or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Parenting › Swedish parents decide not to reveal 2-year-old's gender-Thoughts??
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Swedish parents decide not to reveal 2-year-old's gender-Thoughts?? - Page 7

post #121 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by number572 View Post
ok, Help me see another way thru this then... b'c in my heart, I am a rebel and freedom fighter, I'd love to see this theory thru, but feel it unfair to the child at hand. He's only 2, so none of us know how Pop's parents will choose to introduce gender or when, for that matter - one of "our" line of thinking can guess that it would be somewhere within the pre-pubescent yrs. I'd guess anyway.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think alot can be taught by dealing with past societal issues during early childhood. I'm not a child psych, so I may be talking out of my ear, but something about hiding things has never sat right with me. Everyone is different tho... if this is what they want, I respect them as the parents and support them in full, even if I don't understand their thoughts yet - & I'm thankful that I'm reading such a progressive story... beats the heck out of opening a page to "parents decide that abuse is OK!!"
but who says they aren't doing that? they have already begun introducing body parts to the child. they CHILD will decide to introduce gender or when - the parents said it's POP's decision to make, not theirs. they aren't stopping Pop. Maybe Pop will tell the world when he is 3. who knows. we aren't waiting for what Pop's parents will do, we are waiting for what Pop will do. Pop's choice. Pop get's to decide whether or not their gender will be revealed - unlike my children who had me choose for them. Id be surprised if they weren't teaching Pop about societal issues through all of this.
post #122 of 199
I've always felt you are born with a certain gender.. unless you are one of the unique people born with both. Your gender is classified BY your "parts". Ultimately, it's their child, and their decision. I just would never do it to my children. Everyone is different!
post #123 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommysarah5 View Post
but who says they aren't doing that? they have already begun introducing body parts to the child. they CHILD will decide to introduce gender or when - the parents said it's POP's decision to make, not theirs. they aren't stopping Pop. Maybe Pop will tell the world when he is 3. who knows. we aren't waiting for what Pop's parents will do, we are waiting for what Pop will do. Pop's choice. Pop get's to decide whether or not their gender will be revealed - unlike my children who had me choose for them. Id be surprised if they weren't teaching Pop about societal issues through all of this.

You are waiting for Pop's choices? Are you sure about that? Think about that & then think about what "pop" will want 25 yrs from today
post #124 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommysarah5 View Post
give me an example.
I don't have strong feelings on this issue one way or the other, but because I happened to notice it earlier as I was browsing this thread, and because you're specifically asking for an example now, I can't help but point out that you used "it" earlier in the thread when talking about Pop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mommysarah5 View Post
but the child DOES have a say in the matter. the child gets to pick its clothes every morning if its "boys" clothes or "girls" clothes and they teach the child about anatomy and will allow the child to reveal their gender if/when they want to.
post #125 of 199
I don't know..
but somehow it almost borderlines child abuse..
I mean.. they are deciding for this child at this moment
in any case..

and who knows if that child will share their views in the future.

I for one would be entirely upset for my parents to confuse
me from early on and I think it would majorly contributed
to some sort of problems.

we are not living in a vacum and so it sound to me
more like a problem then solution at this time for this very
particular child.
post #126 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by BellaClaudia View Post
I don't know..
but somehow it almost borderlines child abuse..
I mean.. they are deciding for this child at this moment
in any case..

and who knows if that child will share their views in the future.

I for one would be entirely upset for my parents to confuse
me from early on and I think it would majorly contributed
to some sort of problems.

we are not living in a vacum and so it sound to me
more like a problem then solution at this time for this very
particular child.
Except they aren't deciding for the child. Every other child is born and assigned either 'Boy' or 'Girl'. Pop isn't being assigned. Pop will be the one who decides in the end if Pop is a boy or a girl.
post #127 of 199
Oh man, this cracks me up because, really, do anyone's children really wear clothes enough of the time to make this work? I think my daughter is out of her clothes more often than she is in them...

but then again, I live in California where it is both sunny and liberal about such things...
post #128 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by BellaClaudia View Post
I don't know..
but somehow it almost borderlines child abuse..
I mean.. they are deciding for this child at this moment
in any case..

and who knows if that child will share their views in the future.

I for one would be entirely upset for my parents to confuse
me from early on and I think it would majorly contributed
to some sort of problems.

we are not living in a vacum and so it sound to me
more like a problem then solution at this time for this very
particular child.
I agree. For me and my beliefs at least, we are born girl or boy so the whole 'keeping it a secret' is just nonsense to me.
post #129 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by limabean View Post
I don't have strong feelings on this issue one way or the other, but because I happened to notice it earlier as I was browsing this thread, and because you're specifically asking for an example now, I can't help but point out that you used "it" earlier in the thread when talking about Pop.
yes but I would do that even with my own children in that scenario.

"My children get to pick their clothes"
"My child gets to pick it's clothes"
"My cat sure loves it's cat toy" (my cat doesn't even have a name)

In the example you use, I reference Pop as Pop.
post #130 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by number572 View Post
You are waiting for Pop's choices? Are you sure about that? Think about that & then think about what "pop" will want 25 yrs from today
I think Pop will want 2 parents who loved them no matter what, and I think thats what Pop will have.

There are plenty of things parents do that kids don't like 25 years later. Sometimes a parent vaccinates a child, and 25 years later they wish they had never been vaccinated. Sometimes a parent doesnt vaccinate, and 25 years later they wish they had.

The difference is the ability to take back or not. At least Pop can reveal their gender if they don't like the parents decision for it to be secret.
post #131 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by BellaClaudia View Post
I mean.. they are deciding for this child at this moment
in any case..

and who knows if that child will share their views in the future.
That could be said for any parenting choice any parent makes. That could be said even to those of who do reveal which body parts are between our children's legs. maybe even more so. but anything you do as a parent you are deciding in that moment. In this case, they are NOT deciding. They are waiting. Waiting for Pop to decide. Who knows if YOUR child will share YOUR views in the future?
post #132 of 199
I think it is interesting. I admire their desire and commitment to allow their child to develop without being put in a box.

The article didn't answer all of the questions that I had though. I wish it would have had more comments from the parents about how they live.

I wonder if they totally avoid using gender specific pronouns for other people they encounter unless the person actually self-identifies to Pop "I'm a boy" or "I'm a woman"? Do they deny the use of all gender specific pronouns even if people do identify as a specific gender?
I wonder if they are teaching Pop not to refer to other people they encounter as she or he based on appearance or mannerisms? If they are only applying gender neutrality to Pop I wonder if that makes the child feel confused or odd... an outsider?
Do they refer to themselves as "your parent" rather than mother/father to avoid assigning gender to certain tasks or roles?



I do not think bringing up the case of a boy whose penis was cut off and raised as a girl was relevant or fair of the article's author. The parents in this case aren't cutting parts off and telling their child that he is a she.
post #133 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by hollytheteacher View Post
The truth is that there (is evidence out there) that there ARE in fact several biological differences in males vs. females in all sort of ways. We are not born genderless just like we are not born race-less.
Biological differences between races that have been scientifically determined have little to do with anything beyond hair, skin and eye color.
Quote:
Human beings have very low genetic variability. Probably the entire species is descended from a single family that lived about 200,000 years ago.
Most (85%) of our genetic variation is within populations rather than among them, even when different sequences of DNA (or proteins) are examined (Barbujani et al., 1997 ). Statistical divisions of humanity based on different kinds of genetic data do not group people consistently into races (Romualdi, 2002 ).
Many of the genetic distinctions among races are based on commonness versus rarity of certain alleles (forms of a gene), but the same alleles are usually found in all human populations. There are very few alleles (such as the one that causes Tay-Sachs disease) or genetic markers that are found only in one race, and those tend to be fairly rare within that race.
Among the few genes that vary consistently between populations is the one believed to have the greatest effect on skin, hair, and eye color: MC1R (Ranaa et al., 1999 ).
The greatest physical and genetic diversity among humans is among the people who live in Africa today (Relethford and Harpending, 1994 ).
This [differences between hair, skin and eye color] is relatively meaningless compared with the poignant biological differences between males and females.
Quote:
Claiming that women and men are naturally different can of course be controversial, as Larry Summers, former President of Harvard University, discovered. But a claim of natural sex differences is far less politically controversial than any similar claim about race, and it seems to many of us, such as Summers' apologist William Saletan, scientifically defensible too: "Sex is easily the biggest physical difference within a species. Men and women, unlike blacks and whites, have different organs and body designs."

Quote:
Originally Posted by hollytheteacher View Post
This "movement" reminds of the same group of people who say things like "race doesn't matter" instead of embracing and celebrating both similarities and differences.
How about you rephrase "race doesn't matter" (and "gender doesn't matter") with "regardless of inherent biological differences between humans, we should all be treated equally." We should all have equal rights and opportunities regardless of race- the same goes for gender.


It seems to me that you are equivocating biological and socially constructed differences between races and genders: This is not going to get you a balanced view or accurate information. Start with the biological differences (and lack thereof), and then move to cultural bias and social constructs.
post #134 of 199
I think an important point to make is that they do hide the gender from pop's environment, not so from pop. Pop has body parts known to him/her which he/she can identify with as self' and being a certasin 'sexe'. Only pop will find out in his/her own time what gender she/he is. And will ask questions about this in the near future anyway ('what's this?' cfr. body parts). Probably will start asking questions about the way people (male and female) dress in her environment. Imo, the 'secret' is only there to other people to avoid them adressing the child in a gender specific way. I personally think it's great of the parenjt's to make a well-thought effort do create this neutral setting for their child. This is elf-determination for the child as when to discover and decide to reveal gender, and only later experience gender-specific treatment by environment but not immediately by birth. I do not think such a way will prevent pop from finding out his/her true 'innate' gender, since I believe part of gender is biologically and genetically determined, and a lot of what is attached to gender nowadays is culturally and artificially determined. I do not think it will be harmful for the child since gender won't be kept a secret from him/her.

Personally, I have always resented the gender-specific treatment of people in society, and it starts as early as they pop (pun not intended ) out at birth (or even before that...). And I have tried to at least stick to gender neutrality/non-comformity cfr. my young children to a certain extent, but I see that even in our family, due to societal norms, and cultural norms, and even due to my own 'accustomed' behaviours/habits/thinking/learned gender specific customs, it's been only succesful for a tiny tiny little bit. As in that pink is a colour for everyone, glitter can be liked by anyone, boys and girls ae free to enjoy any play they want, people of all genders are allowed to cry, rough play and sweetness can appear in both genders, hairstyle's gender specificness is only a societal norm not shared by everyone or every culture, and similar. I also try to make them be conscious about their own language when being judgingly genderspecific, and let us realise what we are saying, and if such is really true, by adjusting texts I'm reading when too gender 'specific' examples that are plain sexist, imo. Etc.
post #135 of 199
I've been thinking further on this: Can you imagine the pressure on Pop whenever s/he decides to reveal his/her sex to the world? Or the social ridicule that Pop will endure because of his/her parents' wishes? I just could not do this to my child.
post #136 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuamami View Post
Now though, as a mother, and being 15 years older, I have to totally disagree. I think this is just distracting from real feminism. Androgyny is just not workable, or preferable for most people. We are biologically programmed to have a gender, and it's gratifying to satisfy our gender expectations. I don't see how hiding one child's gender really contributes to less domestic violence, or more family leave time, or equal pay for equal work, or any of the very real issues that exist and need to be addressed by feminism. But maybe they're past all that in Sweden?
:
post #137 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by ernalala View Post
I think an important point to make is that they do hide the gender from pop's environment, not so from pop. Pop has body parts known to him/her which he/she can identify with as self' and being a certasin 'sexe'. Only pop will find out in his/her own time what gender she/he is. And will ask questions about this in the near future anyway ('what's this?' cfr. body parts).
So gender isn't being kept a secret from him/her - but at two and a half is this child being forced to keep it a secret as well? It seems that by that age kids know and talk about it no? Mine does...
post #138 of 199
We really have no idea what girls/boys would naturally gravitate towards, no clue at all. We have never been allowed to just be who we are w/o the trappings of gender stereotypes many that seem obviously arbitrary.
We have absolutely no concept of how many children would easily and naturally fall into their assigned gender role. I do know it's complete HELL for many who don't fit so easily. And many more don't even get they aren't being allowed to truly be themselves. The brainwashing of gender roles starts well from the start.
Now I wish I could never do that to my children unfortunately that's impossible.
post #139 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swan3 View Post
So gender isn't being kept a secret from him/her - but at two and a half is this child being forced to keep it a secret as well? It seems that by that age kids know and talk about it no? Mine does...
Yeah, I wonder this, too. I don't know when it starts but I know at 3 or so my son (who I have mentioned before has long hair) would meet other kids and would sometimes be asked "Are you a boy or a girl?"

Unless they completely shield this child from other children, it's going to come up - and what is he/she supposed to say, it's a secret? Which is just going to rile a bunch of kids up and depending on the age it happens at - well some of them might just try to check it out for themselves, which could be pretty traumatic.

Of course grown-ups will ask, too, and while they won't go so far (hopefully) as to strip the child to check... I can see lots of awkward "OK well isn't that interesting! *nice to meet you I'm going to move to the other side of the room now*" responses.
post #140 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommysarah5 View Post
just because some people want to be obnoxiously rude and call Pop and "it" doesn't mean they have to. That's their choice, could be done to ANY child in the same situations (minus the hidden gender) and is a poor reflection of that person and not the parents who are merely encouraging people to treat Pop for who they are instead of for what gender society assigns to their body parts.

Calling Pop and "it" is simply unnecessary. It's a choice one makes that they do not have to. If Pop is called "it" more then other children its because of that person's ignorance, not the short comings of Pop's parents.
"It" is the gender neutral pronoun. It's the right pronoun to use for an ungendered person. It's not rude, it's grammar.

Quote:
We really have no idea what girls/boys would naturally gravitate towards, no clue at all. We have never been allowed to just be who we are w/o the trappings of gender stereotypes many that seem obviously arbitrary.
This may have been true 20 years ago, but what modern, thoughtful parent doesn't at least toy with the idea that boys and girls are the same, and give their one year old child a doll and a train, and possibly excessively push the non-traditional toy more. I know I did, even though I know that those stereotypes are mostly correct because of biology, I wanted to make sure that I wasn't imposing things on my children.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Parenting
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Parenting › Swedish parents decide not to reveal 2-year-old's gender-Thoughts??