Do you trust birth?--Is that really the question we should be asking? - Page 4

[ScarletBegonias]

What about the fact that in the rest of the world, birth goes wrong a sufficient amount of the time that access to qualified birth attendants is one of the indicators of quality of life? Here that gets chalked up to malnutrition. Which certainly explains part of it, but not all of it. Lack of access to qualified attendants *because sometimes they are needed in birth* is a very valid part of the equation of high infant and maternal mortality.

this is so true. many of the practices in "third" world countries are dangerous too. in addition, child marriage is practiced in many parts of the world, and so many young girls and their babies die in cb, not because of a lack of qualified birth attendants, but because of disturbing and harmful cultural practices. also, malaria is the #1 reason many moms and babies die in cb in parts of africa.

What we don't need is medical model type intervention, obviously since the US has huge intervention rates and one of the highest rates of infant mortality in the developed world. But the answer is not to do away with intervention entirely, a la throwing the baby out with the bathwater in a tragically literal sense of the expression. We need common sense, we need far more trust in birth than we have now, but we don't need that trust to veer into flaky, illogical, non sensical territory.

well put!

but really, it goes back to culture. you can send qualified birth attendants all over the world, but until individual cultures (including the US) stop harmful and damaging practices, those attendants will never have the impact that is needed for health and life.

We need balance.

we need balance now and we need it desperately.

[thismama]

I totes don't buy it's 'their barbaric practices' and not poverty and lack of access to medical help that causes high mortality rates. No freaking way.

[ScarletBegonias]

Originally Posted by thismama

I totes don't buy it's 'their barbaric practices' and not poverty and lack of access to medical help that causes high mortality rates. No freaking way.

huh? i'm sorry, i didn't say that! it IS lack of medical care, poverty, malnourishment, disease AND dangerous cultural practices that cause high mortality rates. i wasn't saying that ONLY harmful practices are to blame! not at all! they are part of the puzzle though for sure. just like the "barbaric" practices in our culture is not the only reason for substandard care and bad outcomes. only part of the picture.

[thismama]

Originally Posted by ScarletBegonias

huh? i'm sorry, i didn't say that! it IS lack of medical care, poverty, malnourishment, disease AND dangerous cultural practices that cause high mortality rates. i wasn't saying that ONLY harmful practices are to blame! not at all! they are part of the puzzle though for sure. just like the "barbaric" practices in our culture is not the only reason for substandard care and bad outcomes. only part of the picture.

Do you have any evidence that barbaric cultural practices contribute significantly to high mortality rates? That allegation sits very uncomfortably with me, and I don't think it should be thrown around without specifics.

[ScarletBegonias]

Originally Posted by thismama

Do you have any evidence that barbaric cultural practices contribute significantly to high mortality rates? That allegation sits very uncomfortably with me, and I don't think it should be thrown around without specifics.

LOL!

are you kidding me? seriously? evidence?

ummmm, let's see..........

child marriage = fistula and babies skulls being crushed so the baby can exit the womb and the mother-child not die, but she usually does die.

treating open wounds from birth with feces.

feeding the mother urine to regain her strength after birth.

on and on.

go look at Midwifery Today's website and read the hundreds of first hand stories and statistics about world cultural birth practices.

i don't mean to be so snarky, but come on! there is myriads of evidence easily found.

birth practices are only a CONTRIBUTING factor, like malnutrition, disease etc.,. that effect mortality rates. only one part, not the whole kit and kaboodle.

just like in our country birth practice is not the only factor contributing to substandard care. lack of education, birth-fear media etc.,.

eta: also, i am not making an allegation, i am merely repeating the facts. just because it makes *you* uncomfortable does not mean that it is not fact.

[thismama]

Where does this happen and in what numbers, and what impact does it have on the mother/child mortality rates of those particular nations?

My concern is that we can have this idea that oh no medical assistance is not necessary in birth, and those people *over there* who die due to lack of assistance are really dying because they are so culturally backward and self destructive, and we're alright man...

Yikes.

[ScarletBegonias]

Originally Posted by thismama

Where does this happen and in what numbers, and what impact does it have on the mother/child mortality rates of those particular nations?

My concern is that we can have this idea that oh no medical assistance is not necessary in birth, and those people *over there* who die due to lack of assistance are really dying because they are so culturally backward and self destructive, and we're alright man...

Yikes.

okay, i understand what you're saying. sorry for little episode there.

i personally don't believe that cultural birth practices account for many or most of the numbers in high mortality countries. i believe that there are several large contributing factors, that when combined, make up high mortality rates. namely: poverty, malnutrition, disease, lack of trained attendants and harmful cultural beliefs/practices.

i think that we could safely say that *unqualified* attendants may bring a fair amount of "barbaric" practices to any birth they "attend".

i am a student midwife, and i'm learning much about world birth practices. just as there are no *widely accepted* studies (i know of) in the US that prove, for example, that early cord clamping is very dangerous and accounts for all sorts of pp problems in mom and baby, there are not many widely accepted statistics on what factors, in specific numbers, contribute to some countries' high mortalilty rates. it is difficult to conduct controlled studies on these factors and get results that paint an accurate picture of that entire country's birth mortality statistics.

[ScarletBegonias]

here is an article about anthropological perspectives on global mw

here is an article about fistulas, which also discusses child marriage