How Does Excommunication Work?

[Valkyrie9]

I've had experience with it in one religion, but I'm curious as to how other religions deal with it.

How does a congregation know if someone has been excommunicated?

How are they supposed to treat the excom. person if they encounter them? If that person is family?

Does your church (to your knowledge) even do excommunications?

What are the key sins that could lead to it?

Is excommunication forever?

Thanks for your inputs.

[holyhelianthus]

I am LDS (Mormon). I have known people who have been ex'd.

Originally Posted by Valkyrie9

How does a congregation know if someone has been excommunicated?

The rumor mill? There is no formal announcement or anything. It is regarded as a very private thing though of course with any community you are going to get people talking, ykwim?

How are they supposed to treat the excom. person if they encounter them? If that person is family?

There is no real command for this besides the all encompassing "love one another" from Christ. But the church itself doesn't say to or not to associate with them though I am sure plenty of members choose not to and plenty do.

Does your church (to your knowledge) even do excommunications?

Yup.

What are the key sins that could lead to it?

Well it varies. Not everyone who does X or Y will be ex'd though there are some exceptions namely murder. The people I know were ex'd for adultry, child abuse, elective abortion, etc.

Is excommunication forever?

Not always. I know some ex'd members who are full members again at this point. I want to say it is for murder though. Someone please correct me if I am wrong here.

[Valkyrie9]

Thank you for the reply!

[mamabadger]

In the Orthodox church, excommunication means being denied Communion for a period of time, after committing some grave sin or being involved in something sacrilegious. This is done for his protection, since receiving Communion "unworthily" is considered potentially harmful. That may not be the same thing you mean, but excommunication in the other sense, of formally kicking someone out of the church or shunning them, is virtually unknown in Orthodox Christianity. A person can leave the church, and may have some requirements placed on him if he wants to come back again later, but a church member is almost never asked to leave.

A person could be excommunicated in our sense (denied Communion) for almost any period of time - a week, a month, occasionally even a year or more. Lifelong excommunication is very, very rare, but could happen in the case of something like premeditated murder. In that case, the person would still be given Communion if he was near death.
Other church members would not know about the excommunication unless the person chose to tell them; and they are not expected to treat him any differently from another parishoner.

In very strict parishes and some monasteries, a person could be asked to attend services in the narthex - a sort of foyer or entrance hall - instead of the main part of the church, for a specified period of time. This is uncommon in modern times, but it has been used in situations where people have apostatized or otherwise separated themselves from the Church. It is about the closest thing we have to the "kicking out" kind of excommunication, but church members are still not expected to treat the person any differently.

[Tradd]

To piggyback on what Mamabadger said, in Orthodoxy, excommunication is not so much what the church does as something you do.

Example: getting married outside the Church (whether in civil or other religious ceremony) and living together before marriage seem to be issues priests see a lot, from what mine (and others) have said. We recently had a guy in my parish (long divorced) who announced he was going to move in with his girlfriend (lots of alimony $$$ they didn't want to give up - they were very open about it). As soon as our priest heard, he told the guy that he's excluded from the sacraments (excommunicated) until he either is no longer living with her or marries her.

They still come to church.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

In very strict parishes and some monasteries, a person could be asked to attend services in the narthex - a sort of foyer or entrance hall - instead of the main part of the church, for a specified period of time. This is uncommon in modern times, but it has been used in situations where people have apostatized or otherwise separated themselves from the Church. It is about the closest thing we have to the "kicking out" kind of excommunication, but church members are still not expected to treat the person any differently.

I just wanted to expand on this as it sounds like a a really harsh punishment. it is not. Traditionally those not baptized/chrismated would attend the first half of the service from the narthex and would not be allowed to attend the second half of the service (hence when the priest calls out in the middle of liturgy "the doors, the doors" he is calling for the doors between the narthex and nave to be closed since the entire second half of the service is part of the sacrment of the Eucharist. and only those baptiosed may participate. most parishes allow for guests, seekers and catechumens (those in the process of joining) to remain in the nave and likely those same parishes would allow the excommunicated to remain there as well. But as there is no sin unforgivable I can not imagine anyone being barred from the church for life. wait, there was a king wasn't there. a king of Russia who was not allowed to enter the church so he worshiped from outside the church. he was still allowed to participate though, in some way and his salvation was still a work in progress. i think he kept killing his wives.....but since we are not kings and may not continuously kill people, you are never fully cut off (unless you want to be) and any actions taken are for your benifit and only for a time.

[Valkyrie9]

When you guys say "Orthodox," I'm unsure what exact branch that is. I've heard of Orthodox Jews and Russian Orthodox, but could use some clarification. Thank you!

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie9

When you guys say "Orthodox," I'm unsure what exact branch that is. I've heard of Orthodox Jews and Russian Orthodox, but could use some clarification. Thank you!

We are referring to Orthodox Christianity. Many people think "Russian Orthodox" and "Greek Orthodox" and so forth are all separate religions, but there is just one Orthodox church, regardless of nationality.

[Valkyrie9]

Oh, okay. Thank you!

[MissinNYC]

In our church, people are excommunicated for any sin they have been confronted on repeatedly and are not repentent about. We follow Matthew 18, which says to confront the person alone, then with others, then with church authority, and then excommunicate them. There is no automatic excommunication for any specific sin- we have murderers and drug addicts and former prostitutes and women who've had abortions in our congregation. The issue is repentance or not.

When someone is excommunicated people have different attitudes about it- I personally feel I should not fellowship with them. We couldn't stop them from attending church, I suppose, but I can't imagine soneone having been ECed and still even wanting to attend, it just doesn't make sense.

Oh, I am presbyterian, BTW.

[Valkyrie9]

Thanks, MissinNYC. That's closer to the experience I have had. You particularly brought out repentence--how would other posters reply if the person was unrepentent? Would that change your replies at all?

FTR: I am excommunicated and am just wondering how different religions deal with excommunicated people. Thanks.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie9

You particularly brought out repentence--how would other posters reply if the person was unrepentent? Would that change your replies at all?

FTR: I am excommunicated and am just wondering how different religions deal with excommunicated people. Thanks.

Well, in the example I cited in my Orthodox parish - the guy who was excommunicated (excluded from the sacraments) for moving in with his girlfriend is quite unrepentant. He made no secret about the fact that, regardless of him being well off, he's moving in with girlfriend, rather than marrying her, because *both* of them don't want to lose her *very* generous alimony. He won't be readmitted to the sacraments until 1 of 2 things happened: he moved out (and no hanky-panky, either!) or married her.

The Greek word for repentance in the Bible actually means a turning about, total change of one's life. So, someone would have to repent of what they had done that put them outside the church and make the necessary changes, if the situation warrants it - such as stopping living outside of marriage with someone, or get married in the Church.

A friend of mine told me about a woman at her Orthodox parish who married a non-Christian man in a ceremony in his faith (an Oriential religion). The Orthodox Church will not marry one of her members to a non-Christian. It's considered a concession to modern society for us to be able to marry other Christians in the Church. Anyway, this woman was warned by the priest that if you marry outside the Church, you're excommunicated. When you marry outside the Church, in another Christian body, the general remedy is for the couple to have their marriage blessed in the Orthodox Church. Well, since this woman married a non-Christian that's not even an option. She will probably eventually be allowed access to the sacraments again, but it will be some time.

If someone is warned, "You do X and Y is the result" and you do X, you'd be considered unrepentant, since you were warned and went ahead and did it anyway. It'd be considered thumbing your nose at the Church. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

So, the guy at my church who is living with his girlfriend. As long as he remains living with her, he's considered to be unrepentant. In addition, he's showing the money is more important than his faith - and he's already well off. Could he be sorry (and he likely is) that he's excommunicated? Very possibly, but he was clearly told BEFORE he did it what the consequences of his actions would be. You do it anyway, you have to accept responsibility for your actions.

If you do something out of ignorance (not knowing what the consequences were), then the resulting excommunication might not be for as long as it could be, but if after you're told what needs to happen to return to the sacraments, and you still don't do it, you'd be considered unrepentant.

So, someone Orthodox gets married to a Lutheran in a Lutheran church because that's very important to the Lutheran part of the couple, not knowing the Orthodox person would be excommunicated. If once they found out, they got their marriage blessed in the Orthodox Church, the excommunication would be lifted right away (I think) for the Orthodox person. But if they don't get the marriage blessed in the Orthodox Church, then the excommunication continues for a certain amount of time, determined by the priest in consultation with his bishop. There can be extenuating circumstances. Perhaps the Lutheran is violently opposed to an Orthodox marriage blessing and causes a ruckus whenever the Orthodox brings it up. That might lessen the length of time of the excommunication. Although, I'd wonder why someone would marry a person so against something important to them...

But that begs the question how serious that Orthodox person was about their faith in the first place...

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by Valkyrie9

Thanks, MissinNYC. That's closer to the experience I have had. You particularly brought out repentence--how would other posters reply if the person was unrepentent? Would that change your replies at all?

FTR: I am excommunicated and am just wondering how different religions deal with excommunicated people. Thanks.

You're asking us right?

Well it depends on what they did, ykwim?

[purplepaperclip]

Originally Posted by MissinNYC

In our church, people are excommunicated for any sin they have been confronted on repeatedly and are not repentent about. We follow Matthew 18, which says to confront the person alone, then with others, then with church authority, and then excommunicate them. There is no automatic excommunication for any specific sin- we have murderers and drug addicts and former prostitutes and women who've had abortions in our congregation. The issue is repentance or not.

When someone is excommunicated people have different attitudes about it- I personally feel I should not fellowship with them. We couldn't stop them from attending church, I suppose, but I can't imagine soneone having been ECed and still even wanting to attend, it just doesn't make sense.

Oh, I am presbyterian, BTW.

And just FYI for any who are not familiar with presbyterians, there are obviously varying degrees of the denomination. The congregation I have experience with did not in any way excommunicate anyone for any reason. In fact, the church's health insurance plan covered abortion.

[*Aimee*]

My mother was excommunicated from the LDS church for living in sin. My step dad and mother were going to get married but couldn't because he would lose all his college grants. They got married two days after graduation.

We lost all our support structure, friends, some family. My mom lost her baby sitter (all our neighbors were LDS and I would stay with them after school). It was awful. She, to this day, feels it was because my step dad was black, as we knew a couple other families living in sin as well.


I really, REALLY, don't like excommunication. I feel it's not very Godlike, but that's probably just my bitterness

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by *Aimee*

My mother was excommunicated from the LDS church for living in sin. My step dad and mother were going to get married but couldn't because he would lose all his college grants. They got married two days after graduation.

We lost all our support structure, friends, some family. My mom lost her baby sitter (all our neighbors were LDS and I would stay with them after school). It was awful. She, to this day, feels it was because my step dad was black, as we knew a couple other families living in sin as well.


I really, REALLY, don't like excommunication. I feel it's not very Godlike, but that's probably just my bitterness

I have to say your last comment made me think about excommunication as a whole. I have never really thought on it from a God/Christ POV if that makes sense... Hmmmm....

This is not doctrinal and I do believe the OP was asking about doctrinal which is why I answered the way I did. But if we are talking about cultural I have witness LDS shunning and have been at the other end of it after being disfellowshipped (one step from ex'd) and actually for the same reason as your mom plus we had a child out of wedlock. Some shunned us and some acted as if nothing happened and were still friends and supportive.

The thing with LDS culture though is it's like any other religion. Some areas are going to range. The sort of behavior you are talking about seems more likely in a heavily populated LDS area with lots of pioneer stock Mormons (those who's families have been members since the Mormons were trecking across America) who just don't see any different and therefore think different is wrong and scary and should be avoided at all costs. I am a California Mormon. We don't have a lot of memebers here and the members we do have are mainly converts or from convert families. We seem to be a bit more tolerant overall though not always.

It's just important to note the difference- unlike other religions Mormonism does not carry a doctrine of shunning though it's members are of course free to do what they will. I can't even tell you how many folks were falling all over themselves to come up and talk with DH and I when he converted and I came back a few years later. But like I said there were also members who had been there during those years regardless.

It's really hard with Mormon culture though because so many are sheltered that it becomes like church and it's members are this safe haven and when you leave or whatever it just simply must mean you are awful. It can be very black and white sometimes with Mormon=good Everything else=not so good. But I can't stress enough how this is not doctrinal (if nothing else but for myself as it drives me nuts ) because so many members, ex-members, non-members, anti-Mormons, etc etc confuse doctrine with the culture.

I have heard it said in church over the pulpit that we should be accepting of those struggling in their membership. Whether or not people listen is a whole other story.

[seeing_stars]

I am a pioneer stock Mormon married to an excommunicated member. He had already requested the church court when we met and was excommunicated a few months into our relationship. I was not present for his meeting, but he told me that it was done with love and a true desire by everyone there for him to be able to repent. The church cannot control how it's members react to someone who has been ex'ed and unfortunately some people are close minded and shun that person. We've had a very positive experience. DH doesn't pray publicly, but he does comment in class often. I've gone through various stages of inactivity and we have always been embraced with love and respect in our congregation. I have been in wards that were very petty nd terrible though and that is a shame.

How does a congregation know if someone has been excommunicated? The person can tell people or I guess here it from the rumor mill. It is not publicly announced.

How are they supposed to treat the excom. person if they encounter them? If that person is family? Excommunicated or not, that person should be welcomed with love. The wonderful thing about the atonement is that sin (even serious sin) is not permanent (except for murder as far as I know)

Does your church (to your knowledge) even do excommunications? Yes.

What are the key sins that could lead to it? Murder, domestic abuse, adultery, elective abortion, acting on same sex attraction

Is excommunication forever? Not usually. DH was told that he could retake missionary discussions and work to re baptism after a year. A murdered would not be rebaptized and I believe that if you are excommunicated twice you can't be baptized for a third time, but I am not 100% on that.

[holyhelianthus]

Oh yes I think you are right about the ex'd twice. I had totally forgotten. I am hoping that is not true for personal reasons but it is what I have heard.

[lilyka]

why is murder any different than any other sin? is abortion considered murder?

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by lilyka

why is murder any different than any other sin? is abortion considered murder?

On second thought, Lilyka, I am just going to PM you as to not endanger the thread.