What do you know about God's attributes?

[benj]

I have not posted a thread here, so hopefully this is in line with the rules.

I had recently had a discussion about God and time with a Christian. He was trying to explain to me how God was "beyond time and space" and trying to explain it logically to me. Of course, this does not make any sense.

Anyways, what do you think? Do you think God is an actual being, a concept, a covert name for something else (or something that I cannot think of to explain God )?


My thoughts, below:


Alright, so I am Jewish. I had always thought God was more of a concept than an actual supernatural being.

I had read (in a sermon) that there was a national poll (Harris poll) that said that while 80% of Catholics and Protestants were certain there was a God, and over 90% of evangelicals were certain there was a God, only 30% of Jews were certain of the existence of God. Let this number sink in.

Rabbi Harold M. Schulweis, a contemporary American rabbi spoke of an excercise he did with his students. He writes on the blackboard two columns. He begins filling in the first column with statements such as "God protects the innocent," "God heals the sick," "God is just," "God feeds the hungry," and "God is forgiving." When he asks his classroom how many believe the statements, few hands go up. In the second column, he writes these statements instead: "Protecting the innocent is godly," "Healing the sick is godly," "Justice is godly," "Feeding the hungry is godly," and "Forgiveness is godly." When he asks the class how many believe those statements, many more hands go up. When people see themselves as the passive recipients of God's philanthropy, they have difficulty believing in God. However, they are quick to recognize the "godliness" in the world. He coined this "predicate theology."

The focus in the text is not to show what or who God is, but what God does through the partnership with humanity.

[Bluegoat]

It seems to me there could be a number of explanations as to why those who identify as Jewish are less likely to see God as a being, that have nothing to do with theology. So I would be hesitant to say that means Jewish theology doesn't see God as a being without more information.

The idea of God is just a concept" is not a particularly helpful one. A concept for what? A concept to describe, Truth, Love, Justice? Ok, so those are immaterial ideas. So we can say it is a concept which describes something immaterial. If it describes Truth, and has any real meaning apart from the individual, we can say it actually exists apart from and outside individuals. And we can also say it doesn't change.

So, so far, we have a "concept" that really exists, eternally and unchanging, outside of individuals. Well, it's not a Being yet, perhaps, but it's well on it's way.

It seems to me saying God is a concept is often a way to make it seem more abstract and to avoid having to really dedicate ourselves to a truth that originates outside of ourselves.

[genifer]

Well, God is quite a unique Being. He is real. For me, its more then a belief, its knowledge. I know He is ...my creator, my very best friend, my Saviour and at the same time ...He is utterly and terrifyingly altogether different from us.

[benj]

Bluegoat,
I am going to respectfully disagree. A concept of God is not a copout. Jews come from a long line of God wrestlers, we are more likely to ask about the existence of God and leave the question unanswered than to come to a concrete conclusion. Rav Kook, the first rabbi of (what was then) Palestine said that to look at the world's flaws and not have doubts in the existence of God is sinful because it shows a hardened and indifferent heart. Questioning God is not only acceptable, but the sign of a caring and empathetic soul. In other words, ambiguity, even in matters of faith, is okay. Jews have the whole idea of mitzvot---specific belief is unimportant because it is your actions that matter.

[doubledutch]

i'm totally in the 'god is real' camp, but definitely not a physical being, and perhaps not really a 'person' in the sense we might think of things . . . more like a force. but certainly real, with intent and intelligence - not random, unknowing or uncaring.

[CrunchyChristianMama]

I believe God is an actual being for several reasons.

First off, in Genesis it says we were created in his image. This was referring to our physical bodies, not the image of a concept.

Second, throughout the Old Testement, different people saw the image of God.

Third, because I come from a belief in Jesus as Messiah, God is clearly an actual being because He walked on this earth.

Also, when you say things like, "healing the sick is godly", that implies a actual God. Something cannot be godly unless there is a God who models that behavior in which this person is replicating. If there was no God who healed the sick, then why would healing the sick be called godly? It wouldn't, it would be called good, noble, etc.

[benj]

Well I obviously do not believe Jesus was the messiah.

The whole way the bible got put together is enough for me not to take everything literally.

[smeisnotapirate]

ITA with doubledutch. G-d had to make Itself manifest in a pillar of smoke or fire, so I don't believe It's a "being." Nobody actually "sees" G-d. They see G-d manifested in different ways.

I think the reason for that Jewish statistic is that SO many of our children end their religious education after B'nai Mitzvah. A 13yo is just starting to develop a concept of G-d not being "the grandpa in the sky," and if they go through the rest of their life with a 13yo's understanding of G-d, I can see many Jews being unconvinced.

My rabbi always says "G-d forbid we leave the future of the Jewish people in the hands of people with a 13yo's education." Not saying anything against teens, but Jewish education is meant to be lifelong - and I think many American Jews aren't getting it.

ETA: When I first saw this thread, I thought to myself "Two tablets of the covenant, and One is the G-d of the whole world....."

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate

ITA with doubledutch. G-d had to make Itself manifest in a pillar of smoke or fire, so I don't believe It's a "being." Nobody actually "sees" G-d. They see G-d manifested in different ways.

I think the reason for that Jewish statistic is that SO many of our children end their religious education after B'nai Mitzvah. A 13yo is just starting to develop a concept of G-d not being "the grandpa in the sky," and if they go through the rest of their life with a 13yo's understanding of G-d, I can see many Jews being unconvinced.

My rabbi always says "G-d forbid we leave the future of the Jewish people in the hands of people with a 13yo's education." Not saying anything against teens, but Jewish education is meant to be lifelong - and I think many American Jews aren't getting it.

I don't think the concept of a being implies a physical being - a being is something that is, that has a kind of existence. Often, it refers specifically to a something which is alive rather than inanimate. While spiritual beings couldn't be said to be alive in a biological sense, one also couldn't describe them as inanimate.

I have to say though, in response to another post, I have never heard the idea that humans were created in God's image to be interpreted in the physical sense. Neither Christianity nor Judaism describe God as being a physical being, but rather immaterial.

[benj]

Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate

ITA with doubledutch. G-d had to make Itself manifest in a pillar of smoke or fire, so I don't believe It's a "being." Nobody actually "sees" G-d. They see G-d manifested in different ways.

I agree.

I think the reason for that Jewish statistic is that SO many of our children end their religious education after B'nai Mitzvah. A 13yo is just starting to develop a concept of G-d not being "the grandpa in the sky," and if they go through the rest of their life with a 13yo's understanding of G-d, I can see many Jews being unconvinced.

My rabbi always says "G-d forbid we leave the future of the Jewish people in the hands of people with a 13yo's education." Not saying anything against teens, but Jewish education is meant to be lifelong - and I think many American Jews aren't getting it.

ETA: When I first saw this thread, I thought to myself "Two tablets of the covenant, and One is the G-d of the whole world....."

I was always taught that action was more important than specific belief. You can believe all you want about God's love and attributes and specific qualities, but if your belief has no impact upon your actions, it is rendered insufficient.

It's not a contradiction to be Jewish and atheist or agnostic.

[benj]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

I have to say though, in response to another post, I have never heard the idea that humans were created in God's image to be interpreted in the physical sense. Neither Christianity nor Judaism describe God as being a physical being, but rather immaterial.

I've never heard that idea either.

[holyhelianthus]

FWIW Mormons actually do believe God is a physical being.

ETA-
http://lightplanet.com/mormons/basic...farms_what.htm (towards the bottom)

God's Physical Form
Latter-day Saints take literally the many passages in the Bible that describe God as having a physical form. God created Adam "in his own image" and "after [his] likeness" (Genesis 1:26-27), and Paul taught that ordinary mortal men were in the "image" of God (1 Corinthians 11:7). During his earthly life, Jesus Christ was said to be "the express image" of God the Father (Hebrews 1:3). When the Father and the Son appeared to Joseph Smith in the grove in 1820, the young boy "saw two glorious personages, who exactly resembled each other in features and likeness."

Sorry if that is a bit OT but I am somewhat answering your question for me. Yes, I believe God the Father is a physical being.

I believe He is real and tangible. That He is separate from Christ and the Holy Ghost (meaning I don't believe in the Trinity). That He is my spirit Father. That He is present.

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by benj

It's not a contradiction to be Jewish and atheist or agnostic.

Totally agree. I was just putting forth another theory as well.

[benj]

Originally Posted by smeisnotapirate

Totally agree. I was just putting forth another theory as well.

Ah, ok. Now I see. I had my bar mitzvah and was done with that particular temple, but still remained in the Jewish community. I also did birthright and I saw that a lot of Jews weren't ever reared into organized Judaism.

Interestingly enough, another rabbi told me that it works out better if you pretend there is no God. That if someone comes for help, to pretend that there is no God and that you're the only one that could help that person...and that would make God's world better.

I try to look at everything in the correct perspective so that I don't dismiss anybody's viewpoints. Religion intrigues me, even if I don't agree with the majority of it.

[greenmamato2]

I am really interested in this topic. I used to be a Christian, and a devout one at that. Life circumstances came about and after years of suffering and watching my children suffer in pain, I began to question. That is the VERY short of it. I've talked to pastors, and read books by rabbi's, and talked to fellow Christian friends and family. I still can't seem to marry the idea that the attributes we assign to God are true, if many of the things that happen on earth are "allowed". If God is loving, God is just, and God is omnicient and ever-powerful, then it would be said that he would not allow the defenseless to suffer. But they do (we're talking children here... babies. And no, I don't think that "original sin" should qualify a defenseless baby to suffer just for existing - I've heard that as well).

A book that explained this well to me, in a way that helped me to rectify my idea of who God is, was "When Bad Things Happen To Good People" by Harold S. Kushner. He is/was a rabbi and watched his son die at a very young age, and asked all these same questions. "Is God good? Is God all-powerful? Is God love? And if so, how can these things still occur?"

His answer (if I can roughly paraphrase) was that we know so very little about God. Even with the Torah/Bible, we are limited to what is available in those texts, and it has to be said that God's existence and personality is much bigger than we know or understnad or could record in one book. His suggestion was that perhaps God is all of those wonderful things, but he is unable to act on earth (maybe that is part of the free will aspect of things, which is a whole different discussion altogether). Maybe he is there for us, emotionally /spiritually, but doesn't actually intercede.

This would mean though, that miracles DON'T happen, unless you account for emotional wellness due to God being there for you. That means that life just is what it is, and God is constant and true and HIM, but not intervening on this earth.

To me, this made the most sense, though letting go of the idea of miracles was hard for me. I still don't have a definite definition of my spiritual beliefs, but I suppose something along these lines (mixed with Pantheist traditions and belief systems, actually also extending my belief system to god(s) and goddess(es) as well) is where I lay. I know that's an odd mix, but I guess you could say I'm in transition.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts on the subject.

[smeisnotapirate]

I : Kushner. All of his books are SO wise.

[Whistler]

Originally Posted by genifer

Well, God is quite a unique Being. He is real. For me, its more then a belief, its knowledge. I know He is ...my creator, my very best friend, my Saviour and at the same time ...He is utterly and terrifyingly altogether different from us.

Well put. I'll add a second to this one.

[Kidzaplenty]

:

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by Kidzaplenty

:

You're always such a tease! Post something, woman! I am interested in your thoughts....

[umsami]

From a Muslim standpoint, part of the way we learn about God is through his/her (God is neither masculine nor feminine in Islam) names. I don't remember much emphasis being placed on whether or not God was a physical being. I think there is something in the Qur'an that says "sight cannot catch him", which to me means that God is not visible to us in this form (as humans on earth). There are 99 names that are in the Qur'an... but I seem to remember that there were really many more. God is limitless. We know his/her attributes through his/her names.... http://www.sufism.org/society/asma/

A lot of them are about mercy, justice, kindness. We also have a special classification of ahadith (sayings/traditions) which relate to God called Ahadith Qudsi. These also mainly talk about God's kindness and forgiveness...

(For those unfamiliar with ahadith, these show the line of transmission... so who said this to whom, etc. It was a way to verify their validity. So if this was to occur in the Bible you might have something like On the authority of Peter, who said that Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor." Or whatever. )

On the authority of Abu Harayrah (may God be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: God the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am. I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

*****

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may God be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of God (peace be upon him) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) will say on the Day of Resurrection:

O son of Adam, I fell ill and you visited Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I visit You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so had fallen ill and you visited him not? Did you not know that had you visited him you would have found Me with him? O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I feed You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so asked you for food and you fed him not? Did you not know that had you fed him you would surely have found that (the reward for doing so) with Me? O son of Adam, I asked you to give Me to drink and you gave Me not to drink. He will say: O Lord, how should I give You to drink whin You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: My servant So-and-so asked you to give him to drink and you gave him not to drink. Had you given him to drink you would have surely found that with Me.

It was related by Muslim.

*****

On the authority of Anas (may Good be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of God (peace be upon him) say: Allah the Almighty said:

O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.

It was related by at-Tirmidhi (also by Ahmad ibn Hanbal). Its chain of authorities is sound.

****
I don't necessarily think God is something I can conceive of as a mortal. I think of God as the force of good and love.

Not sure I made any sense.