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Swedish parents decide not to reveal 2-year-old's gender-Thoughts?? - Page 8

post #141 of 199
Our world is so far from being gender neutral or just open minded about gender. And giving a boy a doll and a girl a train is not even close to being gender neutral. Just because more parents today will allow their sons a dolls does not mean gender stereotypes aren't being pushed. I just love how giving a boy a doll and then he doesn't play with it much means gender stereotypes are all true. That might work (well for that particular boy) if gender roles/stereotypes aren't forced and reinforced daily. It's a very cemented aspect of our culture and it is every where right in your face and also more subtle, you really can't escape it.

The fact these modern and progressive parents know the gender stereotypes are true but feel they must at least offer a choice to their children anyway is very telling (and their children know it too).
post #142 of 199
Are there any societies throughout all of history that don't distiguish between gender? Somehow I don't see this as a "modern evil" but rather the way people/societies are made/meant to be . . .

As far as this specific case goes, I agree with those who think it's distasteful for parents to use their kids for their own political/social purposes. Blech.
post #143 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by LavenderMae View Post
Our world is so far from being gender neutral or just open minded about gender. And giving a boy a doll and a girl a train is not even close to being gender neutral. Just because more parents today will allow their sons a dolls does not mean gender stereotypes aren't being pushed. I just love how giving a boy a doll and then he doesn't play with it much means gender stereotypes are all true. That might work (well for that particular boy) if gender roles/stereotypes aren't forced and reinforced daily. It's a very cemented aspect of our culture and it is every where right in your face and also more subtle, you really can't escape it.
Absolutely, and again, we return to research that indicates that as soon as gender has been determined, there are subtle differences in how we parent our children (how much we talk to our kids, whether we rub or pat them, etc.).
post #144 of 199
I don't see what the big deal is. Yeah, it's different, and I guess that makes it weird to so many people. But as long as Pop isn't instructed to answer "its a secret" when asked if a boy or girl, I don't see how it's a problem. Pop will eventually be exposed to gender sterotyping, when he or she is ready to identify with a particular gender. Gender doesn't (or shouldn't) matter to a 2yo.
To me, people are people. People should do what makes them happy, whatever that may be. No one should feel like they have to avoid something that they like because they have the "wrong" sexual organ, skin color, etc. I wish there were no constraints forced upon people by society. That's just my opinion, so what Pop's parents are doing really isn't weird to me. I think it's cool.
post #145 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by eloise24 View Post
Are there any societies throughout all of history that don't distiguish between gender? Somehow I don't see this as a "modern evil" but rather the way people/societies are made/meant to be . . .

As far as this specific case goes, I agree with those who think it's distasteful for parents to use their kids for their own political/social purposes. Blech.
I agree! I think that gender roles can be utilitarian and helpful (you hunt, I gather) as well as limiting (hunting is superior to gathering). I agree that attitudes toward gender can be problematic but, looking from the broader perspective of history, as a whole, we've made huge strides toward sloffing off these connotations. Are we anywhere near perfection? Of course not, but we're closer than we were. I also don't think that androgyny is perfection but rather acceptance of people living out their lives in ways that are emotionally beneficial to them, and acceptance that gender can have a myriad ways of expressing itself within individuals, some of which are superior in some circumstances, some of which are superior in other circumstances, and some of which are neutral.

In this particular case, as I've stated in a pp, my main concern is for the child here. I just can't imagine how awkward and psychologically difficult it will be when the child becomes aware of this "experiment" of his/her parents. When s/he finally makes known to the world whether s/he is a boy or girl . . . well, that is just going to be emotionally difficult, I would think. I can just hear the taunts, the ridicule, the raised eyebrows, the murmurs of, "Well, we've been wondering what you were all this time . . ." That's just a lot of baggage to add onto the baggage of just everyday living. I guess I wouldn't mind it if the parents themselves decided to keep their own genders secret from the world (even though from my own perspective I would find that silly), but to impose this upon a child is manipulation for a political purpose. As parents we must all make decisions for our children, but this one is far more encompassing than whether or not to breastfeed or vaccinate, and one that I think will cause much greater damage.
post #146 of 199
The first thing asked when a baby is born is "is it a boy or a girl" and then we make judgments based on that. "Oh, they got their girl." or "oh, boys are harder!"... I do it myself. It is ingrained!

Our midwives encouraged us to look and see the sex of our baby when she was born and said that people often forget to look while they are falling in love with him/her. It is often a grandparent who says, "well, what is it?"

I wonder how we would be if it didn't matter what was in our pants? I think this couple is right on.
post #147 of 199
I did not read through all 8 pages of discussion. But this reminds me of the Story of Baby X...if anyone has read that.
post #148 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommysarah5 View Post
yes but I would do that even with my own children in that scenario.

"My children get to pick their clothes"
"My child gets to pick it's clothes"
"My cat sure loves it's cat toy" (my cat doesn't even have a name)

In the example you use, I reference Pop as Pop.
Really? I don't think so, I think almost everyone would say "his" or "her." But, okay...

ETA: I'm not trying to pick on you over this. I think for most people the "it" thing is not ill-intended, it's just a function of our language's limitations and since there's no universally accepted, nonoffensive substitute, it just happens sometimes that people use "it" to reference a person.

But your above example of "My child gets to pick it's clothes" would sound really weird to my ear if I heard you say that about your kid IRL, so maybe the people who annoy you by saying "it" just have similar personal grammar usage to yourself, and don't mean anything by it, and would even say it about their own kids.
post #149 of 199
I feel like the poor kid is doomed to have serious identity and gender issues. How will he/she even know what gender to identify with? It is completely bizarre and over the top.
post #150 of 199

This judgement from MDC moms??

I'm really surprised at the number of people here who are so vehemently against what Pop's parents are doing.

They might have a socio/political agenda, but so what? They are obviously doing what they think is best for their child, too. Wouldn't you do the same for your child??

Seriously, how is this any different from what many of you

you here at MDC

you moms right here in this thread

do TO your children?


If you choose not to vaccinate your child you have an agenda. If you choose to birth your child at home, unassisted by medical practitioners you have an agenda, and many people think it's wrong and that you are unneccessarily risking your child's life and your own life. If you choose to educate your child at home you have an agenda, and many people think you're doing your children a disservice by hiding them away from 'the real world', and your child is going to be odd, unsocialized and is going to resent you when they become adults. If you choose to breastfeed your child, you have an agenda. For pity's sake, if you choose to use cloth diapers you have an agenda.

How in the world is this any different from not vaccinating your child? Not vaccinating your child has risk, you are risking your child's very life, and frankly you are risking the lives of everyone around you. This is a far more serious issue than how this child's gender perception will affect him or her.

How in the world is this different and more harmful than not circumcising your children?

Is what Pop's parents doing any worse than not being married to the parent of your child?

How many of you claim have gotten a hard time from inlaws, friends and co-workers for your Natural Family Living choices?

Truly, this thread astounds me.

I misunderstood, Pop is not the child's real name but is the name used in the interview with the child's parents. Cute name, though.
post #151 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swan3 View Post
It seems that by that age kids know and talk about it no? Mine does...
My 2.5 year old never talks about her gender. But when meeting people she say, 'Hi, my name's Fia, what's your name? I love you!'

She certainly knows she's a girl, she doesn't seem to find that to be the most important thing to discuss. Pop certainly knows what his/her gender is, it's just not advertised to appease the desires of strangers.
post #152 of 199
While I agree with the parents intention I would think the execution of their plan on their own child would actually put way more emphasis on gender than most 2 year olds would ever experience and I am not sure if that is healthy either.
post #153 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by limabean View Post
Really? I don't think so, I think almost everyone would say "his" or "her." But, okay...

ETA: I'm not trying to pick on you over this. I think for most people the "it" thing is not ill-intended, it's just a function of our language's limitations and since there's no universally accepted, nonoffensive substitute, it just happens sometimes that people use "it" to reference a person.

But your above example of "My child gets to pick it's clothes" would sound really weird to my ear if I heard you say that about your kid IRL, so maybe the people who annoy you by saying "it" just have similar personal grammar usage to yourself, and don't mean anything by it, and would even say it about their own kids.
really, it just depends on who I am talking to

the whole point was someone is saying this kid is going to be called "it" more and that is detrimental for the parent to put the child in that situation - and the reality is, any child whose gender is so far unknown could be called it or they. And if the person walks up to ask, they can just say "This is Pop." as they do. In which case, gender is no longer necessary to refer to them.

And to the poster who said they shouldn't make Pop say its a secret - its been pointed out several times that as it states in the article, Pop can share gender if they want, when they want, and is being taught about both male and female anatomy and physical differences between the bodies. It's not like the child is being sheltered from the bodily differences between man and woman. Pop is just being treated as Pop instead of as boy or girl.
post #154 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Purity♥Lake~ View Post
My 2.5 year old never talks about her gender. But when meeting people she say, 'Hi, my name's Fia, what's your name? I love you!'

She certainly knows she's a girl, she doesn't seem to find that to be the most important thing to discuss. Pop certainly knows what his/her gender is, it's just not advertised to appease the desires of strangers.
post #155 of 199
Quote:
I'm really surprised at the number of people here who are so vehemently against what Pop's parents are doing.
I haven't seen this vehemence of which you speak. I personally said that the whole thing doesn't sit quite right with me, for reasons I can't pinpoint exactly. I don't think that's vehement, though.....

And just because we're all MDC moms, doesn't mean we have to feel exactly the same way on the same issues. Does it??
post #156 of 199
I think the article is great!

Conversation w ds

Me-Are you a boy?
Caie-No
Me-Are you a girl?
Caie-No
Me-Are you Caie?
Caie-No
Me-What are you?
Caie-Me...not sure

I LOVE an almost three year old's perspective!
post #157 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxPerpetua View Post
I just can't imagine how awkward and psychologically difficult it will be when the child becomes aware of this "experiment" of his/her parents. When s/he finally makes known to the world whether s/he is a boy or girl . . . well, that is just going to be emotionally difficult, I would think. I can just hear the taunts, the ridicule, the raised eyebrows, the murmurs of, "Well, we've been wondering what you were all this time . . ."
If that happened, it isn't the family that's :-up

Seriously, it's not like Pop'll be 35 and holding a press conference to proclaim their gender. The denouement will be more likely to be between age 3 and 6 and will consist of something as exciting as announcing "I'm a ___! Mommy is a girl! Daddy is a boy! We have a boy kitty. We have a girl doggy. I like icecream." to a store clerk. And then Pop's parents'll start using pronouns to refer to their child instead of always saying "Pop" when speaking in the third person.

You know what Pop's playgroup friends think of the whole thing? "Hey, Pop is wearing a dress today. It's blue!"
post #158 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by anyalily View Post

I wonder how we would be if it didn't matter what was in our pants? I think this couple is right on.
It's not just in your pants, it's in your brain structure and chemistry, that's the point.

Quote:
I feel like the poor kid is doomed to have serious identity and gender issues. How will he/she even know what gender to identify with? It is completely bizarre and over the top.
I think they'll be fine so long as they forget their gender was this big shameful thing to be scared of. Gender identity is inborn, it'll be feminine or masculine or neither, depending what its brain chemistry tells it it is.
post #159 of 199
Quote:
I feel like the poor kid is doomed to have serious identity and gender issues. How will he/she even know what gender to identify with? It is completely bizarre and over the top.
You see here's the thing... All the physical differences in the world doesn't change the facts that 1) People treat boys different from girls and 2) One's physical gender is seperate from ones psychological gender.

There are people all around the world who are being thrust into a "gender" based on what they physically have. "He has a penis so he's a guy" "She has vulva so she's a girl". They are treated like their physical gender, assigned behaviours and likes and dislikes based on their gender. These people have difficulties because of it. Because society cannot accept the fact that boy's don't need to identify with the male gender and girls don't need to identify with the female gender.

Pop is, for the time being, not going to have the issue of people assuming Pop is going to identify with male or females. Pop will identify with the gender they are most comfortable identifying with. Without pressure from the outside. I know one person who would have given anything to beable to grow up with that freedom because her physical self tells her to identify with one gender and her emotional and psychological self tells her to identify with the other gender.
post #160 of 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicianDad View Post
You see here's the thing... All the physical differences in the world doesn't change the facts that 1) People treat boys different from girls and 2) One's physical gender is seperate from ones psychological gender.

There are people all around the world who are being thrust into a "gender" based on what they physically have. "He has a penis so he's a guy" "She has vulva so she's a girl". They are treated like their physical gender, assigned behaviours and likes and dislikes based on their gender. These people have difficulties because of it. Because society cannot accept the fact that boy's don't need to identify with the male gender and girls don't need to identify with the female gender.

Pop is, for the time being, not going to have the issue of people assuming Pop is going to identify with male or females. Pop will identify with the gender they are most comfortable identifying with. Without pressure from the outside.
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