For Christian Orthodox Mamas

[delicate_sunshine]

My DH has been doing a lot of reading lately and feels like the orthodox church is the way to go. I want to be on the same page as he is and would like to read something, but everything he reads seems to be way over my head. Is there anything out there that I can read that was written for "simple folks." For the record I was raised non-denominational and have always felt very pulled to mennonite-ish ways. Please help me out here.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by delicate_sunshine

My DH has been doing a lot of reading lately and feels like the orthodox church is the way to go. I want to be on the same page as he is and would like to read something, but everything he reads seems to be way over my head. Is there anything out there that I can read that was written for "simple folks." For the record I was raised non-denominational and have always felt very pulled to mennonite-ish ways. Please help me out here.

This is about as simple as you're going to get. It's a set of four basic books - ONLINE - that are used for basic instruction for adults and teenagers. Someone I know who had a very sketchy high school education found these to be perfect to her. It's in short chapters, so doesn't take a lot of time.

http://www.oca.org/OCorthfaith.asp?SID=2

[delicate_sunshine]

Thanks!

[Tradd]

Do you know you're 66 miles from the closest Orthodox parish? Orthodoxy really is a "come and see" thing. Talking/emailing with a priest and visiting is the very best way to learn. I took the location from your profile, got zip code from the USPS website, and entered it in the church locator at www.orthodoxyinamerica.org

Closest church to you is an OCA (Orthodox Church in America, most parishes have English services, my parish is OCA) mission (meaning a small, starter congregation) in McComb, MS - Christ the Savior. Lots of converts from the looks of it.

http://www.christ-the-saviour.org/home.html

and their listing on the OCA website:
http://www.oca.org/DIRlisting.asp?SI...=OCA-SO-MCMCSM

I converted 5.5 years ago and have actually just begun the 3 year program in my diocese (Diocese of the Midwest) to become a certified catechist. I like to read (TV-free!) so I can definitely point you toward things to read.

I'm curious, just what has your DH been reading?

ETA: Don't let the distance keep you from going. In many areas, Orthodox parishes are few and far between, and people drive LONG distances. It's SO worth it!

[mamabadger]

The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware is kind of the standard introductory book, and very easy to find.

Regina Publishers also puts out a series of introductions to Orthodoxy. There is The Way, which is written for Protestants interested in the Orthodox Church; The Truth, written for Catholics; The Faith, an Orthodox catechism; and The Pearl, a handbook for new or prospective Orthodox converts. They are all fairly straightforward and easy to read.

[lilyka]

are you looking for books or web sites?

some good books for intoduction are:

Thirsting for God in a land of shallow wells by Matthew Gallitan
this site has a lot of books that are really good for people exploring the church.

and

At the Corner of East and Now
Facing East
both by Frederica Mathewes-Green
her site has a lot of simple straight forward articles from a converts perspective.

both of these writers have pod casts ancient faith radio along with a lot of other brilliant people, a wide variety of topics and if you go to music you can get a taste of Divine Liturgy.

[lilyka]

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...rthodox&page=2

here is a thread in religous studies with a lot of good intro links. if that does work let me know. the links are about half way down on the second page. the rest of the thread after that post is pretty informative too.

I am also sending you a PM with a link to a really great Orthodox message board. everyone there is super nice and there are a lot of priests wives and converts. there is a lot of great information and everyone is always happy to answer any questions you have.

[~Boudicca~]

Originally Posted by Tradd

This is about as simple as you're going to get. It's a set of four basic books - ONLINE - that are used for basic instruction for adults and teenagers. Someone I know who had a very sketchy high school education found these to be perfect to her. It's in short chapters, so doesn't take a lot of time.

http://www.oca.org/OCorthfaith.asp?SID=2

Thank you for posting this link, I'm finding it very helpful.

[~Boudicca~]

Originally Posted by lilyka

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...rthodox&page=2

here is a thread in religous studies with a lot of good intro links. if that does work let me know. the links are about half way down on the second page. the rest of the thread after that post is pretty informative too.

I am also sending you a PM with a link to a really great Orthodox message board. everyone there is super nice and there are a lot of priests wives and converts. there is a lot of great information and everyone is always happy to answer any questions you have.

Can you PM me this link too? I am interested in exploring eastern Orthodoxy so anything would be helpful.

[lilyka]

Done

and the reason I am not posting is because I don't want to spam. I am not sure what the official rules are for that sort of thing but if anyone else wants to know its just a chat board for Orthodox Christians. I will send anyone the address if they want it. its not any kind of secret or invitation only thing.

[Tradd]

Best basic intro books on Orthodoxy.

The Orthodox Church by Timothy (now Metropolitan Kallistos) Ware - he's an Anglican who became Orthodox in the 1950s. He's in the UK. Basics on history, doctrine, practice

The Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware. More on the spirituality of Orthodoxy. Excellent book, although it took me a while to get into it.

The Orthodox Faith (the link to the four books on the OCA website) by Fr. Thomas Hopko

For the Life of the World: Orthodoxy and Sacraments by Fr. Alexander Schmemann. Fr. Alexander was the dean for 20+ years of St. Vladimir's Seminary (OCA) in New York, and the very beloved teacher of my parish priest (Fr. Alexander died in 1983, and my priest graduated in 1981).

If you have a bit more cash available, there's an Orthodox Study Bible that just came out last year. Lots of good articles and notes from an Orthodox perspective. Published by Thomas Nelson (whose CEO is an Orthodox deacon!), it's about $50 hardcover, but you can get it cheaper on Amazon.

And choosing a parish:

Really, for the average Protestant or Catholic folks, an English-language parish is best. Check out the Orthodoxy in America website I linked to earlier in the thread. Go to the Church Locator and plug in your zip code or city. The Orthodox Church in America (OCA) and the Antiochian Archdiocese (this of Middle Eastern background) have large numbers of English-language parishes (although there are some parishes with services partially in another language to serve a local immigrant population), with lots of American-born clergy (lots of them convert, too), who are used to dealing with seekers.

Use more caution with ethnic Greek, Russian, Serbian, etc., parishes, unless they are the *only* parish for a good distance around. That means they likely have more folks than just those of the ethnic background of the parish founders. The ethnic parishes aren't "bad" - the folks who are closer to their ethnic background just often scratch their heads at why someone not of their ethnicity would want to investigate Orthodoxy. And really, why have the hurdle of services in a foreign language when you don't have to? Orthodoxy can be overwhelming to some folks at first, so unless you have a gift for languages, adding that complication might be too much.

It's always good to email or call the priest before you visit. Most priests are willing and more than welcome to talk with you. Many parishes are small, though, and the priest might be "it" for lots of things - no secretary, etc., so be patient if it takes him a bit to get back with you.

When you go to visit: get a liturgy book, if one is available. Service can take a bit to get used to. There will be some changeable hymns for each Sunday that are not in the book. Don't worry and flip through the book thinking you missed something! You'll be OK! The Orthodox stand to worship. The only thing we sit for is the sermon (although some might sit down during the Epistle reading). If you can't stand for the entire service (it takes some getting used to and our usual Sunday Liturgy is 1:15-1:45 long) you can sit down. Pay attention to what folks around you are doing. If *no one* around you is sitting, such as during the Gospel reading, for example, just wait a bit unless you're ill. Orthodox parishes might or might not have pews or chairs. If not, there will be some around the edges of the church on the walls.

As a seeker/visitor, please be aware that the Orthodox Church practices closed Communion - you must be an Orthodox Christian in good standing and properly prepared to receive Communion. We believe sharing Communion means we hold to the same faith. This is opposite from mainline Protestants who believe Communion is a way to foster unity, even if there is not common belief. This makes some inquirers uncomfortable.

Please be aware that the Orthodox take modesty in church seriously. Some very traditional parishes will require women cover their heads, but that's not standard practice in America, although lots of women WILL do it, on their own initiative. A skirt at least knee length is fine, with no spaghetti straps, and no cleavage or belly showing (some parishes consider sleeveless a no-no and others have no problem with it). It's considered disrespectful for anyone, aside from very small children, to wear shorts to church. Many don't have a problem with modest (not skin tight) pants on women - so a visitor wouldn't get told about it, but if you were a regular attender, you would notice if women weren't wearing pants. Jeans without holes are OK in many congregations.

In other words, casual is usually fine, unless it's immodest. You want to wear a knee-length denim skirt and a t-shirt? Shouldn't be a problem.

This is a nice article about what someone (now a priest's wife - her DH was an Episcopal priest and they converted in the early 90s) had wished she'd known before her first visit to an Orthodox Church.

http://www.frederica.com/12-things/

And one last thing you may read things about what happens during a service and then when you visit, it's slightly different. There are two main "usages" (liturgical traditions/way of doing things) in Orthodoxy: the Greek (this includes the Antiochians) and the Slavic (Russians, Serbians, Ukrainians, etc.). The article I just linked to mentions Matins (morning prayer service of hymns and Psalms) on Sunday morning before Liturgy. Well, that's in the Greek and Antiochian practice, generally. In the Slavic tradition, Matins is combined with Vespers (evening prayer service) to make the "All-Night Vigil" (which only lasts about two hours or so!). So it would be on Saturday night (usually late afternoon or early evening) in an OCA or Russian parish, but on Sunday morning with the Greeks and Antiochians. The faith and services are the same - but there are some minor differences in how services are done (and the music, too!). Text is always the same, but the melodies are way different! Don't get me started - I'm a very active member of my parish's choir and make a point of knowing as much as I can about our music.

HTH! PM me if you need more info or have questions.

[delicate_sunshine]

Wow! This has all been so incredibly helpful. I'm sorry if I'm slow responding, I don't get to sit down to the internet very often and also not for long periods of time, so I might get time to read something, but not necessarily respond. I found The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware in our house today and started reading it. It's more readable than a lot of the other stuff I've found... which is mostly big, thick books on church history. I don't really have any questions yet, because I still don't feel like I know enough to ask questions... if that makes sense. And I'm really glad for the info on what to expect for when we get to visit. Thanks so much gals.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by delicate_sunshine

Wow! This has all been so incredibly helpful. I'm sorry if I'm slow responding, I don't get to sit down to the internet very often and also not for long periods of time, so I might get time to read something, but not necessarily respond. I found The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware in our house today and started reading it. It's more readable than a lot of the other stuff I've found... which is mostly big, thick books on church history. I don't really have any questions yet, because I still don't feel like I know enough to ask questions... if that makes sense. And I'm really glad for the info on what to expect for when we get to visit. Thanks so much gals.

Glad it's been so helpful! Aside from The Orthodox Church, The Orthodox Way and For the Life of the World are shorter books (less than 200 pages), so they don't overwhelm you.

Forgot to add - OCA parishes often don't have the Vigil on Saturday evening, so it's just Vespers, which means a service of Psalms and hymns that lasts 45-60 minutes. Nice, quiet service (don't worry if you've got kids!). It's a good intro service. And often the priest might have time to talk to you afterwards - unless he has Confessions to hear, in which case, you just wait a bit. If you have to wait around for Confessions to talk to the priest (btw, we address our priests as Father First Name), just tell someone you're checking out Orthodoxy (it helps if you're not shy!) and most folks are more than willing to answer questions, etc. On Sunday mornings, it's common for there to be coffee hour after Liturgy. Go, get a cup of coffee and a bite to eat (might be cookies or coffee cake or a full lunch, depends on the parish!). Talk to the priest & parishioners, get a feel for the congregation. Be aware with it being summer now that lots of people are on vacation, and so a parish might seem more empty than it usually is during the school year. Someone might very well come up and greet you - I know I always do. We usually introduce ourselves to unfamiliar faces, and like helping out.

I don't know when to stop typing tonight! Have to go study for the class that will eventually lead to my catechist's certification exam! LOL!

[lilyka]

don't let the language thing be a barrier. most american churches are mostly in English most of the time. before assuming call and talk to the priest. ask how much of the liturgy you will be able to understand. our church averages 50/50 depending on who is serving. out liturgy books have greek on the left and english on the right (and follows neither word for word but there are pictures ). we also throw in a third language in parts for good measure but after you go a few times (and go 3 or 4 times before giving up on a parish) you will know what they are saying where because its liturgy and it is really easy to follow. hey, its set to music. if nothing else you will recognize the tune after a while but don't let language or culture be a barrier. I have heard from several places "oh you don't want to go to that parish, that nationality is not very welcoming" which grieves me that we can be so prejudice against our brothers and sisters. my "unwelcoming" parish is the sweetest warmest most welcoming church I have ever been too. it is very ethnically diverse and has lots of converts as well as cradle orthodox. however with new people they often politly give you your space before pouncing. and if there is a language barrier keep in mind that some things may get lost in translation. (i get some of the weirdest questions and comments ) Also when visiting a parish go to coffee hour. you will feel awkward and like your crashing a party. . . go anyway. coffee hour is part of church. its the third part of the service. (most parishes have Matins, Orthos or the Hours before Litugy - find out which one they have and how long it will be. they range from about 10 minutes to an hour) its Biblical, read Acts. they heard about Christ, the were baptized and then they got something to eat. And don't be shy. Eat. it makes them happy. you will likely be the center of attention at a small parish and perhaps invisible at a large parish. but I think that goes for large and small churches everywhere.

Some parishes are more relaxed than others. again just call ahead and talk to the priest about how they would like you to dress, if women are expected to cover, if men and women can sit together (some churches have men on one side and women on the other, although I have never seen this in an American church). ask him what else you should know.

and my general liturgy survival key when all else fails. figure out who the priests wife is and follow her lead.

in the end feel free not to follow along at all. feel free to just sit or stand as you are comfotable and watch and feel the presence of the Lord. it doesn't nessecarily matter if you know what is going on at all. Everyone sorta does their own thing their own way in their own time anyway and no one is all that concerned with what you are doing so long as you are bing respectful. Also you will be a visitor and people really do extend a lot of grace towards visitors.

meh, just go. don't overthink the parish. people get so uptight about language, culture, pews, no pews, covering, programs, and so and so said this about the Greeks and that about the Russians etc. forget about all that. just go. things that may seem like a barrier may not be to you and things that seem important may not be in the end. you may be surprised. just taste and see. the one thing that is important is that you are going to a real Orthodox Church. If there is any doubt I can give you the names of the Bishops who should be in charge.

[lilyka]

oh and kids - Orthodox churches don't have nurseries (at least none I have heard of). kids are fully functiong, fully participating members of the parish. Most parishes are pretty tolerant of moderate kids noise but of course be respectful of other worshipers and takeyour child out if they are creating a disturbance but walking around and teaching to pray and worship are perfectly acceptable. Our parish doesn't mind if you feed your kids in the service but some do. personally, breast, bottle, sippy cup or cheerios, i wouldn't feed my child in church. i would go to the narthex or cry room. but thats just me. this is something you will want to ask the priest before you go. can you feed babies or distract kids with snacks in the church, how would he like you to handle it,how do people usually handle it.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by lilyka

don't let the language thing be a barrier. <snip> but don't let language or culture be a barrier. I have heard from several places "oh you don't want to go to that parish, that nationality is not very welcoming" which grieves me that we can be so prejudice against our brothers and sisters. my "unwelcoming" parish is the sweetest warmest most welcoming church I have ever been too. it is very ethnically diverse and has lots of converts as well as cradle orthodox. however with new people they often politly give you your space before pouncing. and if there is a language barrier keep in mind that some things may get lost in translation. (i get some of the weirdest questions and comments ) Also you will be a visitor and people really do extend a lot of grace towards visitors.

meh, just go. don't overthink the parish. people get so uptight about language, culture, pews, no pews, covering, programs, and so and so said this about the Greeks and that about the Russians etc. forget about all that. just go. things that may seem like a barrier may not be to you and things that seem important may not be in the end. you may be surprised. just taste and see. the one thing that is important is that you are going to a real Orthodox Church. If there is any doubt I can give you the names of the Bishops who should be in charge.

Lilyka, it's only fair we give inquirers warning about the ethnicity and related language issues. Some parishes ARE genuinely *un*welcoming to anyone not of their ethnic background. To deny that it's not the case doesn't do anyone any favors. Ethnicity is the bane of Orthodoxy. You're in a smallish city in a Greek parish that's the only Orthodox parish in the entire state. Your parish is forced to be more pan-Orthodox and welcoming of non-Greeks out of sheer necessity. Not two months ago, I had a Greek lady in my face for me daring to accept the presidency of the regional pan-Orthodox association, with my being a convert. A Greek priest had to intervene and take her aside. This Greek priest doesn't stand for the ethnic nonsense of "if you're not Greek, you can't be Orthodox." My cradle Orthodox, American-born PRIEST (dressed like a priest in cassock and cross) has had issues getting into see the local Greek priest, because the laity manning the office didn't want to let a non-Greek priest to see their priest.

I'm in a large metro area with a large Greek population - from what priests tell me, about 1/3 of the Greek parishes have services mostly in Greek.

The catechist in my parish has worked with inquirers in the past who were seriously turned off Orthodoxy by highly ethnic parishes - by the attitude of the average person in the pew. The priest might be welcoming, but if you've got people, who even after you attend for a while, refuse to speak English in your presence, bluntly tell you that you don't matter because you're not X ethnicity, and tell you to get out, would you want to belong to that parish? The priests would have a very difficult time routing attitudes like this out of unwelcoming folks. Our catechist is currently working with a couple who has visited a few different parishes (Greek, Serbian, Romanian, Antiochian) at the suggestion of our priest, as he always does with catechumens. They had an extremely bad experience at the Greek parish with totally unwelcoming and rude folks and a lot of damage control had to be done. They also got the standard "If you're not Greek, why are you here?" routine and the grilling on their ethnicity.

Something else to consider is that people have varying levels of tolerance for hearing things in another language they don't understand. Frankly, I get distracted beyond anything if I can't understand what's being spoken. Worshiping in another language is not something I can do. And I'm not the only one. I know "signal post" words in Greek and Slavonic, so I can somewhat follow if forced to, but going to a service mostly/entirely in another language? No way. And if the sermon is in another language, there's no way you're going to be spiritually fed. I have no talent for foreign languages. If I couldn't manage Spanish, there's no way I'm going to learn something with a different alphabet!

Watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding should be proof enough - the future FIL told the groom "You GREEK now!" after he was baptized, not "You Orthodox now."

[lilyka]

but those prejudices can also keep people away. since I had no other options I almost gave up before my journey had began. before I even went to the church. first of all there was more English than I thought. and within a few weeks I could follow certain parts of the Greek (seriously how many times do you have to here Lord have Mercy in any language before you can understand it ). Secondly you can not judge a parish by its ethnic make up or even its ethnic make up by its name. The least welcoming parish I have ever been at was an OCA parish. But I do not hold this against all OCA parishes because it was probably just the local culture (one i grew up in and was happy to leave because i thought everyone was really rude) or just the crowd or just the crowd that sunday.....

my point is have an open mind. I thought I knew exactly what kind of parish I wanted to go to and what I needed and what would be a turn off but God really humbled me. Every single obstical (or percieved obstical) stood in my way but it has turned out to be heaven on earth for me. The richest soil for me to grow in. Even though I can't understand a word Father P says even when he is speaking English even though we have annoying pews. Even though it took me a while to acclimate. even though it was intimidating. We have Slavic liturgies too and being there without understanding much (I can understand the Lords prayer and the trisagion because we always do those in Slavonic at every service along with English and Greek) enriches me and forces me to go deeper than I ever could in English. I would have never guessed that though. So Go. Go to every parish in driving distance. meet the priests. meet the people. meet the Orthodox church. your not commited to anything. there are no magic drugs in the coffee (its just weak....)that will force you to stay. experiance the church and then see which one God would have you at. You never know. And you can't judge a parish before you meet it.

and U have gotten more than my fair share of "are you Greek? is your Husband Greek? are your babies Greek? then why you here?". followed by "are you Russian? Serbian? Bosnian? Why you here?" followed by "its ok . . .we glad you here. you kids are goot. very polite. come downstairs. eat." I think they are just stumped. We don't get a lot of people who just walk in off the street. I don't take it as malice of any sort. its their round about sort of way of trying to figure out what drew me to the church. They are always more than happy to listen to my journey when I feel like sharing and I am truely one of their own now regardless of where or why I came from.

anyway, I am not saying anyone should choose a parish under the greek Archdiocese over any other but don't be scared to go either. don't let prejudice and rumors and stereo types dissuade you from meeting the people at a Greek parish. The Greek parish or the Russian or the whatever parish might be where God intends for you to be. Don't let someone elses experiances sway you. I did and I regret it. All the love and holiness and beauty and fullness of the Orthodox church as a whole and within my parish was waiting for me but I resisted over such trifels. there are great people and not so great people everywhere. the Orthodox church is no exception. Just go in with an open heart and mind. expect the best of people and the best of God.

[Tradd]

Weak coffee? Every parish I've ever been at makes it as strong as motor oil!:

You and I have had extremely different experiences.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by lilyka

and I have gotten more than my fair share of "are you Greek? is your Husband Greek? are your babies Greek? then why you here?". followed by "are you Russian? Serbian? Bosnian? Why you here?" followed by "its ok . . .we glad you here. you kids are goot. very polite. come downstairs. eat." I think they are just stumped. I don't take it as malice of any sort. its their round about sort of way of trying to figure out what drew me to the church. They are always more than happy to listen to my journey when I feel like sharing and I am truely one of their own now regardless of where or why I came from.

"We glad you here"? That doesn't happen HERE, for sure! My favorite had to be when I was told to not return to a GOA 20s-30s group gathering (I'd gone to two meetings with no one but the priest talking to me) - and finally someone spoke to me - in front of the priest - and told me to not bother coming back. The girls wouldn't speak to me, I was told, because they thought I was going to steal a Greek guy and the guys wouldn't speak to me because I wasn't Greek. The priest was extremely unhappy with this girl for saying this, but there wasn't anything he could do about the attitude itself. He'd seen me at two gatherings with no one speaking to me but himself (even when I'd say simply hello, folks would turn away, stop speaking English and switch to Greek), and totally understood why I wasn't going to be returning.

Something similar happened at another GOA parish 20s-30s group. Enough. I learned my lesson.

[lizzylou]

Coming in a little late here, but - yikes, Tradd. What a terrible story that is.

lilyka - would you mind sending me the link to the Ortohodox message board? I've been investigating lately. Thanks!