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Comparing ear piercing to RIC - Page 2

post #21 of 38
The situations are analogous to a certain extent in terms of bioethical principles - bodily autonomy, beneficence, non-maleficence etc. Both involve what is technically mutilation (no matter how attractive either is considered by the perpetrators) on healthy body parts; and both are painful procedures performed on non-consenting minors for cultural/aesthetic reasons.

Debating-wise, whether or not it's a good card to play depends on the company you're in. A lot of people don't think ear piercing is an issue at all, so comparing the two could cause circ to be downplayed in their minds. Tattooing is perhaps a better example, as most people would balk at the thought of doing that to a baby (perhaps because more people seem to regret their tattoos than their pierced ears? Or perhaps just because of cultural unfamiliarity, or the very strong connotations of permanence tattooing has.) And of course, circumcision is a far more severe procedure with sexual and functional consequences, whereas in theory a pierced ear will usually heal right up leaving only a small, barely-visible scar. Yes, complications can happen, which is another reason I'm against ear-piercing; but circ routinely causes significant functional and cosmetic damage to the body part involved, whereas ear piercing very rarely does. In that sense, it's as inappropriate to compare ear piercing to circ as it is to compare circ to the really extreme forms of FGM (more so, even) - the ethical issues may be similar, but the level and repercussions of the physical damage is not.

So while there are real analogies, I think the argument more likely to convince an intactivist parent not to pierce his baby girl's ears, than likely to convince a mainstream parent that circ is evil. You know?
post #22 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by emma1325 View Post
She seems to think that:

1) doctors wouldn't do it if it were very painful
and
2) doctors wouldn't do it if it weren't necessary and healthy
This is an interesting point. In a way, how can we blame people for seeing it this way? Makes me wonder if we might be focussing our attention in the wrong area. Instead of trying to convince people, one set of expecting parents at a time, to eschew this legal medical procedure, maybe we should train our efforts on physicians and hospitals, to at least make this a procedure that is more difficult to obtain and ultimately to make it illegal except for consenting adults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emma1325 View Post
In casually discussing the issue with her, she said that when she had my DH (1979) she wasn't told that she had a choice in the matter. She thought it was mandatory.
In the year 2000 in my city, it was treated pretty much that way at the hospital here. In giving the tour of the maternity ward, there was a point where the nurse said "and if it's a boy, then we bring him down here for the circumcision". I quickly said "we are definitely NOT consenting to that!" To this the nurse's voice sort of faltered, and she looked almost as though she wondered if she were on Candid Camera or something. She replied, "well, I guess you can tell someone you don't want that done..." It was clear that in all her time as a L/D nurse, she had never ever heard of anyone not circumcising their baby boys.
post #23 of 38
I can see why people think that they are comparable. But ear piercing is pretty reversable, where circumcision is not (when compared to each other.) Also, parents who pierce a child's ears understand that it's only cosmetic, there is not misinformation about it being healthier and what not. There isn't a stigma attached to not having your ears pierced. I know that both are painful (although I've had piercings and didn't think they hurt) but I definitely don't think that's a good argument for not circumcising. The pain for people that pro-circ is just collateral damage as they already see the circumcision as the benefit.
post #24 of 38
benj: Ear piercing isn't always reversible: a scar is often left, and in some cases the holes don't always close up. I mean, yeah, it's a lot more "reversible" than circ, but not entirely or always - one mama on MDC mentioned that she'd been pierced as a baby and still gets infected sores on her ears.

It's a good point about ear piercing not being regarded as medical, but there is in some circles a stigma to not being pierced (or not piercing the baby, more accurately). Ear piercing at birth is so common in some cultures that not doing it considered weird or even wrong - "How will people know she's a girl?"-type arguments, or even "It's cruel to make her do it later when she'll feel the pain" arguments are common. Again, I've read stories from mamas on MDC who've been strongly pressured to pierce, and for reasons that sound suspiciously similar to some circing arguments - she'll be the odd one out, it's part of her cultural heritage, she'll want it done later anyway, etc. I recall at least one story in which family members threatened to take the baby away and get it done while babysitting - sound familiar?
post #25 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
benj: Ear piercing isn't always reversible: a scar is often left, and in some cases the holes don't always close up. I mean, yeah, it's a lot more "reversible" than circ, but not entirely or always - one mama on MDC mentioned that she'd been pierced as a baby and still gets infected sores on her ears.

It's a good point about ear piercing not being regarded as medical, but there is in some circles a stigma to not being pierced (or not piercing the baby, more accurately). Ear piercing at birth is so common in some cultures that not doing it considered weird or even wrong - "How will people know she's a girl?"-type arguments, or even "It's cruel to make her do it later when she'll feel the pain" arguments are common. Again, I've read stories from mamas on MDC who've been strongly pressured to pierce, and for reasons that sound suspiciously similar to some circing arguments - she'll be the odd one out, it's part of her cultural heritage, she'll want it done later anyway, etc. I recall at least one story in which family members threatened to take the baby away and get it done while babysitting - sound familiar?

I know, that's why I specified that is was more reversible only when compared to each other. I've had a lot of piercings (none done as a baby) and just took them out when I got tired of them. Yeah, there are some scars...but it doesn't bother me. I am circumcised as well, and even though those scars bother me, I never thought to equate the two.

I am not familiar with the ear piercing pressure, quite honestly.
post #26 of 38
doctors pierce baby's ears and thats not necessary or painless so why are they doing that? her argument for why circ is ok contradicts what she believes about infant ear piercing.
post #27 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandi View Post
Even obvious defect correction may be questionable especially on intersexed babies.
Good point! The crimes perpetrated against those poor babies are just horrific.
post #28 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandi View Post
Even obvious defect correction may be questionable especially on intersexed babies.
Obviously, the parents of an intersexed baby have a lot of things to consider. In my post, I was talking about cosmetic surgeries. Gender assignment is much more than cosmetic.

I was thinking more along the lines of cleft lip, hemangiomas, stuff like that. Those things don't necessarily HAVE to be corrected, but I wouldn't fault parents who aim to do so.
post #29 of 38
Circumcision alters the function and appearance of the sex organ which can not be compared to ear-piercing.
post #30 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by tutucrazy View Post
Circumcision alters the function and appearance of the sex organ which can not be compared to ear-piercing.
Nobody has opined on my earlier comment regarding tattoos.

Would you tattoo a baby if it were legal? How about piercing a baby's tragus, or eyebrow, or nose? Why or why not?

How is piercing of someone else's earlobes, without their permission, considered to be acceptable, when most people would find it abominable to do those other things?
post #31 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2xy View Post
Nobody has opined on my earlier comment regarding tattoos.

Would you tattoo a baby if it were legal? How about piercing a baby's tragus, or eyebrow, or nose? Why or why not?

How is piercing of someone else's earlobes, without their permission, considered to be acceptable, when most people would find it abominable to do those other things?
Cultural brainwashing makes illogical things logical.
post #32 of 38
Infant ear piercing and the excuses for it reflect the excuses for circumcision.

-It looks better
No, it doesn't. It looks like your poor child just had holes poked through their ears. Pierced ears with earrings are seen as an "adult" thing, and seeing something meant for an adult on a small child or infant is gross. Just like seeing a circumcised boy, whose penis looks like it's erect to an extent due to the exposed head, looks wrong.

-It's cultural.
Is culture ever an excuse to make permanent decisions on another person's body?

-Most girls are happy they have it done.
Just like most cut guys are happy with their penises. My sister HATES earrings, HATES piercings, and would be seriously pissed if my parents had ever gotten her ears pierced. She didn't decide this until she was older. So if she'd gotten her ears pierced at 6 months and decided at ten she hated her earrings, she'd have holes there forever.

Obviously these two types of body modification are on opposite sides of the severity spectrum, but taking away bodily integrity from a person is never ok.
post #33 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2xy View Post
Nobody has opined on my earlier comment regarding tattoos.

Would you tattoo a baby if it were legal? How about piercing a baby's tragus, or eyebrow, or nose? Why or why not?

How is piercing of someone else's earlobes, without their permission, considered to be acceptable, when most people would find it abominable to do those other things?
Of course tattooing and piercing anything on a non-consenting minor is not right. I don't even agree with piercing ears either, though mine were pierced when I was 4 weeks old. I suffered many ear infections as a baby and as a result pulled on one of my earrings and now I have a permanent slit instead of a whole where the piercing is. I wish my mom had waited until I was older. Now I constantly loose earrings on that side and I have an ugly slit.

I guess the only thing is that I don't like to compare the two b/c it can make some parents trivialize the severity of genital cutting. Parents like to think it is just a "snip" or solely cosmetic, which is not the case. The penis is a sex organ and the foreskin is a functional part of that organ. This is something we need to get people to understand in order to change attitudes about circ in our country. Comparing it to ear piercing does nothing to further people's education about the value of foreskin, for this reason I prefer to keep these two issues separate.
post #34 of 38
The thing for me is this: I have multiple piercings, in my ears, nose, I used to have my eyebrow and lip pierced, my belly button...and I also have tattoos. The pain from my ear piercings was well...it really didnt hurt. Niether did my bellybutton. The others did, however. Tattoos hurt as well.

The thing is though, you never know what that specific childs pain threshold will be, if they will like them as adults, and as some have said, some kids also have issues with infections and the like (my kids didnt, but I'm not sure why-I was hardly a cleaning nut...maybe thats better for them?). As I said before, my first didnt even blink. It didnt bother him in the least. My second screamed for an hour. Obviously she has a much lower pain threshold-at least in her ears-than her brother does.

Anywho, I could definately see comparing a tattoo to circ more than ear piercing, or really any piercing. Again, it'd come down to *well, you can take the nose ring out...* But tattoos, well those arnt reversible, not totally...but it still doesnt effect function. I'm not sure what a good analogy would be to use.
post #35 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocsNemesis View Post
I'm not sure what a good analogy would be to use.
The only okay analogy would be to compare removal of clitiral hood (female foreskin). Even this analogy doesn't quit measure up b/c the removal of the clitoral hood does not have as dramatic of an impact on the sex organ as removal of the male foeskin.
post #36 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by DocsNemesis View Post
Your MIL has most likely never seen a circ being performed. She doesn't know about the nerves and pain, how long it takes, etc. Imo, next time you see her, make her watch a circ video. Maybe then she'll see that its not just as bad, but worse, than ear piercing.
This was my thought too. I had a discussion with an acquaintance and she said she wasn't allowed in the room where they were doing the circumcision (I think the father was though - I don't even want to think about the logic they use for that policy), so it wouldn't surprise me that most people don't even know what really happens. When it's always described as "a little snip", it doesn't really convey what's really going on. Thankfully, now we have YouTube...
post #37 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2xy View Post
Nobody has opined on my earlier comment regarding tattoos.

Would you tattoo a baby if it were legal? How about piercing a baby's tragus, or eyebrow, or nose? Why or why not?

How is piercing of someone else's earlobes, without their permission, considered to be acceptable, when most people would find it abominable to do those other things?
Well, I made the same argument on another board recently when someone expressed outrage over a news article about a man who tattooed a gang sign on his 6 year old boy. They were saying the man should rot in hell, etc. This was a person who had her 3 sons circumcised at birth. I drew the comparison and was hugely criticized. The primary arguments in the defense of circumcision was that it was 1)legal and 2)the parent's choice. I believe it was also mentioned that circumcision does afford some medical benefit while tattooing does not. No one seemed to want to accept that the two things were at all similar.
post #38 of 38
I think ear-piercing (of a non-consenting child) and circ have some things in common.

I would tend not to mention the two together because there is no comparison in terms of the injury in each case, and circ is already frequently trivalized.

Ear-piercing of a non-consenting child is assault (breaks 2 layers of skin, but
doesnt remove a whole lot of flesh), while circumcision is assault with grevious bodily harm (permanent disfigurement).

Technically circumcision is illegal (though not the illegality is not enforced of course.)
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