mamas who don't shave~ what will you tell your dd and will you/do you allow shaving? - Page 13

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by MusicianDad

We can, but it's much harder.

Agreed.

[MusicianDad]

Originally Posted by magstphil

Agreed.

Just want to make it clear. I have no desire to wear a dress. I do get my nails done and shave my legs though. I only shave because DD really wanted to learn how and I kept doing it because it got me all kinds of nice attention from DH.

[RoseRedHoofbeats]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I haven't shaved my legs in I don't know how long, and even longer since I did it on a regular basis. When I moved out at 17, razors became a luxury item.

When my DD wants to shave, I'll get her some shaving cream and a good razor, and tell her to have it. It's her body and her hair, and I know that when I was a younger teenager I was teased because I didn't shave my legs, so I did it for a few years before I decided it was way more hassle then it was worth. I'm relatively sure the nicks and razor burn and general pain in the ass it is will convince her much better than anything I could ever tell her. Shaving is just not a hill I want to die on.

~Rose

[KristaDJ]

Originally Posted by magstphil

Ah but not all men like shaved women. But we're not talking about *all* men we are talking about society's expectations of us and it was stated way back in the thread that society is trying to make us little girls. Well how does that work when society is bushing full breast and a nice bum? It doesn't.

Actually the person who stated that men like big boobs seemed to be talking about all men, so I was just clarifying. I'm well aware that not all men like shaved women as my own husband finds women who are shaved to be disturbing.
I do understand the conflict you are pointing out b/w the idea that men want us to look like little girls and the fact that so many men like huge boobs. I think the thing is that they DON'T want us to appear as children, they want us to appear as young teenagers; young and naive and virginal but with perky breasts, rounds bottoms and not much by way of pubic hair. The ones who want really big boobs are not the majority they are fetishist, and honestly I think it stems from this country's lack of breastfeeding. They seem to need breasts that appear to be engorged with milk I think men in america are, for the most part, afraid of real women and that's why they find this teenager idea so attractive. A real woman who is confident in herself presents a great challenge to a man's power. I think a woman can have just as much power while waxing her entire body and getting breast implants and hair extensions, BUT the fact is that most women in america feel trapped by these ideals and that they have no choice but to try to measure up to them whether they enjoy these practices or not.

[PPK]

Originally Posted by churndash

I think it would be a tricky discussion.

Telling a young girl "I don't shave because I think it's silly, infantilizing, a waste of your time and a symbol of male oppression but hey, you do whatever you want, it's your choice" isn't really giving them a choice, is it?

I mean, reading these posts it's very easy to pick up on the strong feelings people have, and I would think that daughters would want to comply with those feelings to please mom, even if they weren't really sure they believed them.

At least I can speak for myself and say that I often worry about detangling my children's true desires from their desire to please me, if that makes sense.

Ideally, the subject could be discussed neutrally. "Some women shave for X, Y, Z reason, some women don't for X, Y, Z reason."

But I wouldn't use judging words like "silly' and "infantilizing" as the reasons - I think that sort of language would make the daughter feel guilty if she wants to shave.

Well said!

[sisteeesmama]

Originally Posted by thismama

You can't use a nature argument to justify a culturally specific practice tho. It is as illogical as making the same argument for something like breast implants, for example. It's human nature to groom ergo ______ practice is just natural.

The specifics of what is considered beautiful/necessary for people to do, and whether it falls more heavily on one gender than another, the importance placed upon practices, is highly cultural. It is not just human nature.

LOL, this is what I was thinking, too

I am not trying to pick on Mag, but I don't think your arguman makes sense either. Just because throughout time people in some cultures have placed importance on grooming does not make it natural.

[sewchris2642]

Originally Posted by KristaDJ

Not all men like big boobs

So society and the media are wrong? If they are wrong about breasts, then, just maybe, they are also wrong about body hair.

[sisteeesmama]

Originally Posted by thismama

I think:

- It is hard to know what about our desire to look appealing is human nature vs. a culture that prioritizes it heartily

- Even if desire to look appealing is human 'nature,' yes it is a giant leap to say humans came up with something like shaving or tummy tucks all on our own separate from the cultures in which we live.

- Looking and feeling our best are two separate things, and the impact that our looks have on our feelings is heavily influenced by culture.

You are looking to separate out the cultural element to somehow justify these things as just being human nature. It doesn't work like that, behaviour is not just natural and uninfluenced by culture, especially not behaviour connected to 'beauty' in a world where we are surrounded by billboards and all the rest of it, the messages and cultural constructs around beauty and physicality which are far too involved to attempt to even list.

Of course all of this I agree with and then I add to that:
Even if it is just basic instinct, which I do not at all believe it is, I personally do not think that being led by human instinct is appropriate in a lot of situations (think war, murder, incest, abuse etc.)
I personally want to analyze why things are done and do things because I have considered them, not because instinctually women throughout time have thought it important to spend their time preening to find a mate.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by sisteeesmama

LOL, this is what I was thinking, too

I am not trying to pick on Mag, but I don't think your arguman makes sense either. Just because throughout time people in some cultures have placed importance on grooming does not make it natural.

Except I am not saying things like shaving= human instinct/nature/what have you I am saying the desire to look appealing is. That's what I kept posting over and over last night. I think some are just making too literal of a connection.

Even if it is just basic instinct, which I do not at all believe it is, I personally do not think that being led by human instinct is appropriate in a lot of situations (think war, murder, incest, abuse etc.)
I personally want to analyze why things are done and do things because I have considered them, not because instinctually women throughout time have thought it important to spend their time preening to find a mate.

I completely agree with this.

[1littlebit]

Originally Posted by magstphil

Except I am not saying things like shaving= human instinct/nature/what have you I am saying the desire to look appealing is. That's what I kept posting over and over last night. I think some are just making too literal of a connection.

i get what you are saying i think. the desire to be appealing is a part of human nature... some people shave b/c they feel that it makes them more appealing/ attractive. the same way some people wear make up, cologne, paint their fingernails, style their hair etc. the activities themselves aren't human nature... but the reasoning behind them is.

fwiw i think it is absolutely part of our nature to want to be attractive to potential mates... how else would our species survive? every animal has their own unique ways of doing the same thing.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

i get what you are saying i think. the desire to be appealing is a part of human nature... some people shave b/c they feel that it makes them more appealing/ attractive. the same way some people wear make up, cologne, paint their fingernails, style their hair etc. the activities themselves aren't human nature... but the reasoning behind them is.

fwiw i think it is absolutely part of our nature to want to be attractive to potential mates... how else would our species survive? every animal has their own unique ways of doing the same thing.

Yup!

Now how we go about it is something completely different.

[1littlebit]

i am not sure murder, war, incest, abuse etc are basic human instincts... i think the reasons people do it may be instinct based.. but the instinct is not the same as the action used to follow it. sorry... i am not sure how to say this.

war for instance. i think protecting our spouses and children are basic human instincts. if someone felt that their families were threatened the instinct to protect is natural. it is possible that people could be misguided or misinformed enough to believe that the best way to protect their families is war. the instinct itself has nothing to do with war... however, it is possible to use those instincts to fuel a war. does that make sense?

[benj]

I'm a guy and only have sons...but why would someone strictly disallow shaving? I mean, everyone knows that it's just for cosmetic reasons. And yeah, I do think it looks better but I wouldn't hold it against any women/girl if they didn't.

When I played sports, I used to shave my legs. No idea why.

[sisteeesmama]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

i am not sure murder, war, incest, abuse etc are basic human instincts... i think the reasons people do it may be instinct based.. but the instinct is not the same as the action used to follow it. sorry... i am not sure how to say this.

war for instance. i think protecting our spouses and children are basic human instincts. if someone felt that their families were threatened the instinct to protect is natural. it is possible that people could be misguided or misinformed enough to believe that the best way to protect their families is war. the instinct itself has nothing to do with war... however, it is possible to use those instincts to fuel a war. does that make sense?

yep, it does.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by 1littlebit

i am not sure murder, war, incest, abuse etc are basic human instincts... i think the reasons people do it may be instinct based.. but the instinct is not the same as the action used to follow it. sorry... i am not sure how to say this.

war for instance. i think protecting our spouses and children are basic human instincts. if someone felt that their families were threatened the instinct to protect is natural. it is possible that people could be misguided or misinformed enough to believe that the best way to protect their families is war. the instinct itself has nothing to do with war... however, it is possible to use those instincts to fuel a war. does that make sense?

It does to me because that is essentially what I am saying with desire to be appealing= human nature. I believe you are saying that war is not the instinct but the desire to protect is and that is what is used in war.

Then again I'd go further and say wanting to attain is the instinct, greed is that unchecked and greed is often times the driving force for those who start the wars and command the wars.

But as for the literal direct connection between war and instinct yes I see where you are coming from and have to agree.

Kind of like sex is an instinct. Rape, not so much.

[sisteeesmama]

Originally Posted by benj

I'm a guy and only have sons...but why would someone strictly disallow shaving? I mean, everyone knows that it's just for cosmetic reasons. And yeah, I do think it looks better but I wouldn't hold it against any women/girl if they didn't.

When I played sports, I used to shave my legs. No idea why.

So even though your preferrence as a man is that you like shaved women versus unshaved, you wouldn't at all let that preferrence affect your decision making when choosing to date a woman, hat is assuming you do date women obviously.

[sisteeesmama]

Originally Posted by magstphil

It does to me because that is essentially what I am saying with desire to be appealing= human nature. I believe you are saying that war is not the instinct but the desire to protect is and that is what is used in war.

Then again I'd go further and say wanting to attain is the instinct, greed is that unchecked and greed is often times the driving force for those who start the wars and command the wars.

But as for the literal direct connection between war and instinct yes I see where you are coming from and have to agree.

Kind of like sex is an instinct. Rape, not so much.

I actually think that if the argument of "we are all different and you don't know where another person is coming from" is true then you can't say that for the people who rape people (or anything else) that that does not come instinctually to them.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by sisteeesmama

So even though your preferrence as a man is that you like shaved women versus unshaved, you wouldn't at all let that preferrence affect your decision making when choosing to date a woman, hat is assuming you do date women obviously.

Obviously I am not him but I find this question interesting. Doesn't everyone essentially "settle" in one for or another with their mate or even date? I mean I love beards but my DH doesn't really grow facial hair.

I think it really depends on where one's priorities are. Is it a priority for someone to have a clean shaved woman? It may be but I think it's all relative really. Having a preference doesn't mean you automatically dismiss those who don't meet it (unless of course it's a huge deal to you- like if the potential mate/date smokes and that is just something you can't get past).

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by sisteeesmama

I actually think that if the argument of "we are all different and you don't know where another person is coming from" is true then you can't say that for the people who rape people (or anything else) that that does not come instinctually to them.

Ok you lost me a bit I think I know what you are saying but I am not sure.

I will use the rape example- I don't think it is instinct but I do think sometimes the sex instinct becomes so intense or so confused it becomes a "must have NOW!" thing. Of course not in every case and I am in no way trying to excuse rape (let's stop that being thrown at me before it is ) but I think that is what you were saying.

[holyhelianthus]

I guess in a nutshell I am trying to say instinct goes a bit crazy and gets crossed and that is why we do need to examine and question it and not just go with it which is why I agreed with your PP. Did that make any sense?