So, I can't quite believe I'm asking this -- but what breed of dog next?

[Momily]

Lyle's been home 6 weeks and I'm loving having a dog way more than I thought I would. I knew I'd love the dog, but I'm actually really settling into the routine of getting up early in the morning and having some alone time -- just me and Lyle walking through the neighborhood, and of going to the dog park with DS instead of a movie or some other unhealthy activity.

DS is also loving having a dog, and is really being great about helping out etc . . . But he's decided that 1 is not enough, we should have 2, and I kind of agree. Afterall, if we're already paying for a dog walker and arranging our schedule so that we're never gone too long, and heading out on walks, then 2should be OK.

We take Lyle to the dog park or training classs, or daycare almost every day -- it's his favorite thing, and he's so much more happier in the evenings when he has been able to romp and play with other dogs during the day. I think he'd really enjoy a playmate full time.

We rent our home right now but are looking to buy within the next year or two. I told DS absolutely no second dog while we're in a rental (our landlord won't allow it for one), which of course he took to mean "if we buy a house you can have a second dog". Now he's researching breeds like crazy. He wants a puppy, which I think would be fun, but I've read that you should be more careful with breed selection with puppies since you can't predict the adult temperament.

In my experience with him, it would be better to say no to him now before he gets his heart set on something. If I spend 2 years saying "maybe you can have a husky (his first pick -- I already said no to that, everything I read says they need tons of exercise)" then in 2 years I say "no husky" I'll be in trouble.

I should add that we'd probably get a rescue dog, most likely a mix, so I figure I'll need a sense of a variety of breeds that would work and then pick a dog who appears to be a mix of those breeds.

Anyway, here's us -- we live in a rowhouse in the city with a fenced yard (if we buy we'd almost definitely buy something similar). We're both gone all day but with a midday dogwalker (could come twice while puppy is young). Dog gets about 1 1/2 to 2 hours a day of out of the house exercise (walking, going to the dog park, right now obedience classes, might eventually move up to agility) and would have a playmate to play with. We'll be "experienced" but with a really really easy dog, and frankly neither of us has good "dominant" personalities so a laid back breed would be good. DS has his heart set on a bigger dog than Lyle, so maybe 35 to 60 lbs ideally?

What breeds would you consider? What breeds would you stay far away from?

[carfreemama]

Dogs are addictive, aren't they? That's one of (many) great things about rescue groups I've found. They are absolute experts at helping match the right dogs to the right family situations. The woman in rescue I've been working with has helped me see different angles and insights into things I never would have thought of. For example, I was pretty sure I wanted a pug and only a pug for this time around. I wanted a dog that dd could walk easily, had a reputation for being excellent with kids and could be transported in a carrier. Like you, dh and I are absolutely NOT dominant people and don't do well at all dealing with any type of aggression. This coordinator pointed us to Sparky. Since we haven't actually met him (we are taking him based on history/profile/many discussions/pictures), it remains to be seen. But it sounds like we've found the perfect dog for us and not even close to a pug! Basically, she helped us see past the short-term and more towards the long-term (we decided a pug might be a little TOO small and inactive to meet our family's energy level over the years). Their skills in helping to figure out the perfect dog--breed or otherwise--amaze me. Good luck! Lyle sounds awesome!

[Ola_]

The only breeds I would probably stay away from are toy breeds. Other than that I would let Lyle have the final pick - that's what we did (after we did the pre-screening). I had two main criteria for a second dog: no aggression problems and had to get along with Chaos. There was nothing I wanted less than doggie disagreements on a daily basis (and I know folks who have to separate their dogs at all times with baby gates and taking turns spending time with the family - totally not my idea of fun!).

Mayhem was the only dog Chaos played with from the ones we met, but still when we brought him home she barked at him each time he moved. Which is to say there's always adjustments but they get along very well now (though they don't play together sadly).

[Momily]

Ola,

I get what you're saying that temperament is more important than breed. Our new vet's best guess is that Lyle is "mostly Australian Shepherd". That's not exactly a breed I would have searched for on petfinder. Yet he's the perfect dog for us, medium energy, very easy going and well behaved, almost completely silent. He is wicked smart though, definitely has that Aussie characteristic.

But if we're looking at puppies, I've heard you can't really predict temperament, or at least not as well, and size is equally hard. So, then breed does become important, at least that's what I hear. If I want a medium size I shouldn't be looking at mastiffs or min pin (two breeds available right now in my neighborhood). If I don't want a really dominant personality, a pitbull or a rottweiler would not be the right choice, and if I want a dog to run along side my bike, or attend agility classes with Lyle then probably not an English Bulldog.

[Momily]

I should mention that my son is stuck on 4 breeds, in this order: Husky, GSD, Golden Retriever, Lab. My thought is that the first 2 are no and the last two might be yes. There are tons of shepherd mixes and lab mixes in rescue around here, so we could decide that we're only looking at lab mixes and still have lots of choices.

I keep looking at the coonhounds, anyone know if they can do OK in the city?

[Ola_]

One of the things to consider is Lyle's play style and his approach to other dogs. For example, my Chaos is a chase-and-jaw-wrestle kind of dog. Many (most?) labs out there like to do more body-slamming type of play which bothers her a lot. There was a dog book that talked about this sort of stuff, I want to say Successful Dog Adoptions but I could be wrong.

I would probably go for a shepherd mix before a lab mix based on that, but of course it totally depends on the individual. I agree that a non-puppy (or an older puppy, in the adolescent ballpark) would be much more predictable, both in terms of temperament and personality. And honestly, baby lab/retriever puppies are the most mouthy trouble-making things I've ever met.

How does Lyle get along with other dogs in general?

[Momily]

Hmmm body slamming doesn't sound like Lyle's style.

I would say that Lyle does pretty well with other dogs. If he meets them on leash and they're approaching him directly he does this funky thing where he gets down like a border collie herding sheep. At the dog park I'd describe him as somewhere between "great" and "inept toddler little brother". He can't always keep up with the big dogs and is often kind of running behind like "me too! let me play too!" But he gets more speed, stamina, and skills every time so I'm sure by the time we're in a place for a puppy he'd be He also sometimes gets intimidated by big dogs -- we met a 125 leonberger puppy this weekend, and there's a big mastiff in his doggie class -- he gets growly (but not lunging, growling and backing up) with both of them. He had the same reaction to the black bear we saw today through our car window.

He plays best with boxers (but my son doesn't like boxers, he has this thing against all short snouted breeds whether they're boxers or lhasa apsos), and this one beagle we know -- he like to jaw wrestle, and to come in and kind of tease the bigger dogs and then jump away sideways.

I think of German shepherds as being really "assertive" dogs, and needing a firm hand. Firm is not our strength. Should I be rethinking that?

[it's just apples]

fwiw, our adopted as an adult GSD/Lab mix has the BEST dog relationship skills I've ever seen, and is a pretty mellow girl. It's very individual, especially with mixes, IME. I think a GSD/Lab mix could be great and they are *so* painfully plentiful in rescue (especially if you're willing to consider a black adult dog).

[Sailor]

I have a GSD, I volunteer in GSD rescue, I grew up with GSD's (5 of them!) .... so obviously I'm totally biased here.

I think they're wonderful family dogs. I do think GSD's require a bit more work/knowledge simply because they do have that guarding instinct. But, with the right training - they will be your velcro dog, your best friend, the sun will rise and set with you, they'll protect you with their life, and you will never again go to the bathroom alone. Actually, dobes are like that too - even more, as they're considered "velcro dogs". But, GSD's are right up there in the velcro department.

Having said that, though, obviously you need to choose a breed that fits your family and your dog.

GSD puppies are A LOT of work. I mean A LOT. They're one of the mouthiest breeds, and I have scars on my hands from when Roark was a puppy. This wasn't aggression. Just general mouthiness and not knowing one's strength yet. They need mental challenges, and will be bored otherwise. A GSD puppy is a 24/7 job - or at least it was for me, lol.

I'd love to get another dog myself, but we're in a condo and one dog is also the limit here.

[GearGirl]

My rescue is a lab/poodle mix, often called a labradoodle when they are intentionally bred. He is AMAZING. The sweetest, gentlest loving guy.

[Momily]

Originally Posted by Sailor

I I do think GSD's require a bit more work/knowledge simply because they do have that guarding instinct. But, with the right training - they will be your velcro dog, your best friend, the sun will rise and set with you, they'll protect you with their life, and you will never again go to the bathroom alone. Actually, dobes are like that too - even more, as they're considered "velcro dogs". But, GSD's are right up there in the velcro department.

I think this is what worries me, for us as a family. The "right training" part. My 10 year old is great with the dog -- for a ten year old. In other words he tries really hard but isn't as patient, firm or consistent as you or I might be. I worry that if we end up with a dog that's "too much" I'm going to be stepping in to do a lot of training, and the dog will "velcro" to me. Or worse yet, that the dog will respond to inconsistencies of training by not getting trained at all, or by developing bad habits, which in a guard breed could be really bad.

In contrast with the goofy lab we had growing up, we made all sorts of mistakes -- well meaning mistakes, but lots of them. But his temperament made that OK -- yes he still chewed things up and pulled too hard on his leash, and jumped on people, but we could count on him not to go to far.

[mamallama]

Yeah, I see what you're saying about inherent drive possibly causing problems. I have a GSD bias also : but considering how my GSD had 4 homes in the year before I got her and an unknown background before that, I have to agree that they're not right for everyone.

On paper, I would think a GSD would be a better match than a lab or a golden for an Australian Shepherd. Play style is a big part of it. My other dog, a GSD/lab mix, is very much into body slam wrestling. My GSD will body slam with him, but her preferred style is chase, preferably with a stick as a prop.

My GSD, and others I've known, have not needed (or appreciated) a loud, dominant style of handling. They need little things like NILF, and basic things, like consistency. They are typically quick at picking up family life and social niceties. I really haven't known many labs who had much of a clue about subtlety

In short, I think you (and v.likely your son,) are much better at dog handling than you think you are. If you are talking about getting a puppy in a year from now, then you're looking at adolescence (when dogs start to test their people,) in 2-2.5 years. By then, your son will be 12-13, and my guess is he'll do a fine job with whatever dog you choose.

[Momily]

Thanks, I appreciate your vote of confidence!

Although I see where the vet gets the "Australian Shepherd" theory, I don't think we can think of Lyle that way when looking to match him. Whatever he's mixed with is clearly smaller, calmer (and fluffier) than a Aussie. I'm not sure what Aussie play looks like, but I do know that many of his other characteristics (e.g NEVER barks, very settled at 16-19 months, no herding behaviors, kind of "old before his time", the first word anyone applies to him is "sweet") are not typical of the breed. He's got the intelligence, and seems to be heading towards the stamina, but otherwise he's not very "aussie like", at least based on what I understand an Aussie to be like. A better way to think of him might be a dog who plays best with Boxers -- are there other dogs who play like Boxers?

I notice that noone is jumping at my coonhound idea. Is that just a bad idea I need to get out of my head?

Oh, and I'm editing to add, is when I say DS isn't "firm" enough -- I don't mean yelling or flipping the dog over or forcibly dominating.

I'm a teacher, specifically a special ed teacher who specializes in kids with emotional issues. There's an intangible quality that gives one power in the classroom. That ability to simply stand still and raise and eyebrow and the kid gets the message "I know you can do this, and I'm happy to wait until you do, go ahead". It's about confidence, and patience. I can do that with humans, and I'm figuring out how to do with with Lyle, DS doesn't have it, but maybe you're right and he'll have it at 12.

[mamallama]

Originally Posted by Momily

I'm a teacher, specifically a special ed teacher who specializes in kids with emotional issues. There's an intangible quality that gives one power in the classroom. That ability to simply stand still and raise and eyebrow and the kid gets the message "I know you can do this, and I'm happy to wait until you do, go ahead". It's about confidence, and patience. I can do that with humans, and I'm figuring out how to do with with Lyle, DS doesn't have it, but maybe you're right and he'll have it at 12.

This is your key to success! This is exactly what makes me successful with dogs and other people's toddlers. To a lesser (and much more finessed!) extent, I draw on those qualities with my doula clients.

I doubt that this personality trait can be polished to a high shine by adolescence, but your son knows how it works, and if he's interested in cultivating it for the good of your dogs, I'm sure you can figure out how to help him.

edited to add: I'm not a fan of working hounds as pets--that kind of drive is very specific and hard to channel (unless, say, you're a runner)

[Sailor]

I think you should give yourself more credit! I see your posts on this board, and it sound like you're doing a really great job with your current dog.

If you went down the GSD route, you wouldn't be getting one from working lines. You'd be getting a companion dog. If you went through rescue, they'd match you with a GSD that was ideal for your family. I'm involved in GSD rescue, and we've adopted out to first time dog owners, with kids. So, it's not as bad as you're thinking!

However, I will say that most GSD's pick one person in the family with which to bond and stick to them. I mean, they bond with the whole family and love everyone. But, they will pick a "favorite." More so than any other dog would. So, that's something to consider.

The coonhound .... like the other poster said, working hounds have a specific drive. Channeling that in the form of a companion dog may be challenging! But, obviously, not impossible. You could certainly do a lot of fun things with a coonhound - a lot of potential for seeking and scent work there. It really depends what type of training and play you (or your son) are interested in.

[number572]

check out youtube for breed videos. here's the australian shepherd one & then on the lower right of the page, you'll see many other breed vids. i loved having two at the same time & am going to get a second again after i get moved into the new house. (i had 2 & recently lost one to old age)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6_Cp9vM9hM

[Momily]

Number 572, Thanks for the cool videos!

Two things jumped out at me in the Aussie video as very "Lyle" like. One is the eye contact -- the way that dog was constantly looking into the eyes of it's owner. Lyle is like that -- we've had problems at dog training class because no matter who is handling him (my son, the teacher) Lyle is turning around to look at me.

The other is the head, and the way he used his ears to communicate -- very very Lyle-like. I can totally see why the vet thinks that.

Sailor,

I don't think GSD's are "bad". I just don't know if they're right for us. If I had little kids (as opposed to big ones) and wanted a dog for me, that would be good with them too it sounds like they'd be a great choice. But that's not what I want -- I want a dog that will be primarily DS's -- well, that's not accurate, I want a dog that will be equally bonded and responsive to both of us, and that will respond to a "tentative style". I just don't see GSDs as fitting that profile.

So, if not a GSD, or a coonhound (but those floppy ears are soooo cute!), or a retriever, then what should I be looking for -- big but not too big, active but not too active, good with kids?

[Ola_]

I think you're probably looking at a shepherd mix anyway if you'd like a rescue, so it's not very likely that you'll end up with a high-drive pet. Hopefully the rescue will help you choose a more mellow (but confident) pup if you ask them.

I'm not big on the coonhound as for some reason the few I've met were a bit stand-offish (that may not be common though, couldn't really say based on my limited sample). Beagles/beagle mixes are very nice dogs though and one of Chaos' favourite breeds for playing with.

I think living with pets helps to teach kids patience, especially at the age your son is at and since he really enjoys dogs. I know my siblings (much younger than me) have really learned how to act around the dogs and they were under 10 when we got our first one. Plus I think Lyle will be good learning experience for your DS, especially with you setting the example.

[Denien]

As a previous coonhound breeder, I wanted to chime in. They can be very energetic, they are generally extremely vocal - which might not sit well with your neighbors, they also often have a competitive tendency.....which can cause aggression when they are eating, having to share something, etc. As a city dweller, especially with limited yard space and neighbors to think of, I don't know that I would chose one.

I've always owned Aussies, and currently have a mini Aussie. Again, very playful and lots of energy. I prefer the breed because they do seem to adapt well to any lifestyle, are good with kids and other dogs. (mine even love the cats!)

[foreverinbluejeans]

We have a goldadore, a golden retriever lab mix. She is a very low energy, great family dog. We are fostering 2 kittens and she lets them crawl all over her and sleep on her and she gives them baths. She is great with my grandbaby.

She wasn't too smart as a puppy but now at 2 she is doing better. Gets along with people, dogs, cats, everybody. She is very beautiful but does shed a lot and does need brushing. Doesn't need baths unless she gets dirty. She weighs about 50 pounds and will let you pick her up. Doesn't beg for people food and doesn't overeat. She can get by with letting her run around the yard and going for a car ride (that counts as exercise since you have to keep from falling over). She was from a rescue but goldadores are bred and can be expensive mutts.

There is a labradoodle that lives across the street. Someone else mentioned labradoodles. I would love to have one. They are so funny, cute looking. She walks like she is prancing and always looks happy and is nice to everyone. They are hard to find and puppies can be $2000+. I keep watching shelters and rescues to see if one turns up.

We have fostered dogs. What you can do is foster a dog you might like and then if you do like it you can have first chance at keeping it. If not then you will have gained more doggie experience and doggie people friends. In the area I live in the shelters and rescues all can be found on Craigslist. Beware, you may find lists of dogs with pictures that are going to be killed that day at the shelter if someone doesn't adopt or foster that dog. It can be heartbreaking.