or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Parenting › My sons witnessed animal abuse.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

My sons witnessed animal abuse. - Page 5

post #81 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
Well, you can't do it if you're not always home...and lots of people have reasons to be away.




I'm confused as to why you say killing the rats isn't working. They used to have multiple rats, and now they're down to one, maybe two, at a time. In any case, I never said it was impossible. I said I'd be interested in what the other methods are. I don't actually know everything they've tried, so I thought I'd pass the ideas on. You seem to think that I have some sort of vested interest in killing the rats, simply because I don't think it's a big deal. I don't. I'm not sure what I'd do in their situation, because having to actually dispose of a dead animal makes me sick. (This applies when I've lost pets, too.) These particular people tried a few things - I don't know what all of them were - and then went to "traps" that kill. That worked. That doesn't mean there wasn't something else that might have worked, too...it just means they didn't find something.

To be honest, most people I've known who have tried non-fatal methods of dealing with pests have had very, very limited luck. That doesn't mean I don't think it can work, though.

The problem really with using only fatal methods, or even methods that try to repel, is that it doesn't address why they are there. If you figure that out then you can keep them from coming back. Hopefully.
post #82 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommysarah5 View Post
and what about the people who keep killing the animals even though THAT doesn't work? why do they still keep killing them?
What makes you say it doesn't work? I have no idea whether the OP's stepdad's trapping efforts are actually helping reduce gopher damage on his property, but it seems reasonable that they might be. I know trapping mice in our house works. We start seeing and hearing signs of mice, we set a trap, we catch a mouse or two, then for a while we don't notice any more signs of mice. Only for a while, of course, because there are lots of mice in the fields and woods around our house, and nothing we do is going to change that as long the fields and woods are still there. So, yes, we have to keep setting traps, but that certainly doesn't mean the traps don't work.

(If you've only ever had one mouse in your house, you probably do live in a different universe than I do, or at least a different part of it.)
post #83 of 126
I asked and she said he's been doing this for a long time and still has the problem. I didnt assume. I asked first
post #84 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffodil View Post
(If you've only ever had one mouse in your house, you probably do live in a different universe than I do, or at least a different part of it.)
Maybe. I only lived there for maybe 3 months, so I can't say for sure that was the only mouse in all that houses history. but it sure was cute, and the people I was renting the room from never had any mouse traps set during my stay there
post #85 of 126
OP, sorry your kids had to witness that. I remember when I was having a few friends spend the night for my 9th birthday party and my stepdad and one of his friends were skinning the squrrels they'd hunted that day right outside. We (friends & I) opened the door to a bunch of bloody skinned squirrels laying in a pile and their skins hanging from our clothesline. barf.

I agree with pp's to maybe just talk with him & request that your kids not be taken to check the traps and also that you'll let him know when and if you want them to learn anything about hunting for food.

As a side... I currently have a raccoon mother & cubs in our attic. In my state, trap & release is outlawed this season (been told it varies species to species and year to year, depending on disease stats). Raccoons this year are to be euthanized upon catch. Companies that tell anyone they'll trap & relocate are not being truthful most of the time so its good to check your state laws to be certain. So, I'm letting the cubs get a few weeks older, then beginning to seal up entrance and exit ways with aluminum soffit & crawl space screening (leaving one entry/exit hole in the sofft & the crawl space), then spraying fox urine every few days and hanging lighted flashlights and leaving a few portable radios on full time until she leaves with her cubs to a new location. Then, you can test if they're still around by stuffing newspaper into the remaining open holes (use a broom or pole b'c they sleep right inside the holes and will bite you) and if the paper remains untouched for a day or two, then I'll screen the open holes closed. The photos you see online of raccoons digging thru roofing etc are from a female raccoon who has had her cubs trapped inside after someone sealed them inside when she was outside, so she did what she had to to re-enter. Almost 100% of the time raccoons, possums, etc will find an easier access location than to go to the trouble of dismantling a roof, unless its a mother whose babies are already trapped inside.

There are ways to avoid a kill situation, some people just want an immediate solution to their situation or they don't realize that there are other ways to drive pest animals away - or, they simply view pest animals as pests and NOT animals. But, I understand that this can't work for every situation. If there is a high population of pests already infesting your home and they are threatening harm to your family and food crop and you do not have the time or money to invest, I guess you do what you need to do??

Again, sorry your kids had to see that!
post #86 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommysarah5 View Post
I asked and she said he's been doing this for a long time and still has the problem. I didnt assume. I asked first
Yeah, but just because the gophers haven't all disappeared forever, that doesn't mean killing them isn't working. We've been setting mouse traps ever since we moved into this house and I expect we'll keep setting them as long as we live here. That doesn't mean the traps aren't working. (I guess you could say they're not working to make all mice disappear from this area forever, but that's not what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to minimize mouse damage and contamination in our house, and that they do.)
post #87 of 126
I can tell you that in my situation (prarie dogs and gophers on the ranch) there is no other solution but to kill them if the general public and my family contiue to want to have meat on their tables. There is no way to get rid of all of them (aside from paving the pastures and then what do the cows and sheep eat?) but hunting keeps them at bay and their holes to a more managable number.

I've also seen a few people on this thread suggesting calling places like game and fish. If you were to do that where we live they would suggest shooting them the same way their own employees do. They literally take over and destroy the habitat for both native species and livestock.
post #88 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agatha_Ann View Post
I can tell you that in my situation (prarie dogs and gophers on the ranch) there is no other solution but to kill them if the general public and my family contiue to want to have meat on their tables. There is no way to get rid of all of them (aside from paving the pastures and then what do the cows and sheep eat?) but hunting keeps them at bay and their holes to a more managable number.

I've also seen a few people on this thread suggesting calling places like game and fish. If you were to do that where we live they would suggest shooting them the same way their own employees do. They literally take over and destroy the habitat for both native species and livestock.
Just curious, but do all people who feel the need to kill to keep them at bay also feel the need to bash their head repeatedly with a stick in order to kill them? I think that's the part that really lost me on the whole "the guy was trying to be nice" and "he was only protecting his land" I don't argue he was protecting his land, but I dont think that he was only doing that. And with him doing it in front of the kids when their mother said not to makes it clear that he is the type of person that will kill an animal for more then just one reason.

My response would have been very different if the original post said
"My FIL love hunting and also has a pest problem. He traps them to get rid of them, but sometimes when the trap doesn't work he shoots them in the head to put them out of their misery. He respects my wishes not to do any hunting stuff around my kids though."

but beating the animal in the head over and over again with a stick?

You know what it reminds me of. When they kick chickens to "coralle" them before they kill them, when I have seen chickens be coralled without being kicked. you need to kill a pest, or kill your dinner, fine. You don't need to make it a drawn out painful process though. That's when I get bothered by it.
post #89 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffodil View Post
Yeah, but just because the gophers haven't all disappeared forever, that doesn't mean killing them isn't working. We've been setting mouse traps ever since we moved into this house and I expect we'll keep setting them as long as we live here. That doesn't mean the traps aren't working. (I guess you could say they're not working to make all mice disappear from this area forever, but that's not what they're supposed to do. They're supposed to minimize mouse damage and contamination in our house, and that they do.)
and yet, one can minimize things like gophers without killing them, and still they choose to kill them. They say the humane methods dont work because they still get gophers, but if they still get gophers when killing them then the killing method still works because it reduced the gophers? why is there a double standard here? Killing works even if it doesn't work "all the way" but if not killing doesn't work all the way then it doesn't work and so that means they must switch to killing. I can see some people think killing works better - but I also see a lot of people who think this without ever trying the humane ways.
post #90 of 126
FYI, some of this is a bit OT:

Just read some of the rest of this thread and wanted to add that, odd as it may sound, in the six yrs I've owned this house, I've never had to use pesticides regularly (and I live in the tropics in a foresty area, surrounded by live oaks and a creek)... I did use about four flea bombs last year when the entire hood was infested with fleas. I also tried diatomaceous earth in our garage and deck areas, which works well (use food grade only or its toxic!!) But other than that, I guess we have a nice eco balanced area, b'c re-homing spiders, keeping ALL food that is not canned or sealed bottles/jars in the fridge, keeping a clean house and outdoor areas using essential oils to clean (try mints, peppers and citrus oils for pest control) - with those few things, we don't need toxic pest controls.

I'm surprised myself, honestly, b'c we do not even get ants or roaches... unless we leave food out for a few days. We had a mouse(guessing more than one probably) a few years back and my sil was here and put one of those glue traps. I found the poor glued, yet alive, thing and had to drown it in the toilet & swore that I'd never do that to any creature again... so, luckily with the listed above, we've never had any more signs of mice. Just put all food in the fridge unless its canned or glass or plastic jars. Keep your house clean.

So, guess all I'm saying is that it is VERY possible to see one or two mice and then implement some humane cleanliness habits and then never have future problems. Its not totally unheard of, its my reality. Thank the stars!! I cannot handle to see the mice half alive in traps! I still think about that mouse! From my experiences in this life so far, in talking with others about this topic, I guess some people are simply more sensitive to animal suffering... (wish people would understand that, truthfully). I honestly *feel* the animal's pain. It is absolutely equal to human pain to me. I understand that animals have their own form of pain but are just as frightened and in pain as we get when hurt. Inflicting that pain purposefully upon another sentient being does not settle with me. It makes me research further on humane ways of living in a balance. I wish that was more widely understood and implemented. This is NOT to say that others' views are not respectable in my mind... everyone lives their own reality and I agree that if someone feels that they need to trap & kill, then they do need to do that. We live diversely... we all need to respect each other's differing views. If literally everyone were to implement no-kill solutions, that could become a very big problem as well.
post #91 of 126
was it something I said?? lol
post #92 of 126
Quote:
The worst problem I have had is once we had a mouse, but I liked the mouse and fed it and it was like a pet living in my wall. It was the only one I noticed. As far as pest problems, I've never had a problem keeping them away without killing them, and if killing them wasnt working I certainly wouldnt keep at it. But to each their own, I just have a hard buying it that the ONLY options are kill or let them take over completely or live in less then desirable living conditions. A lot of the changes in habitat they recommend suggest making your place a cleaner nicer place.
Ok we do kill mice in our house. As does our cat. Mice are not clean creatures and not something I want traipsing around my house stepping on everything my children touch. And who knows what kind of damage that mouse did to your walls.

At my house, where its very nice and clean, no garbage laying out btw, we have skunk issues. Skunks will kill cats, kill chickens, kill whatever. They're all over the entire area where I live. What would you suggest doing to discourage them to live there? We have an insane amount of squirrels as well that eat my garden and fruit trees. I certainly will not get rid of one of the best ways to feed my family.
post #93 of 126
dble post
post #94 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyantavid View Post
Ok we do kill mice in our house. As does our cat. Mice are not clean creatures and not something I want traipsing around my house stepping on everything my children touch. And who knows what kind of damage that mouse did to your walls.

At my house, where its very nice and clean, no garbage laying out btw, we have skunk issues. Skunks will kill cats, kill chickens, kill whatever. They're all over the entire area where I live. What would you suggest doing to discourage them to live there? We have an insane amount of squirrels as well that eat my garden and fruit trees. I certainly will not get rid of one of the best ways to feed my family.
well 1, I didn't have children at the time. 2, it wasn't my house, 3, it was a row home, so getting rid of the mice wouldn't mean the neighbors did, so there was no sure fire way to protect damage to the walls. 4, as its's been pointed out, even when you kill them they still come back or sometimes stick around just in fewer numbers, so its not like if only I had killed it then no damage would ever be done inside those walls.

as it's been said, if you want to kill them fine (but why not find a humane way to do that? - not beat it in the head with a stick, which as I said was my problem with what the OP's step dad did, aside from killing an animal in front of her children against his wishes) and the reality is, some people who feel strongly about the idea of killing animals do find other ways to ward them off. If I had a mouse "problem" I would do something about it. But it was a cute mouse, and I was a little sad when the cat killed it. I would NEVER suggest someone get rid of the best ways to feed their family. I am not sure where you read that suggestion in my replies.

That is terrible you have a skunk problem, and I am sorry for that. You may choose to kill them to keep their numbers down. I would choose another way. I am sure you don't beat them in the head with a stick over and over and over again until they are bleeding out the nose while children watch though. I'm sure the people here who are talking about trapping are not also talking about slowly killing the animal when they rid of them.
post #95 of 126
Quote:
well 1, I didn't have children at the time. 2, it wasn't my house
Awesome. And adults can get diseases from mice just as children can.

Quote:
as it's been said, if you want to kill them fine (but why not find a humane way to do that? - not beat it in the head with a stick, which as I said was my problem with what the OP's step dad did, aside from killing an animal in front of her children against his wishes) and the reality is, some people who feel strongly about the idea of killing animals do find other ways to ward them off.
I don't think anyone who kills pests around their home has a strong feeling about killing. They do it because it works. Is a live trap and then a bullet humane for skunks? I asked what you would recommend since you are so sure other ways would get rid of pests. But you haven't offered any suggestions other than keeping your home clean.

Quote:
I would NEVER suggest someone get rid of the best ways to feed their family. I am not sure where you read that suggestion in my replies.
You said change the habitat, clean the place up, etc. The fruit and vegetables are what attracts the squirrels, if I removed them, they wouldn't be quite so abundant. I guess you didn't outright say that, but thats what I deduced from what you were saying.

Quote:
I would choose another way.
Again, how? If other methods work better, please share?

For the record, if any animal, bird, creature of any kind is killed in front of my children, there will be an enormous dicussion about it. My kids know that we raise cows and pigs to eat. They know their food does not just grow out of a grocery store shelf. They know dh and I hunt and provide food from deer and elk. I don't think this has to be entirely damaging to children, it can incredibly educational. I won't let my kids grow up not knowing whats in their food or where it came from.
post #96 of 126
I did offer other suggestions, I'm not going to repeat myself for a 3rd time. If you are truly interested, LOOK IT UP. Thats what I did. If you are okay with killing them than do that. I don't judge you for it, and you shouldn't care even if I did. My problem was that he was beating the squirrel/gopher whatever over and over again in the head. It's a little animal, surely there is a faster way to kill it then that.

As it's been said, the mice are still there even if you do kill them when you find them, sometimes they come back. I wasn't having tea with the mouse. I have an outdoor cat who surely kills all kind of animals when out and about. The disease argument wont hold since whether I killed it or not would make no difference that it had been there and that there could be more.

It sounds like the advice you need more is the advice to not make assumptions. As for your pest problem, loko through the rest of this thread, read some books, and googlecan be your friend. In the end, if you choose to kill them, your decision - but surely it can be done without repeatedly hitting the small animal over and over and over again, creating the slow death process, and surely it can be done not in the presenceof children whose families DONT want them to see it. Your children, fine - you explain it to them and you believe in that kind of thing. But would you do it front of your neighbors child, even after their parent said "we would prefer to keep the death of animals away from our children for the time being" ???


I have no problem hunting for food. I couldn't do it personally, and it bothered me to see a deer bleeding out into a bucket below hanging in a shed, but I still ate the venison when it was served to me (and I thought it was good). No one had me watch while they hit the deer in the head over and over again though. The dear was shot. I've seen smaller animals killed during a survival course I took with my husband. They managed the kill with one whack, not a succession of beat on the head with a stick. ( I watched, but there was no way I would have done it myself. I took the course because it was something important to my husband, though I don't imagine I'll ever get stuck in the wilderness)
post #97 of 126
OP, sorry your kids had to see that. I'd be rather, um, ticked off that my family member did that in front of my child. I agree, there was probably a better way to end the animal's life and, certainly, the kids didn't have to be around to see it.

A quick word on "humane" methods of dealing with nuisance animals: live trap and release is not humane. It only makes humans feel better. Most of these kinds of animals--such as squirrels and raccoons--are very territorial. Dropping them off 10 miles away in some wooded area--likely another member of the same specie's territory--usually only results in the trapped/released animal being attacked, driven off, and eventually starving to death. It is not humane at all.
post #98 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommysarah5 View Post
In the end, if you choose to kill them, your decision - but surely it can be done without repeatedly hitting the small animal over and over and over again, creating the slow death process...
I am wondering about this, and didn't get clarification about the traps. I did get the feeling the traps were supposed to kill them and this one survived. If the OP's stepdad didn't have a gun or anything with him (assuming that the trap would kill the animal), then I can see finishing it off this way, because going back to the house to get the gun, and heading back outside, would probably leave it suffering longer than just hitting it. It does seem strange that he had to hit it more than once, I'll admit. I'm not really clear on exactly what happened (re: the nature of the traps or the "squirrel" being hit multiple times), or why, from the OP.
post #99 of 126
facts from the Born Free site:

"In opposing use of traps, we are in good company. A 1978 national survey conducted for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service by Yale University showed that 78% of respondents opposed the use of steel-jawed leghold traps. A 1996 poll by the Animal Welfare Institute had similar results, with 74% of Americans opposed to leghold traps. The American Veterinarian Association, the American Animal Hospital Association, the World Veterinary Association, and the National Animal Control Association all agree that leghold traps are inhumane. Body-gripping traps are indiscriminate. Many companion dogs and cats have been caught in these dreadful devices, and even with the help of frantic humans, they have died in shock and pain because these traps are nearly impossible to open without the correct key device to release the locking mechanism. These traps can and often do catch non-target wildlife species of no value to fur trappers, including birds and even rare and endangered animals.

Fact Sheet: Types of Traps

Learn more about the types of traps still used in the U.S.
We define "body-gripping traps" as leghold traps; neck snares; leg or foot snares; and Conibear and other traps designed to instantly kill by crushing the neck or torso of the animal. Some such devices may kill instantly but often the victims suffer severe physical injury, psychological trauma, thirst, hypothermia, and predation.

Trappers have designed a class of "quick-kill" traps that supposedly kill instantly by slamming shut on an animal's body, crushing vital organs. Like all traps, they don't always work as planned, often with horrific results. The animal may enter a "quick-kill" trap the wrong way, and is partly crushed, and dies slowly. Snow and ice conditions can prevent proper closure. Aquatic mammals, like beavers, reflexively close off their air passages when submerged, and slowly suffocate while frantically trying to reach the surface, dying in terror without actually drowning.

More Than 80 Countries Have Banned the Leghold Trap
Some 89 countries have banned the leghold trap, recognizing that it is a barbarically cruel device, and that wildlife management goals can be achieved without it. Countries that still allow leghold traps (for example, in the U.S. only 8 states have banned or severely restricted its use) are the main fur-producing jurisdictions, under intense pressure from the international fur industry to continue use of leghold and body-gripping traps."

Horrible.
post #100 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alyantavid View Post

For the record, if any animal, bird, creature of any kind is killed in front of my children, there will be an enormous dicussion about it. My kids know that we raise cows and pigs to eat. They know their food does not just grow out of a grocery store shelf. They know dh and I hunt and provide food from deer and elk. I don't think this has to be entirely damaging to children, it can incredibly educational. I won't let my kids grow up not knowing whats in their food or where it came from.
I let my children watch, on purpose, neighbors cleaning animals and fish they have captured to eat. Food doesn't come from grocery stores, it comes from life and I want them to know it and respect it. Very educational, and sometimes a catfish has to be beaten on the head. I explain that it is more humane.

However, while I grew up skinning rabbits and around hunting, I remember a rat who got out of the trap. He was running and my dad took a shovel to its head. It didn't die right away and he had to keep going and beating it in the head as now it was suffering. Me, a girl who was raised with hunting etc. screamed and cried. When killing an animal if it isn't done fast it is sad and scary.

I am all for killing vermin and pests and hunting of food and not keeping it hidden from children, but some things happen that are sad (the deer shot in the ear and screams, the gopher that just won't die, etc.) that are things to be discussed if witnessed. And if a parent doesn't want to share that information with their children this should be respected!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Parenting
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Parenting › My sons witnessed animal abuse.