Please help me with Bible verse - Page 2

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by BonnieNova

Preggie you opened up a whole new issue that I wasn't aware of.

If you don't believe in taking away privileges, may I ask how you "discipline"your child? I'm trying to come up with a plan that is good for our family, and to be honest, that was one of the ways I was planning on "disciplining".

Now that you mention it, I am very curious about other methods...

when i read preggie's post, i didn't see the issue of privileges being removed as the main concern. rather, it seemed like her parents were abusive to her both emotionally and mentally. they were hurtful on purpose & she didn't feel unconditional love or acceptance in her home (at least that's how i perceived the post). i think you can destroy a person without ever laying a finger on them. it made me so sad to read her post

in our home, my children certainly have lost privileges to certain things. however, if my dh or i choose to go this route, we try to make the consequence relevant to the action. we don't just throw around punitive punishments. i also give my kids warnings first. for example, when my ds was smaller, he went through a terrible phase of hitting other kids. when we went to the park or playdates, he clearly knew in advance what behavior was acceptable. i can think of 2 incidents though where he was hitting other children (in spite of my shadowing him). i gave him a warning that we were going to have to leave, but regardless of the warning, we had to pack up and go home. i felt bad for my ds and i had empathy for him, but i also knew that staying and letting him hit kids was not an option. the privilege was revoked as a consequence of his actions. there are are other situations that privileges have been temporarily removed as well. it doesn't happen often, but when it does - i'm okay with it. i love my kids very much, and teaching them sometimes requires logical consequences & not just natural consequences.

anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[dulce de leche]

Bonnie, there are so many answers to your question. I think it varies a lot among different familes, and even in the same family it may well change depending on age and personalities, etc.

For us, I feel that punishment gets in the way of discipline, which to me is about teaching. If I deliberately try to make my children miserable, it is much harder for them to focus on the lesson that I want to teach. Think about it--what has punishment taught you? Was it the lesson you want your children to learn? Could you have benefitted from other ways of teaching it?

The times when I was punished, I usually got angry over perceived injustice. I concentrated on the resentment and shame and fear rather than anything beneficial. Even something like taking away priveleges just taught me to view it from an economic standpoint rather than a moral one: was it worth it to me to pay the price and still do what I wanted, or did I comply just because of self-interest? Whether the action was right or wrong got lost so easily once it became an issue of punishment and "consequences".

We have three kids (5.5, 3.5 and 1), and all could fall pretty easily into the strong-willed category, so for us it is imperative that our children want to do what is right. We try to help them by teaching in fun ways. When they don't act right, it seems to be usually because they don't feel right--hungry, food allergies, sleepy, or hurt feelings. If we try to punish them for that, it wouldn't help the root issue. It would probably just make things worse for all of us. Instead, we try to show grace and treat them the way we would want to be treated.

Now, I admit, that some things may come down to semantics in the eyes of some people. Like Elizawill mentioned, if my children were hurting someone or something, we would remove them from the situation. However, the intent would be simply to protect everyone, not to make the child feel bad. If my son threw a hard object, I'd move it out of reach, but I wouldn't try to make him miserable. Instead, I'd offer him something soft and appropriate for throwing, or try to meet whatever need seemed to prompt the throwing in the first place. Some might see it as a punishment (that I removed the forbidden object), but I think intent does matter. And if we were proactive about teaching what is OK to throw and where, it might not be an issue.

I see it ultimately as being about teaching. What do I want my children to learn, and what effectively teaches it? Retribution, for me, has nothing to do with teaching. In the example of Ananias and Sapphira, there was no hope left--they died. So, it wasn't a case where they learned any lesson. It was execution. My children have never been at that stage . There is always hope for them to learn.

Sorry--I've been trying to do a zillion things while typing this (we're leaving for the rest of the month). I will try to make more sense later.

[Thing1Thing2]

Thanks Dulce - you cleared alot up.

So I'm getting the idea that children naturally want to please their parents and if you help them along, and provide for their needs, they will cooperate most times.

It only becomes a power struggle when we try to "punish" them by making them feel bad. This makes them angry and removes the original focus, which is learning to do the right thing.

Am I correct?

[chipper26]

I haven't read the other replies, but I did read an interpretation that concerned the word "rod" on another thread recently. I thought it made perfect sense. The rod and staff are used by shepherds to GUIDE sheep, so the meaning could be simply to provide teaching and guidance. Why else would the Psalm say, "thy rod and staff, they COMFORT me"?

[chipper26]

This link discusses how the interpretation of the Hebrew word can mean either rod or staff.

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2000/20000321.htm

[Snugglebugmom]

Ultimately to be Christian is to strive to be like Christ. When did Jesus ever hit a child?
I may be grossly over-simplifying things, but this is what I keep in mind at all times.

[dulce de leche]

Originally Posted by BonnieNova

Thanks Dulce - you cleared alot up.

So I'm getting the idea that children naturally want to please their parents and if you help them along, and provide for their needs, they will cooperate most times.

It only becomes a power struggle when we try to "punish" them by making them feel bad. This makes them angry and removes the original focus, which is learning to do the right thing.

Am I correct?

For the most part, yes. Of course, kids are human, too, and there are times when they simply want their own way even when it is hurtful for them or others. But boundaries can be in place without punishment of any kind, and most of the time, we have a very peaceful, happy home just because we like each other so much.

Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn, Parent Effectiveness Training by Thomas Gordon, and Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen all give some good info.

I've found that if I give my kids the opportunity to brainstorm conflicts, they amaze me with the solutions that they come up with. My 5 year old is absolutely brilliant at thinking of ways that everyone will be happy, and she has been doing it since she was 3! At this point, she has learned to excel at zeroing in on what is important to me and dh, and coming up with creative ideas that satisfy all of us. I think she has a wonderful future as a mediator/lawyer/negotiator of some kind.

[momma_unlimited]

Still thinking on the ideas in this thread and I just had this vision...

Remember the story of the debtor who was forgiven of a large sum and turned around and demanded a smaller sum from someone who owed him?

I just realized... that is essentially how I was raised, and how I began to raise my kids. My parents were forgiven this huge debt of guilt by God, and yet held me accountable as a small child to pay back my guilt in punishments. And I started off parenting the same way... how merciful God was to reach down and show me another path.