the child why he "can't" find the shoes 2 feet in front of him. I already know why and see no reason why I should give him an opportunity to lie about it. Finding his shoes that are 2 feet in front of him is part of raising children who are responsible for their own possessions and actions.

My parents felt the same way, until they found out I was legally blind and realized that I in fact, was not lying if I said I couldn't find something that was obvious to them.

mommysarah is simply stating that it's a good idea to try and figure out why a child is unwilling (or unable) to do something.

[mommysarah5]

I think musiciandad and myself gave good example why it might be good to find out. it's not about lying. my children don't need a chance to lie because the truth would be accepted, so they'd just tell me the real reason why.

4evermom - the unconcious question is a good one. Would the mother still be having contractions? If so wouldn't the contractions just push the baby out? not my area of expertise.