WTH is CPS for? Vent

[MayBaby2007]

I work at a hotel. We had some "locals" staying here yesterday. They were scheduled to stay one week. The lady and 3 of her kids were outside waiting on her husband to get back. Two girls ages 3 and 4 and a boy age 5.

The kids were being kids, yk? Just being kids...playfully running aroud with each other, etc. Everytime they got on mom's nerves she would hit them. If they ran away from her, she would catch them by grabbing their hair (the girls) and yank them back so she could hit them again.

The 4 year old had a cast on her arm. The mom told me, "She likes pain. That's how she got the broken arm."

She yelled at them several times, "Get your effing a** back here or I'm going to beat your a**!". She later told me, "I have to wait for their dad to get home so he can whip them. If I do it I'll wind up in jail for abuse..." She rambled something about having anger issues.

I didn't say anything. I couldn't say anything. (Looking back I would have told her "hitting is never okay" and called the cops then and there). I called the abuse hotline and told them everything--even the child with the broken arm. I gave them the address/phone number we had on file and told them they were at my hotel.

Abuse hotline asked me, "Did you see any visible marks". Me, "Well, no not really other than the broken arm." Abuse hotline: "Well we can't make a report of this unless there are visible marks. You can call your local police for a welfare check. That's all you can do." (So, the cops aren't going to see marks either so why bother?!)

So I get to work today and they're gone. Even if they were still here, there's apparently nothing that can be done to help those kids. WTH is wrong with CPS? Does a kid have to be beat to a pulp/dead before they make a report?

My heart hearts. My stomach is in knots. Keep thinking about those kids. Just needed to vent. I'm going to call a CPS caseworker who I know personally tomorrow and see if there's anything she can do.

[2xy]

I feel your pain.

Years ago, I called CPS on a family member, and was told the same thing. "We didn't see any marks on him." I had only been around this cousin a handful of times and witnessed her kick her 6yo, verbally abuse him, and whack him across the face with her shoe. I shudder to think of what happened when nobody was watching.

He eventually was removed from the home....at age 15 when he was big enough and angry enough to hit her back. As far as I know, he went to foster care. He also suffers from fetal alcohol effect.

Sad, sad cases. I hope you get somewhere with yours.

[BBerryBliss]

According to a caseworker I talked to, the bruising falls within the legal definition of physical abuse, so without them, they can't do much, because there is no "proof".

I was told that every call (supposedly) gets logged thou, so if anything else does happen it's supposed to show that there were calls before.

If you want it changed you might have to work to change the law.

[inkslinger]

That is really sad.

At our old apartment, our downstairs neighbor (single mom) would regularly beat on her 3 kids in front of us...in plain sight in the middle of the complex. The walls/floors were thin and we could hear the pure hell that went on inside of their aparment, too. Screaming kids, screaming mom, slamming, breaking, etc. We called cps/cops/everyone we could think of SO many times to no avail. A few times they would come over, knock on her door, and she'd say that there were no kids there (even though we heard the chaos a minute before) and the cops would leave. When we were moving out of the complex we accidentally left the door unlocked during one of our trips back and forth. Our apartment got ransacked & several things were stolen. The next day I saw one of the daughters wearing my shoes, which were too big for her by several sizes. I felt so incredibly bad that we could do nothing for them even though we tried so many times.

[Snuzzmom]

That makes no sense to me.

I called CPS on a family who lives across the street from my child's daycare. There were some pretty big indicators of neglect, but I had no "proof" and I told them that. They came, they talked to the parents, and apparently it was a good thing because the little boy in question is now getting help and is bieng monitored (he's still at home with his parents).

So I don't understand why CPS in your area won't at least investigate.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

OK, donning flame suit at the outset of this...

Unfortunately, spanking is not illegal. CPS isn't going to be able to intervene into purely legal (if poor) discipline. Many here at MDC think hitting a child is abuse but, in purely legal terms, it is not. It doesn't become legal abuse until it leaves a visible mark in most states. Thus, no mark, no abuse, no CPS. Unless the mom said she broke her child's arm, there isn't any reason to think it wasn't broken when the child was doing something dangerous, ignoring pain warnings that it was dangerous (my DS does this -- doesn't pay attention to the idea that things that hurt probably aren't things you should do). I've needed to wait for my DH to come home to deal with issues because I realize that my own abusive upbringing sometimes makes my first response a very poor one -- maybe mom realizes that she can't control herself, in which case waiting for dad to come home is a really good thing. And maybe not for all of these things -- point is that you can't tell from what you saw and heard.

Really, do we want CPS to intervene in cases where the behavior of the parents is legal but "we" (the generic we) think is wrong? How many things do you (generic you) do that many people around you think is wrong? Not vaxing? Co-sleeping? Unschooling? Do we really want people calling CPS for those things? After all, some people thing these are "abuse". Luckily for us, they do not meet the legal definition of abuse.

Its hard. Its frustrating. Its great that you want to protect these kids. But truly, the only way this works is if we respect everyone's right to parent as they please, within the limits of the law.

[Snuzzmom]

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

OK, donning flame suit at the outset of this...

Unfortunately, spanking is not illegal. CPS isn't going to be able to intervene into purely legal (if poor) discipline. Many here at MDC think hitting a child is abuse but, in purely legal terms, it is not. It doesn't become legal abuse until it leaves a visible mark in most states. Thus, no mark, no abuse, no CPS. Unless the mom said she broke her child's arm, there isn't any reason to think it wasn't broken when the child was doing something dangerous, ignoring pain warnings that it was dangerous (my DS does this -- doesn't pay attention to the idea that things that hurt probably aren't things you should do). I've needed to wait for my DH to come home to deal with issues because I realize that my own abusive upbringing sometimes makes my first response a very poor one -- maybe mom realizes that she can't control herself, in which case waiting for dad to come home is a really good thing. And maybe not for all of these things -- point is that you can't tell from what you saw and heard.

Really, do we want CPS to intervene in cases where the behavior of the parents is legal but "we" (the generic we) think is wrong? How many things do you (generic you) do that many people around you think is wrong? Not vaxing? Co-sleeping? Unschooling? Do we really want people calling CPS for those things? After all, some people thing these are "abuse". Luckily for us, they do not meet the legal definition of abuse.

Its hard. Its frustrating. Its great that you want to protect these kids. But truly, the only way this works is if we respect everyone's right to parent as they please, within the limits of the law.

I get what you're saying. It's sad, but true.

However, the hair-pulling seems to cross the line from "spanking" to "abuse" even if it doesn't leave any marks. It's just cruel.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Snuzzmom

I get what you're saying. It's sad, but true.

However, the hair-pulling seems to cross the line from "spanking" to "abuse" even if it doesn't leave any marks. It's just cruel.

It probably is abuse, but it's also pretty much completely impossible to prove. CPS shows up. MayBaby says, "I saw that woman pull that child's hair". Mom says, "I never did that." So...what happens? Nothing. CPS can't take a child because someone says they saw something.

I'd like to think a worker would be sent out for this, but I can also see why one wouldn't be. CPS tends to be pretty backlogged, and a call like this would be hard to address...even the person calling (MayBaby) didn't have any kind of proof.

[BBerryBliss]

Also with the neglect thing, abuse and neglect are considered 2 different (yet often connected) issues to CPS.

[Swirly]

It sounds to me as if that whole family is just crying out for help. The parents are clearly in a tight spot if they are living in hotels. The mom needs all kinds of therapy and parenting help probably. And the kids sound like they need some peace and stability. I am hoping they find some help soon.

[Lisa85]

Originally Posted by Snuzzmom

That makes no sense to me.

I called CPS on a family who lives across the street from my child's daycare. There were some pretty big indicators of neglect, but I had no "proof" and I told them that. They came, they talked to the parents, and apparently it was a good thing because the little boy in question is now getting help and is bieng monitored (he's still at home with his parents).

So I don't understand why CPS in your area won't at least investigate.

Neglect is different from physical abuse. No food in the house could be a sign of neglect. A filthy house is a sign of neglect. Leaving a 4 year old home without someone to supervise is a sign of neglect. None of those are physical marks, but they are still neglect. However, when you call and report 'physical abuse' they look for proof of physical abuse, which would be marks.

Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom

OK, donning flame suit at the outset of this...

Unfortunately, spanking is not illegal. CPS isn't going to be able to intervene into purely legal (if poor) discipline. Many here at MDC think hitting a child is abuse but, in purely legal terms, it is not. It doesn't become legal abuse until it leaves a visible mark in most states. Thus, no mark, no abuse, no CPS. Unless the mom said she broke her child's arm, there isn't any reason to think it wasn't broken when the child was doing something dangerous, ignoring pain warnings that it was dangerous (my DS does this -- doesn't pay attention to the idea that things that hurt probably aren't things you should do). I've needed to wait for my DH to come home to deal with issues because I realize that my own abusive upbringing sometimes makes my first response a very poor one -- maybe mom realizes that she can't control herself, in which case waiting for dad to come home is a really good thing. And maybe not for all of these things -- point is that you can't tell from what you saw and heard.

Really, do we want CPS to intervene in cases where the behavior of the parents is legal but "we" (the generic we) think is wrong? How many things do you (generic you) do that many people around you think is wrong? Not vaxing? Co-sleeping? Unschooling? Do we really want people calling CPS for those things? After all, some people thing these are "abuse". Luckily for us, they do not meet the legal definition of abuse.

Its hard. Its frustrating. Its great that you want to protect these kids. But truly, the only way this works is if we respect everyone's right to parent as they please, within the limits of the law.

ITA!! Many, many people believe AP things are abuse. Many believe it's poor parenting. But until someone has proof, there's nothing they can do. Otherwise it's he said she said. If a MIL who believes her DIL has poor parenting skills because she cosleeps and CLW of course you would want proof of abuse or neglect before CPS became involved in your life.

As for having to check out every call, that's only if it's a reportable event, otherwise they would be checking out all sorts of nonsense from agitated family and "friends".

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Originally Posted by Swirly

It sounds to me as if that whole family is just crying out for help. The parents are clearly in a tight spot if they are living in hotels. The mom needs all kinds of therapy and parenting help probably. And the kids sound like they need some peace and stability. I am hoping they find some help soon.

Interesting interpretation. I just assumed that family was there on vacation or during construction or such. Didn't read it that they were living in hotels.

[Evergreen]

My take was hard times too. To be honest I work in the social services sector and here someone would most certainly go out to assess that situation. I doubt there'd be an investigation but I think they'd assess it.