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mamas who don't shave~ what will you tell your dd and will you/do you allow shaving? - Page 12

post #221 of 416
Nobody here is saying we don't groom tho, or don't practice basic hygiene. Grooming =/= shaving, so I don't get why make the point about human grooming, dawn of time, etc. What is the relevance to the discussion about whether we shave or not?
post #222 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
Nobody here is saying we don't groom tho, or don't practice basic hygiene. Grooming =/= shaving, so I don't get why make the point about human grooming, dawn of time, etc. What is the relevance to the discussion about whether we shave or not?
And neither am I.

AGAIN I was referring to the "this is all societies fault/conditioning" talk. Where I do see societies hand I think we are being too dismissive of human nature.
post #223 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
And neither am I.

AGAIN I was referring to the "this is all societies fault/conditioning" talk. Where I do see societies hand I think we are being too dismissive of human nature.
You can't use a nature argument to justify a culturally specific practice tho. It is as illogical as making the same argument for something like breast implants, for example. It's human nature to groom ergo ______ practice is just natural.

The specifics of what is considered beautiful/necessary for people to do, and whether it falls more heavily on one gender than another, the importance placed upon practices, is highly cultural. It is not just human nature.
post #224 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shahbazin View Post
I have less BO when I don't shave.
I'm so insanely jealous!!!! I have tried everything, I've even tried washing my armpit hair with shampoo (okay in retrospect I don't know why I thought that would make a difference but I was desperate for a solution besides shaving because I just really hate doing it - especially since I sometimes forget and then end up having to shave in the sink and rewash my pits : but nothing worked. I tried every kind of shampoo, soap, body wash, natural remedies - both topical and oral - i eat well, I drink a lot of water - im not very active and in fact, I dont even sweat much? I dont know what causes this odor on me, but shaving makes it go away so I shave lol
post #225 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
You can't use a nature argument to justify a culturally specific practice tho. It is as illogical as making the same argument for something like breast implants, for example. It's human nature to groom ergo ______ practice is just natural.

The specifics of what is considered beautiful/necessary for people to do, and whether it falls more heavily on one gender than another, the importance placed upon practices, is highly cultural. It is not just human nature.
Ah but see it isn't heavier on one gender it just so happens one gender has more pressure to look a certain way via society than the other. Yet both genders do feel the pull to appear more appealing, do they not?

I am not talking plastic surgery or the like (in my PP I acknowledged the extremes and said they are always present) I am talking the basic human desire. No specifics, again just the basic human desire. There is a difference between this and cultural specific practices. It's "I want to look good" vs "I want to look good and will accomplish this by going up a bra size". I am referring to the former.

So no society does not dictate our wanting to look good or feel a certain way but it does give us the suggestion (to put it way lightly) of what that should entail. But I wouldn't say no woman would ever think to shave on her own or that shaving was obviously invented by a man etc etc. As it is obvious in our own society we as humans are capable of making our own fashion and grooming choices based on our own preferences and have done this for some time in our history on this earth. We can make up and have made up our own minds through out time. There is that AND there is that culture plays a part- however in varying degrees from person to person.

So one can't say it's all society. It's not. We do have the natural instinct there to want to look appealing and we have the individual thought of what that means. Is it possible for society to dictate that for us? Yup! Doesn't mean it is the case across the board. Just think we need to give ourselves a bit more credit is all.
post #226 of 416
There is more pressure on women to look 'attractive' in culturally defined ways. We are valued more on our physicality.

I am not saying no woman would ever think to shave on her own or that shaving was invented by a man. I have no idea who thought the idea up. I definitely don't think it's 'human nature,' and the plastic surgery analogy was meant to explain that you can't take a specific practice (shaving/surgery/whatever) and make an argument that because humans naturally groom ourselves, that practice is natural. I think it's clear that shaving legs/underarms for women is a cultural practice, embedded with lots of cultural messages and meanings about beauty, the body, the feminine. Can't erase that fact with a 'grooming is natural' argument.
post #227 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
Ah but see it isn't heavier on one gender it just so happens one gender has more pressure to look a certain way via society than the other. Yet both genders do feel the pull to appear more appealing, do they not?

I am not talking plastic surgery or the like (in my PP I acknowledged the extremes and said they are always present) I am talking the basic human desire. No specifics, again just the basic human desire. There is a difference between this and cultural specific practices. It's "I want to look good" vs "I want to look good and will accomplish this by going up a bra size". I am referring to the former.

So no society does not dictate our wanting to look good or feel a certain way but it does give us the suggestion (to put it way lightly) of what that should entail. But I wouldn't say no woman would ever think to shave on her own or that shaving was obviously invented by a man etc etc. As it is obvious in our own society we as humans are capable of making our own fashion and grooming choices based on our own preferences and have done this for some time in our history on this earth. We can make up and have made up our own minds through out time. There is that AND there is that culture plays a part- however in varying degrees from person to person.

So one can't say it's all society. It's not. We do have the natural instinct there to want to look appealing and we have the individual thought of what that means. Is it possible for society to dictate that for us? Yup! Doesn't mean it is the case across the board. Just think we need to give ourselves a bit more credit is all.
Yep. and to the bolded - even the women who don't share are doing what they think is appealing. thisnext said herself she thinks its sexy. and there are some societies where not shaving is the norm, it's what is "desirable" there are also men who have fetishes for women who don't shave.

In a yahoos answer thing a guy said "Isn't it weird that only in the U.S. do women shave off their sexiest feature?" in reference to armpit hair.

(I realize his statement wasnt accurate - but he obviously thinks armpit hair is a woman's sexiest feature - and there are many men who have fetishes like this and probably many women ho dont shave to serve this fetish. doesn't mean all women who dont shave are tryng to appeal to them though ya know?)
post #228 of 416
Beautification is a natural inclination, though, and hair removal methods and tools being used as a part of beautification efforts go just about as far back into human history as history itself. Any particular cultural context is relevant, but the practice can't be laid at the feet of a single cultural context.
post #229 of 416
So you don't believe we have in us the drive to look more appealing- whatever that may entail? Because I think it's pretty obvious we do. You are being too literal and looking for the exact connection between human nature and specific beauty practices. Not what I was saying at all.I am not saying shaving=human nature. I am saying a desire to look appealing=human nature and for some that means shaving (or whatever else). So it's really not a leap to say that humans came up with the different guises of "attractiveness" all on their own and not because of big bad society. It obviously later became societal but again that in no way means it's all society all the time.

We all want to look and feel our best. This is at our core. Saying that does not mean I am saying a tummy tuck is at our core
post #230 of 416
lol look what I found on google:

The shaving of hair has sometimes been used in attempts to eradicate lice or to minimize body odor due to accumulation of odor-causing micro-organisms in hair.
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Hair_removal
post #231 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liquesce View Post
Beautification is a natural inclination, though, and hair removal methods and tools being used as a part of beautification efforts go just about as far back into human history as history itself. Any particular cultural context is relevant, but the practice can't be laid at the feet of a single cultural context.
post #232 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
I am saying a desire to look appealing=human nature and for some that means shaving (or whatever else).
yes and animals do this too. both sexes want to be appealing to the opposite sex to attract them and reproduce. of course we are a bit more complex then that now, but it's still that "animal instinct" even those who don't shave (at least some) have said they think not shaving is sexy and some men think women not shaving is sexy so they want to look appealing, in whatever way they think appealing is. Or smell appealing. even if its just so they dont make themselves pass out
post #233 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommysarah5 View Post
yes and animals do this too. both sexes want to be appealing to the opposite sex to attract them and reproduce. of course we are a bit more complex then that now, but it's still that "animal instinct" even those who don't shave (at least some) have said they think not shaving is sexy and some men think women not shaving is sexy so they want to look appealing, in whatever way they think appealing is. Or smell appealing. even if its just so they dont make themselves pass out
Exactly.
post #234 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
So you don't believe we have in us the drive to look more appealing- whatever that may entail? Because I think it's pretty obvious we do. You are being too literal and looking for the exact connection between human nature and specific beauty practices. Not what I was saying at all.I am not saying shaving=human nature. I am saying a desire to look appealing=human nature and for some that means shaving (or whatever else). So it's really not a leap to say that humans came up with the different guises of "attractiveness" all on their own and not because of big bad society. It obviously later became societal but again that in no way means it's all society all the time.

We all want to look and feel our best. This is at our core. Saying that does not mean I am saying a tummy tuck is at our core
I think:

- It is hard to know what about our desire to look appealing is human nature vs. a culture that prioritizes it heartily

- Even if desire to look appealing is human 'nature,' yes it is a giant leap to say humans came up with something like shaving or tummy tucks all on our own separate from the cultures in which we live.

- Looking and feeling our best are two separate things, and the impact that our looks have on our feelings is heavily influenced by culture.

You are looking to separate out the cultural element to somehow justify these things as just being human nature. It doesn't work like that, behaviour is not just natural and uninfluenced by culture, especially not behaviour connected to 'beauty' in a world where we are surrounded by billboards and all the rest of it, the messages and cultural constructs around beauty and physicality which are far too involved to attempt to even list.
post #235 of 416
more interesting research shows that underarm hair should help "wick away" sweat and prevent the bacteria causing odor. Maybe because I wear tank tops and the odor is just wicked away back onto my skin instead of onto a shirt I can take off is why I have the smell? IDK but I dont care if I have underarm hair or not (looks wise) so im just doing by what gets the odor gone. lol.
post #236 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by thismama View Post
I think:

- It is hard to know what about our desire to look appealing is human nature vs. a culture that prioritizes it heartily
No it's not. It's human nature. Now what I think you are referring to is specific appearance (say tan skin and a perky C cup). THAT is societal not our basic desire to look appealing.
Quote:
- Even if desire to look appealing is human 'nature,' yes it is a giant leap to say humans came up with something like shaving or tummy tucks all on our own separate from the cultures in which we live.
Yet it had to begin somewhere, did it not? Society is not a separate being that creates things all on it's own.
Quote:
- Looking and feeling our best are two separate things, and the impact that our looks have on our feelings is heavily influenced by culture.
When I said looking and feeling our best I was referring to appearance and grooming. An example is I don't feel good when I don't shave not because I view myself as less appealing but because I am more itchy, hot, etc. I brush my teeth because it helps me maintain a good feeling. The two are not always separate though and not always based on society's expectations. I do not meet society's standards when it comes to looks but when I look good FOR ME I do feel better.
Quote:
You are looking to separate out the cultural element to somehow justify these things as just being human nature.
Justification? Why would I need to justify these things but relating them to human nature. For one they are what they are and for two they are extremely personal.
Quote:
t doesn't work like that, behaviour is not just natural and uninfluenced by culture, especially not behaviour connected to 'beauty' in a world where we are surrounded by billboards and all the rest of it, the messages and cultural constructs around beauty and physicality which are far too involved to attempt to even list.
And I have acknowledged that society does play a role. But to say it is ALL society is as off base as saying it couldn't possibly involve human nature. Again this really does vary from person to person, culture to culture. However we are giving society a lot of credit when we blame it all exclusively on it.
post #237 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommysarah5 View Post
more interesting research shows that underarm hair should help "wick away" sweat and prevent the bacteria causing odor. Maybe because I wear tank tops and the odor is just wicked away back onto my skin instead of onto a shirt I can take off is why I have the smell? IDK but I dont care if I have underarm hair or not (looks wise) so im just doing by what gets the odor gone. lol.
I have my theories about this in relation to MY underarm hair (and BTW underarm hair on a woman is sooooo sexy and I have grown mine out a number of times before just having to get rid of it )- I have the type of hair that just sucks everything in. Now shouldn't this be different for underarm hair? It doesn't seem to be the case for me. I'm the type that jumps into a body of water and comes up for air and my hair is still dry in most places. :
post #238 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
And I have acknowledged that society does play a role. But to say it is ALL society is as off base as saying it couldn't possibly involve human nature. Again this really does vary from person to person, culture to culture. However we are giving society a lot of credit when we blame it all exclusively on it.
Society does have a habit of trying to over rule people's nature. That's why "dresses are for girls". Because society doesn't want to accept that some boys, even straight, masculin boys who know their boyness better then some adults naturally want to wear dresses.
post #239 of 416
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
Society does have a habit of trying to over rule people's nature. That's why "dresses are for girls". Because society doesn't want to accept that some boys, even straight, masculin boys who know their boyness better then some adults naturally want to wear dresses.
Ah but not in every culture and not in every time which just furthers my point. It has to start somewhere and each culture has evolved differently.

Oh but I do also agree Just saying we can think outside of society
post #240 of 416
We can, but it's much harder.
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