"there is no try" - Page 12

[mommysarah5]

Originally Posted by limabean

Excellent point. Even in the "put your shoes on" example that keeps being brought up in this thread, if the kid said, "I am" but clearly wasn't, it'd be just as exasperating as if he said, "I'll try" even though the shoes were right in front of him and he'd done it hundreds of times before.

yep

[Kidzaplenty]

: This sounds like an interesting place to sit and watch.

[mommysarah5]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

You really need to stop assuming that just because someone is willing to try they have need some sort of cusion. Trying is not a cop out, it is the act of performing action with the expectation that you will reach the "did it" point.

exactly. not doing is the cop out. of course if someone says they will try with the INTENT to not do it then is a cop out. but if they are trying by the definition of the word trying then its not a cop out.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by journeymom

1) I think it's perfectly fine to say this to your preschooler if you know your preschooler, you know that this will inspire not squash or frustrate her. Some exceptionally talented people are really competitive and love a challenge, and that kind of statement is just right up their ally. My understanding is that some Olympic athletes are like this, from the time they are very little. And where do they get this talent and competitiveness? Their parents. So it's appropriate in that context.

2) However, I think the virtue that a lot of successful people have is that they don't give up when, inevitably, they don't achieve their goal the first time. When they don't learn a song the first time they sit down at the piano it doesn't occur to them that it's a 'failure'. They simply haven't learned it yet.

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Edited to say, oh good heavens there are 11 pages!

I would consider it a failure, it doesn't mean I will give up. I will take it to mean that next time I need to read the notes and maybe play at a slower tempo so I can learn the song properly before playing properly.

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty

: This sounds like an interesting place to sit and watch.

Geez, you aren't doing or trying. You're just copping out!

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by mommysarah5

I can see it that an attempt is a failure, without feeling that acheivement is hopeless or that nothing has been achieved. I can see the success in failure. For me though, it helps to say "I wanted to accomplish this, this is what I did, I didn't end up where I was aiming for." from there I can say "turned out here is even better, or, okay let's try that again - next time I'll do it differently" To accept I have fail in an single attempt is not the same as thinking I am a failure. I don't even use the term failure and not sure how it has anything to do with trying. I mean it is what it is if you fail at an attempt, and no I dont think the only thing that matters is trying. It's just this is what I do

try and succeed
or try and fail and try again until I succeed

I don't see myself saying to my child "you failed" but I do see myself saying "you can try again. you learned something from this."

I suppose I see things as set backs. Of course unless its a one time thing that you can't try again, in which case I am okay with accepting that I missed the mark, bu I got as close to the mark as I could. It's still no the mark, its still upsetting, saying I tried my best doesn't change that, but I'm still happier to be in a the place you get when you try your hardest then the place you get when you dont try at all.

:

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by seriosa

The Greek philospher Epitectus said "Of all existing things some are in our power, and others are not in our power. In our power are thought, impulse, will to get and will to avoid, and, in a word, everything which is our own doing. Things not in our power include the body, property, reputation, office, and, in a word, everything which is not our own doing. Things in our power are by nature free, unhindered, untrammeled; things not in our power are weak, servile, subject to hindrance, dependent on others."

The things that in our power, we do. The things that are not in our power, we try.

(seeing that we philosophise here...)

I prefer not to assign something as in my power or not in my power until I know for sure whether I can do them or not. In order for that I need to try multipul times. It may turn out that every single time I try something in my life I will fail. I don't know yet which things those will be, I only know which ones they won't be because I have at some point succeeded.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by mommysarah5

I tried for a natural birth, and I had one.
My friend tried for a natural birth, she had one.
My aunt tried for a natural birth, she had one.
The women who works at the front desk of the school tried for a natural birth, she had one.
One of my children's classmates parents tried for a natural birth 3 times. She had it the first 2 time. the second time she had full placenta previa.

You are more likely to fail at a natural birth if you don't try then if you do. Yes some people fail at them, its not BECAUSE they tried though.

Baby momma tried for a natural birth and she had one. She always made it clear that she would "try" but gave no promises that she wouldn't need medical intervention.

[Kidzaplenty]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

Geez, you aren't doing or trying. You're just copping out!

Yep, that's me. Not trying or doing. But it is fun watching everyone trying and doing.

[Snuzzmom]

Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty

Yep, that's me. Not trying or doing. But it is fun watching everyone trying and doing.

BUT! You can't fail this way!

[4evermom]

Originally Posted by Snuzzmom

BUT! You can't fail this way!

So she's succeeding? And is her self esteem good because she isn't trying or bad because she isn't doing?

[sewchris2642]

To Mommysarah5 (post #193): No that's not what I'm saying. A process child is the one who builds something with Legos, then immediately takes it apart to build something else. And frequently doesn't show off his original creation to anyone. It is the process of building that is important, not the end result. The result just means that the process worked out as envisioned. And if it doesn't, it's no big deal.

I sew not because I want the end result of the garment but because of the process of sewing. I can get depressed when the end is reached. I hate the interval between one finished project and the beginning of the next.

To take your cooking example, Joy loves to cook. But it's still the process of cooking that is important to her. She had made stuff that she doesn't like or can't eat but makes it anyway simply because she wanted to cook. She baked carrot cake from scratch (including hand shredding the carrots) simply because she wanted to and had never done it. While the carrot cake was for Adam's birthday, he would have been happy with a box or even store bought. It was the process of baking the cake from scratch that was important, not the cake itself.

In parenting, the goal is reached 18-20 some years after the birth of the child. The finding the shoes 2 feet in front of the child is part of the process, not a goal.

[Snuzzmom]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

So she's succeeding? And is her self esteem good because she isn't trying or bad because she isn't doing?

Uh... yes!

[Kidzaplenty]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

So she's succeeding? And is her self esteem good because she isn't trying or bad because she isn't doing?

Of course I am succeeding! And enjoying the process of not doing or trying along the way.

:

[mommysarah5]

Originally Posted by sewchris2642

To Mommysarah5 (post #193): No that's not what I'm saying. A process child is the one who builds something with Legos, then immediately takes it apart to build something else. And frequently doesn't show off his original creation to anyone. It is the process of building that is important, not the end result. The result just means that the process worked out as envisioned. And if it doesn't, it's no big deal.

I sew not because I want the end result of the garment but because of the process of sewing. I can get depressed when the end is reached. I hate the interval between one finished project and the beginning of the next.

To take your cooking example, Joy loves to cook. But it's still the process of cooking that is important to her. She had made stuff that she doesn't like or can't eat but makes it anyway simply because she wanted to cook. She baked carrot cake from scratch (including hand shredding the carrots) simply because she wanted to and had never done it. While the carrot cake was for Adam's birthday, he would have been happy with a box or even store bought. It was the process of baking the cake from scratch that was important, not the cake itself.

In parenting, the goal is reached 18-20 some years after the birth of the child. The finding the shoes 2 feet in front of the child is part of the process, not a goal.

Yes, that is a process also. I also have hobbies or activities I like to do just because I like to do them. Sometimes I do have an end result in mind. Like if im constipated I DO want to make sure I get all that stuff out so I'm not uncomfortable anymore. The end result matters. If I'm listening to music, its not about the end result. its just something I enjoy doing. I don't enjoy poopin though - thats entirely bout the end result - for me anyway. And when I'm constipated I DO try to get it out, and it does matter if it comes out or not. thankfully I only experience constipation when pregnant.

I do see goals along the way in life. Goals that are a part of a bigger process. For some people, the "goal" is stolen from them when their child dies. So I don;t try to look at it as reaching a certain birthday. I look at all the things we do and accomplish along the way and I enjoy all the moments. I dont turn finding shoes into an issue, but I will support them to see if there is an issue preventing them from finding the shoes. We eliminate issues, not make them.

[mommysarah5]

and sometimes I cook because I enjoy cooking, and sometimes I cook because I am hungry. So sometimes the end results matter. If the food is burnt so bad I can't bite into it, and im starving, then i have to restart the process because it was a process with an intended end result (to eat)

if the proces if just about baking for enjoyment, then the end result doesn't matter.

This is me. I dont liek in a black or white world. My world is a rainbow. Sometimes I try, sometimes I dont try, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't do. Sometimes its all about the process, sometimes its about the end result, sometimes the result is part of another process, sometimes the process is the result. I'm not limiting myself to "do" or "don't do" I'm just going to live life with everything included from doing to not doing to trying to results and processes to success and failure to learning experiences. I experience joy and happiness and I can handle dissapointment and sorrow. I do not let words like try limit me, not do I find the word try limiting. It's not one way or the other for me. Some poeple live very happy lives having it one way or the other though and thats okay. I think that the do or don't do is good - I include that within my options. I just also add the options of one of the things I can do is to try, and that sometimes I have an end result in mind and sometimes I don't.

the bottom line that I am seeing here is that some people feel limited by trying, so they don't use it. And some people would feel limited if they excluded trying from their lives. In the end we are all trying using the approach that puts the least amount of limits on us. We are getting to the same place, we're just taking different paths to get there. I would hope that a person who feels that trying is a cop out would not try. At the same time, for those who do more in life because they do try, I hope they never stop trying (and doing, and accomplishing, and learning, and everything else that both the trier-doers and the just-doers do)