"there is no try" - Page 5

[mommysarah5]

Originally Posted by funkymamajoy

Oh, we've gotten way beyond anything I would explain to my children now. And beyond the intention of the original movie quote.

what was said in the OP wasn't the original movie quote either.

[seriosa]

Originally Posted by mommysarah5

Thats fine, I just don't see the harm in trying to figure out WHY the child is trying to cop out, and finding a way to support them. I'm just overflowing with love and take every chance to let it flow though :

Honestly I think I would give up on parenting if I had to psychoanalyse (sp?) every single word my child says - or every one of my own. "DS stop splashing water out of the bath-tub." "I'll try" "Don't try, just stop". He's playing, having fun, but he can can find another way to do it without giving me a mess to mop up afterwards. "DS, button up your shirt, daddy is waiting in the car" "I'll try" "you've been buttoning that shirt for a month now, don't try, do it".

I don't know, maybe I am harsh and unfeeling, but I don't think I do my son a service in the long run when every transient whim of his becomes reason to stop the world rotating and sit down and talk him through it. He'll have to get used sooner or later to the fact that most of the world does not revolve around him, and that yes, he does have to use a little willpower and self discipline if he doesn't want to be steamrollered over once he gets out there. And I show my love by helping and encouraging him to try when things are difficult, but not pandering to a caprice when I see one. I am not totally clueless as to who my son is - most times I can tell the difference (yes I have made a couple of clamorous mistakes in this regard too, but he has been able to show me, and I have understood and apologised. He knows he is listened to, knows his parents are not perfect, and I think this works good for his self esteem too. He can be right when his parents are wrong and see that acknowledged).

[paxye]

Originally Posted by funkymamajoy

:, except its not on our toilet.

We often say that we'll "try" when we really mean is "I can't" or "I'm going to quit when its gets hard." I didn't tell myself that I was going to try to breastfeed or VBAC, I told myself that I was going to do it. It doesn't mean that failure isn't an option, just don't talk yourself out of something before giving an attempt everything you've got.

And if its beyond a preschooler's understanding, then it will just go over his head, no harm, no foul.

That is exactly the way I see it... when I gave BF classes I would tell the new moms that if they wanted to BF not to say to themselves or those around them that they would "try" but that they would do it... and most of those that took that attitude went on to have successful BF relationships (if something out of their control didn't come in the way)... but those that would "try" pretty much would leave the hospital already giving up or did so soon after...

The point I see is that "trying" to do something often ends up in a halfhearted attempt that is easy to give up on... but doing it and it not working on the way is just part of the learning experience, but you just get back and just plan to do it again...

Oh... and count my kids with the kids that know all the Star Wars movies by heart... and Lord of the Rings etc... (but they are terrified of Nanny Mcphee and 101 dalmatians for some reason)

[GuildJenn]

Originally Posted by seriosa

Honestly I think I would give up on parenting if I had to psychoanalyse (sp?) every single word my child says - or every one of my own. "DS stop splashing water out of the bath-tub." "I'll try" "Don't try, just stop". He's playing, having fun, but he can can find another way to do it without giving me a mess to mop up afterwards. "DS, button up your shirt, daddy is waiting in the car" "I'll try" "you've been buttoning that shirt for a month now, don't try, do it".

I don't know, maybe I am harsh and unfeeling, but I don't think I do my son a service in the long run when every transient whim of his becomes reason to stop the world rotating and sit down and talk him through it. He'll have to get used sooner or later to the fact that most of the world does not revolve around him, and that yes, he does have to use a little willpower and self discipline if he doesn't want to be steamrollered over once he gets out there. And I show my love by helping and encouraging him to try when things are difficult, but not pandering to a caprice when I see one. I am not totally clueless as to who my son is - most times I can tell the difference (yes I have made a couple of clamorous mistakes in this regard too, but he has been able to show me, and I have understood and apologised. He knows he is listened to, knows his parents are not perfect, and I think this works good for his self esteem too. He can be right when his parents are wrong and see that acknowledged).

I totally agree with this and I am still that this poor mum's misquoted Yoda thing is such a big deal. Not that I am not enjoying the conversation but MAN if we can't tell our kids silly things at the park from time to time... trouble!

[mommysarah5]

Originally Posted by seriosa

Honestly I think I would give up on parenting if I had to psychoanalyse (sp?) every single word my child says - or every one of my own. "DS stop splashing water out of the bath-tub." "I'll try" "Don't try, just stop". He's playing, having fun, but he can can find another way to do it without giving me a mess to mop up afterwards. "DS, button up your shirt, daddy is waiting in the car" "I'll try" "you've been buttoning that shirt for a month now, don't try, do it".

I don't know, maybe I am harsh and unfeeling, but I don't think I do my son a service in the long run when every transient whim of his becomes reason to stop the world rotating and sit down and talk him through it. He'll have to get used sooner or later to the fact that most of the world does not revolve around him, and that yes, he does have to use a little willpower and self discipline if he doesn't want to be steamrollered over once he gets out there. And I show my love by helping and encouraging him to try when things are difficult, but not pandering to a caprice when I see one. I am not totally clueless as to who my son is - most times I can tell the difference (yes I have made a couple of clamorous mistakes in this regard too, but he has been able to show me, and I have understood and apologised. He knows he is listened to, knows his parents are not perfect, and I think this works good for his self esteem too. He can be right when his parents are wrong and see that acknowledged).

you aren't harsh and unfeeling! you see things the way you do, nothing wrong with that. I wouldn't want to psychoanalyze either, so I don't. I just talk to them. I ask. Not psychoanalysis necessary. That would drive me batty too! I just feel more at peace when I approach things peacefully. To say "just stop already" would take me out of my peaceful place. Looking at them as the child I carried for months and gave birth too, and saying to them "The shoe is right there." instead of "just do it" just comes more naturally. If they are splashing water saying "just stop already" wouldn't come as naturally as saying "You will try to stop? Why might you not be able to?" (though splashing doesn't really bother me, im the one who taught them how to do it ) or I might say, "I'm sure you can stop if you try, but if you can't I'll help you." (vote of confidence, offer to help) but no, you certainly are not harsh and unfeeling, nor do I psychoanalyze my children. We are just different people, thats all, and thats not a bad thing : One thing we have in common is we are both teaching self discipline, both teaching our children that they have the willpower to do things, both teaching our children that the world doesn't revolve around them, and both teaching our children that the world isn't going to stop rotating for them,. We just do it differently I'd say we have more in common then not!

[mommysarah5]

Originally Posted by GuildJenn

MAN if we can't tell our kids silly things at the park from time to time... trouble!

I agree with that! it would be trouble if we couldn't be silly with our kids! :

[octobermom]

That would drive me batty too! I just feel more at peace when I approach things peacefully. To say "just stop already" would take me out of my peaceful place. Looking at them as the child I carried for months and gave birth too, and saying to them "The shoe is right there." instead of "just do it" just comes more naturally. If they are splashing water saying "just stop already" wouldn't come as naturally as saying "You will try to stop?

Its posts like this that have me loving these kinda boards. I can totally see and respect and support these statements . I can also say with upmost confidence and BTDT experience that it would drive everyone here batty to here.. " you will try to stop?" nope here it's "stop already" and those words are the nice respectful ones. WHy might you not be able to? are the mean mommy words that confuse the 6 year old living here. Maybe because I have such a litelist. don't know but I've been shocked on how shes needs very exact stop now (not yelling or threats but exact frank words) or shes gets very upset and say I'm confusing her and I dont love and trust her.
Yet does this mean I think OMG why would you say can you try? for things they just can or need to do. Nope like you said diffrent approaches....

Deanna

[octobermom]

I agree with that! it would be trouble if we couldn't be silly with our kids!

A few months ago my DH had some coworkers over including a lady whom I'd not met before.. Anyways I'd asked my DD to pick up her room earlier that day and shes was kinda being lazy about it.. At one time she came and asked if she could have a cookie. I told her yes but that she then needed to go pick up her room and I was comming to check it in 30 mintues and if she hadn't I've have to turn her upside down and shake the cookies out of her tummy. I was sooo obviously joking DD was sooo obviously not threatened by my comment... It was just a totally silly icebreaking comment.. But the look on the ladies face was pure SHOCK. About 20 mintues latter DD invited me over to see her newly "cleaned" room and asked me if her cookie could stay in her tummy. I said ohh well I guess this time.... Again this weird shocked looked .
Latter I found out she started spreading rumors on how cruel I was with my DD..somehow warpped the silly cookie thing into I was denying her food when she refused to pick up... :

Deanna

[mommysarah5]

Originally Posted by octobermom

I was comming to check it in 30 mintues and if she hadn't I've have to turn her upside down and shake the cookies out of her tummy.

cant believe anyone would be shocked by that, its hilarious! my kids would be in fits of giggles if I not only said that, but pretended to try to do that

[mommysarah5]

Originally Posted by octobermom

Its posts like this that have me loving these kinda boards. I can totally see and respect and support these statements . I can also say with upmost confidence and BTDT experience that it would drive everyone here batty to here.. " you will try to stop?" nope here it's "stop already" and those words are the nice respectful ones. WHy might you not be able to? are the mean mommy words that confuse the 6 year old living here. Maybe because I have such a litelist. don't know but I've been shocked on how shes needs very exact stop now (not yelling or threats but exact frank words) or shes gets very upset and say I'm confusing her and I dont love and trust her.
Yet does this mean I think OMG why would you say can you try? for things they just can or need to do. Nope like you said diffrent approaches....

Deanna

just to clarify, I will say "stop xyz" but what I meant when I said was "you wil try? whats stopping you?" is that if I said, "stop that please" and they said "okay I'll try and kept doing it, then I would say "whats stopping you." or more likely "if you can't stop on your own, I will help." i just realized my post probably read differently. It's good to hear we can agree that things just work differently with different kids, sometimes even with i the same family. I have to do what works for me though, and I feel at my best when I say in a peaceful place (doesnt everyone?) and thats just the way I stay in my peaceful place, and then there are other ways other people stay in theirs

[Just My Opinion]

Originally Posted by mommysarah5

this is just my opinion - but just my opinion's opinion is WAY too complicated for me to understand. I'm no dummy, and I'm a full grown adult. My head would have been spinning every which way if my parents tried to push a philosophy like that on me. Maybes I shouldn't complain so much then huh? At least I understood what the heck my mom was talking about even if it was upsetting at times.


I understand:
pick up that stuffed animal
okay I'll try

I would want to know why my child feels that is something they need to try to do. why do they feel they couldn't just do it?

compared to
pick up that 100 lbs weight
okay I'll try

where I can understand why the child wouldnt be able to do it.

just because its something that a child can physically do, doesn't mean they don't need to try to do it. People have non-physical things that get in their way all the time.

I also don't understand comparing a woman who is choosing natural birth to a parent who is telling the child what to do. You could compare that if maybe someone else was choosing for the parent to have a natural birth when they didn't want to, and the mother agreeing to try.

just my opinion, but I wouldn't get into something that deep with a small child. if they say they are trying, they are trying. trying is an action, therefore trying is something you do, so when you say "dont try, do it or dont do it" thats really harsh, imo, since its unnecessary. Again, whats the harm in asking the child what they perceive to be standing in their way. Why do they say its something they need to try to do? what is obvious to one person is not always to the next. I don't expect my newborn to understand calculus anymore then I expect my child to see the world with my same deep philosophies. If your child understands that than thats awesome! You have the next world's next Aristotle on your hands :

I'll stick to showing my child I trust what they say, even if to me I can't understand why they say it all the time

...and I'll stick to showing my child that she can be empowered in her successes as well as in her failures and that I will keep on loving her all the same. I don't think coddling her through every single action and giving a huge "bravo" applause "we are all winners" to every single attempt she makes in every single situation is beneficial.

Mommysarah5, I find your tone to be bating and insulting -- despite your "friendly" winks. Perhaps your child wouldn't understand the concepts my child does because you don't believe they can?
Our children, after all, are only capable (when they are little) of what we believe they are cable of of. When you put a cap on that, it doesn't surprise me that you would hold the belief you do and that it translates to your children.

My daughter knows she is loved, and she knows that I see her as the intelligent, capable, thinking, loving, loved human being that she is. The last thing I want to do is dumb her down.

I look at parenting (and other things) on an energetic, spiritual level. I believe we are spiritual beings having human experiences, not the other way around -- so "trying" has a distinctly different energy than doing or not doing does to me. "Trying" to me does not imply ownership or acceptance of action or inaction, success, or failure.

Trying is not action -- if there is action taking place, it is doing. Now you can still do and fail, but you still did....then didn't.

[Just My Opinion]

...and who ever said that anyone said to their kid "just do it" in a cold, unfeeling way? I've never said that to my daughter, yet my opinion on 'trying' remains the same.

[mommysarah5]

as I said different things work for different children. I know my children are intelligent too, I dont think I dumb them down by talking to them like they are under the age of 30 though

look how much we have in common:
you dont coddle - neither do I
you dont give a huge bravo or we are all winners at every single thing your child does - neither do I
your child knows she is loved - so do mine, they've told me so
your child knows that I see her as the intelligent, capable, thinking, loving, loved human being that she is. - i think my children know this but they haven't told me for themselves yet
The last thing I want to do is dumb her down. - agreed, I dont dumb down my children either.

Trying IS action.

I tried to pick up a 100 lb weight once. I walked over to it, grabbed it with both hands, and pulled with all my might. That is doing something. It's not doing what I was trying to do though, because I didnt pick it up. SO I didnt do it (it being picking up the weight) but I did DO something. I tried.

[mommysarah5]

Originally Posted by Just My Opinion

...and who ever said that anyone said to their kid "just do it" in a cold, unfeeling way? I've never said that to my daughter, yet my opinion on 'trying' remains the same.

i can't understand your hostility, sorry. no one here said that they said it that way. i have seen it used that way. ive experienced it being used that way. Well, more so being used in annoyance then in a cold unfeeling way. definitely feeling involved in the annoyance.

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by mommysarah5

that still begs the question though, why is the child saying trying in that situation? why aren't they choosing this freeing and empowering philosophy their parents have. How does it benefit them to blow them off with nothing more then a "don't try - just do it" if they are feeling unsure, why not help then get to that place where they can feel sure enough to just do it? To just leave them on their own with the demand to just do it, no matter how trivial the situation, to me just sounds really scary and lacking support. As I said, just because we see it one way doesn't mean our child will too. You can mean just do it with all the positive intentions in the world, but I think its important to be willing to explore why the child wants to just try, not just do.

ok, well - first of all, i haven't actually ever said "do or do not, there is no try" to my kid. and if i did, i assure you it wouldn't be in an attempt to blow them off. it would probably be said in a yoda voice followed by laughter from all of us.

second, i don't "demand" that my kids do anything.

and wrt your comments to JMO, i think i can safely say that she did not mean that she sits her child down and explains the finer points of her philosophy as she would, say, someone on MDC who has brought it up in a thread. this is just one piece of her family's broader philosophy that probably gets played out in much more subtle ways and learned slowly over the course of her life.

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

We learn from our failures. That is not defeatest. That is a learning point of view.

I don't expect to beable to do everything I try to do because 1) somethings are impossible to do and 2) it is by failing that I learn.

Maybe it's the scientist in me more then anything, but I feel that a very important part of learning about the world around us is by trying and either succeeding and failing. If I don't ever fail at something then I can't say that I have gone off the path and tried to do something in a unique way.

The first time I tried to make dinner with my own added flair, I failed miserably and not for lack of trying. I tried to make something good and in the end I learned something. I learned that the collection of ingredients I thought would make a good omelette, didn't in fact do that. They made a somewhat disgusting, rank smelling concoction that looked like dog vomit.

I tried.
I failed.
I learned.

Next time I tried and I succeeded.

and as a social scientist, i choose to reframe "failure". i agree, by your terms, i "fail" all the time. and learn from that "failure". but imo, that "failure" is not really a "failure" at all BECAUSE of the fact that you learn from every experience, even if it doesn't come off as planned. you succeeded at doing something ELSE. so, not a failure after all.

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

I find it very empowering to know I can try something new, fail and learn from it.

Failure is not a bad thing. I really don't like how everyone seems to think failing is somehow a horrible thing to do and accepting one might fail is lacking self esteem.

nope, i don't think it's lack of self-esteem. i think it's a defeatist perspective. those arent the same thing.

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by mommysarah5

Thats fine, I just don't see the harm in trying to figure out WHY the child is trying to cop out, and finding a way to support them. I'm just overflowing with love and take every chance to let it flow though :

well, yes of course...choosing not to overuse "try" doesn't imply not finding a way to support them.

[IncaMama]

Originally Posted by sewchris2642

When a reporter asked Edison if he felt like a failure and should give up, Edison said no, he just now knew over 9000 ways that a light bulb will not work. It took him some 10000 times to get it "right".

exactly! those 9000 times were not failures at all. and imo, he wasn't "trying to succeed" he was "doing" and "learning" and succeeding at both of those.

[Just My Opinion]

I guess I just misunderstand why this concept is assumed to be so "over children's heads" when they themselves are born with this very concept very much in tact. You think an infant or child gives a hoot if you "tried?"

You either change my diaper or you don't.
You either come to me when I cry or you do not.
You either sleep with me or sleep apart from me.
You either comfort me or you do not (even if a child doesn't seem comforted by your comforting, you are still in the action of comforting them, even if they aren't responding the way you'd wish.)
You either pay attention to me, or you do not.
Either you are there or you aren't (for a school function or play or whatever).

Children, by their very make-up, live in worlds of "do or do not". How does this concept go "over their heads?" Obviously, certain things are out of our control to a point -- if your car breaks down on the way to the play and you miss it...they can understand the concept as they grow that you had every intention of going and were in the process of doing
when circumstances beyond your control prevented you from doing.

I don't just coldly respond to my daughter, "just do it." If she wants to do something, I tell her to go for it. When she asks for my guidance, which is often, tell her whether I believe she is or is not capable of it (where she is currently, developmentally, psychically) -- like, no honey, if you want to flap your arms and pretend you can get to the moon that way, that is awesome -- but you can't actually get to the moon that way, babe.

I just don't understand why this is a concept that is meant to be so "out there" to kids?

Anything can be used punitively or not, shaming or not. Even the words, "I love you" can be used manipulatively or ugly -- so I don't buy the idea that just by it's very existence, "there is no try" is a negative belief to hold.