Parents with 2-plus kids, what do you do when...

[peaceful_mama]

You are in public, you are the only adult. The kids are behaving inappropriately for the situation. You ask them to stop/start doing XYZ. One child insists on NOT doing what you have asked, the other(s) change their behavior.

In my case, the kids in question are a 2 year old, who I realize probably genuinely does not know better--but this is why I need to enforce some sort of consequence for the behavior, so she learns that she really CAN'T just ignore me.
And a 4 year old who I see is working very hard to act appropriately so that he CAN go places with me.

We ran into this in the grocery store this morning. My 4 year old was obviously working hard to follow the 'rules' and had changed his behavior. It seems totally unfair then to force him to also leave.

What I ended up doing since I had my mom with me was finish what *I* absolutely had to do (while telling 2 year old we were going to leave if she did not stay in the bus cart they wanted) and then I took them both out (leaving baby DS with mom) while my mom went through the checkout.

but what do I do if I'm alone?? doesn't it just tell DS1 he might as well also not change his behavior if I end up taking them both out because of DD?

[Fuamami]

Be glad they're not ganging up on you? Bribe one of them with a piece of candy?

Seriously, I have found no good solution to this. We also live out of town so we don't really have the option of running back over to the store after dh gets home. I've probably pissed off more store clerks than I could count because I just push through and get the shopping done. I try really hard to head off behavior issues with the 2 year old, and plan carefully, and sometimes it just doesn't work.

I have found that sometimes, with 3 kids, discipline gets a little messy. It's just not possible to be as consistent as you can be with just one, and sometimes one (or two) kids get the short end of the stick because of the crankiness of another. I just hope that it all evens out, and remember that at least they can commiserate and hash out their upbringing together as adults

[Just1More]

Yeah, we have this, too.

I've changed the consequence. Instead of "if you won't stop then we'll have to leave" I say, "If you won't walk nicely by the cart, you'll have to ride up here." (or whatever...hold my hand, be carried, ride in the backpack, etc.) Then, screaming or whatever else...I stick to it, dirty looks from others or not.

But...mine are also 4, 2, and 4 months...I'll let you know how it turns out in another 20 years or so.

[dimibella]

Sadly I do resort to bribery, a la, "so and so, look how nicely so and so is sitting(walking, whatev), I think I will get him/her a treat, would like to sit nicely and get a treat too? Though for whatever reason my kids actually behave in public for the most part, it's just at home that they decide to be crazy.

[rabbitmum]

If both go wild I put the smallest one (3) in the cart and hold the biggest (4) one's hand. If only the smallest one goes wild I tell him he has to hold my hand or sit in the cart. If only the biggest one goes wild I tell her to hold my hand.

If everything is impossible and we have to leave, I say "I can't have you (both) running wild in the shop so we have to just go outside". (This hasn't happened for many years, though - since my now grown up daughter was little!) It is not a punishment and it's not like it is usually such great fun to be in the shop, so the well-behaved party (if any such exists) most often doesn't really have any reason to feel bad about it.

In our family the youngest is the most likely to run off etc., and I think an older child usually understands that one has to expect some unforeseen events with a younger child. If it came to a situation where I thought she felt that it was unfair, I would apologise to her and explain that we had to leave because the situation wasn't safe / was bothering other people in the shop / was getting too difficult for me.

I never buy them treats to eat in the shop. We go shopping for food almost every day and I think it's important that they learn "good shop behaviour". I don't drag them around on extended shopping trips though!

[mbhf]

Originally Posted by peaceful_mama

but what do I do if I'm alone?? doesn't it just tell DS1 he might as well also not change his behavior if I end up taking them both out because of DD?

In my experience, it doesn't work that way. I have only had to leave a store for behavioral issues 2 or 3 times (my kids are 6, 4, 2 1/2, and 8mo FWIW) and while the other kids have been disappointed, I apologized to them and made sure they understood why we were leaving. I have definitely seen my older two remind each other of my expectations.

I tell them before we get out of the car (every single time, if I don't, it shows) what we are doing, why we are doing it, and what they need to do to make the trip pleasant for everyone. It really helps.

[SamGroom]

Originally Posted by mbhf

In my experience, it doesn't work that way. I have only had to leave a store for behavioral issues 2 or 3 times (my kids are 6, 4, 2 1/2, and 8mo FWIW) and while the other kids have been disappointed, I apologized to them and made sure they understood why we were leaving. I have definitely seen my older two remind each other of my expectations.

I tell them before we get out of the car (every single time, if I don't, it shows) what we are doing, why we are doing it, and what they need to do to make the trip pleasant for everyone. It really helps.

[jillmamma]

Originally Posted by mbhf

In my experience, it doesn't work that way. I have only had to leave a store for behavioral issues 2 or 3 times (my kids are 6, 4, 2 1/2, and 8mo FWIW) and while the other kids have been disappointed, I apologized to them and made sure they understood why we were leaving. I have definitely seen my older two remind each other of my expectations.

I tell them before we get out of the car (every single time, if I don't, it shows) what we are doing, why we are doing it, and what they need to do to make the trip pleasant for everyone. It really helps.

Mine are 6.5, almost 4, and gestating, and I remind the older ones that I need their help in the store or whereever by having them stay close, do not touch things that don't belong to them, and be nice to each other, and usually we get by without too much trouble. If things get really crazy, I apologize to the one who is behaving nicely and tell the other one that we have to leave because we are not acting nice. The reminders (as long as I remember them, LOL) really do help. Also, if we have multiple errands, doing the least fun one first, and reminding them if they behave nicely then we can go to xxx helps. Good luck! I am sure with 4 it can be even more challenging.

[Emerging butterfly]

Hi! I have five boys...19,13,10,8, and 5. My 19 year old is bi-polar, so I have to admit that the manners of the 4 younger guys have always seemed mild in comparison....Never the less, I have had a fair amount of grocery store experience, and my share of embarressing moments where my troup was raceing through the store as a pack. I have made it clear over the years (and often before I enter the store) that I am much more prone to buy foods my children like...aka NOT mushrooms, squash, and tomatoes, if they are behaiving, and am likewise more likely to make dessert later if they have earned "brownie points", which are only earned when mommy is in a good mood, which doesn't happen if she is embarressed and irritated by her kids. ha ha ha. My eldest now calls the brownie points "brown nose points", which, in truth, IS what they are...but...they have worked for me. There isn't a child, or man in this home that wants to find out that I would have made brownies with almond butter, almond extract, dried cherries and white chocolate drizzle, but....decided not to, based on the fact that I was wiped out from a crazy time at the grocery store. I find that my children are good at keeping each other in line now, reminding each other to "behaive". It all started with a process called shapeing, which is a specific kind of behaivioristic psychological-cognitive method (just to give it a fancy impressive sounding name. I no longer have to give out treats as a bonus, and can now use the "brownie points" as random, airless, untangable
ideas of a future dessert, which I DO make from time to time.

Now with a two year old....the beauty of that age is that they know what they want to do, and it often conflicts with what you have in mind. Is there any way to let him pick up the groceries, and hand them to you to put in the cart? That will give him something grown up to do...and maybe, just for a while, you will reward him with a tiny handful of chocolate chips dispersed at intervals. You can do this in a "shapeing" format...a psychology term...You reward the desired behaivior in approximations, for example, you start with a behavior he is naturally being well behaived with...like, if he was calm and well mannered for the first minute, you would at the store, reward him then (you must be prepaired to catch him being good) and say how pleased you are to see him walking so calmly in the store beside you (give treat to any well behaved child in the family with same response...like...even just ONE m&m will work per reward...seriously..do not underestimate the power of ONE chocolate chip, or M&M!!). Do this periodically during the trip, making it clear to both children that you are rewarding good behaivior. This might mean that the 2 year old does sometimes see his older sib getting a treat when he does NOT.
Then you explain that good behaivior is being rewarded again. etc etc...eventually, you start to spread out the rewards over a period of several shopping trips, not as frequent, not as regular...the unexpected nature of the treat is key. Eventually, you will only give out treats in the car ride home as a reward for consistant behaivior, being careful not to nit pick too much. Soon, you will spread even that out with just praise for behaivior that is appropriate for public outings...don't use the words "Good boy or girl" that is a commentary on the persons inherent worth..rather, remark on behaivior and how it does or does not please you.

Sooo....this has been something that has been exceedingly effective for my kids...especially the bi-polar guy...AND for many of my girlfriends children,it is obviously extensive, but is no different than training a pet really...you are shaping behaivior, and children are able to be shaped somewhat. . .at least where manners are concerned. Take care not to over-do this, or it won't work.

I hope this wasn't over-kill.

[Emerging butterfly]

P.S.

It is important to not give in to yelling, as this is ALSO a type of reinforcement...it gives your child a lot of power to be able to make you pull your hair out. No...if he misbehaives, you simply turn to the child that IS behaiving and say, "Oh, I see that you are behaiving so well in the store right now. Here is a treat for that". If the other child stops in his tracks and wants a treat too..you say "Of course you can have a treat! as soon as I see you walking calmly next to mama." and then, even after a few moments, you give the treat to both of them again. Good luck.

[just_lily]

I only have one child of my own, but as a home daycare provider I usually have a lot more kids with me when we are out and about. I think if one child is really misbehaving and won't listen to warnings and reason, you have to leave. Even if it isn't fair to the other kids.

I don't think it sends the message to the behaving child that they might as well misbehave instead. I am concerned that if you don't act you are showing the misbehaving child that they can just go ahead and misbehave and it doesn't matter, as long as you are out and about.

When we have had to leave places (usually the park, and most often due to a child being repeatedly mean to other children, or repeatedly doing unsafe things) I apologize to the other kids that have to leave, and usually ask (not force) the misbehaving child to apologize to the other kids as well. I only have had to do it a couple of times, and now simply have to remind them of them times we had to leave, and all of a sudden everyone is very cooperative.

In my experience you have to use the group dynamics to your advantage. The other children will be upset about having to leave, and will likely encourage better behaviour in ALL of the kids next time you are out, especially if they are older. Of course it isn't "fair", but you have to work with what you have.

[Xoe]

.....not listening to mama??? in the cart you go!

[peaceful_mama]

Originally Posted by mbhf

In my experience, it doesn't work that way. I have only had to leave a store for behavioral issues 2 or 3 times (my kids are 6, 4, 2 1/2, and 8mo FWIW) and while the other kids have been disappointed, I apologized to them and made sure they understood why we were leaving. I have definitely seen my older two remind each other of my expectations.

I tell them before we get out of the car (every single time, if I don't, it shows) what we are doing, why we are doing it, and what they need to do to make the trip pleasant for everyone. It really helps.

I just had to say that my 3 are exactly the same ages as your younger 3 if you didn't notice (or maybe I didn't say originally )

and I do sometimes do the speech in the car thing....I really should be more consistent with it, especially since it works *extremely* well. (My first experience with this was right after ds2 was born, we all had to go to a doc appt. for some reason and I told them what I expected, followed with "If this goes well, we will go to playgroup when we are done, if not, we will go home." I had the best-behaved little crew I've ever had

[peaceful_mama]

Originally Posted by Xoe

.....not listening to mama??? in the cart you go!

yeah easier said than done, the kids picked out the little schoolbus cart, with the two 'driver seats' down low in front. This cart is smaller, at least in actual cart space for food....so that space was filled with food. yes, it had a seat up top, but that's where the *baby* was.
And I have to drive this thing. If you have not steered a schoolbus cart (or a fire engine, or a racecar, or a police car, take your pick) it's not a one-handed job by any means. They're heavy and hard to steer.

I think a lot of people here are right though and maybe we will just have to leave.

And quite possibly, I **will** do a 'special treat' for my listening 4 year old. (We've had major issues with that in public until just recently that's why I don't want to do ANYTHING to discourage him)

But I will not do a treat for one and not the other right in the store. Why, you ask? Because the rest of the shoppers would converge to run us out of the place due to the ensuing TANTRUM. With some kids, yeah, that might work. I've seen it in preschool.
MY child however, gives a whole new meaning to "Determined." If I were to give her brother an MnM and not her, she would scream and kick on the ground in full fury worse than whatever she was doing in the first place. I won't rule it out ENTIRELY as she would definently be motivated by candy, but given her personality, I highly suspect she would not give up and walk holding my hand and then get the candy. I'd have to give up the treat first. THEN I might be able to get somewhere.

She really is smart though, I might try it at home and see if she "gets it" first...she MIGHT just surprise me, understand, and quickly get with the program.

[~Katie~]

I'm currently parenting a newborn and almost 2 year old on my own and have to get pretty creative with things like grocery shopping, simply because there is no one else to do it for me or to help with the kids.

Its definitely been a learning process, but I've found that explaining the rules ahead of time to DS really helps. He likes outings but has a problem with impulse control, if he knows that breaking the rules results in leaving then he's more likely to follow the rules. We've had to leave public situations a few times but he learned very quickly after doing so. It stinks to have to leave when I need to get things done but I can always go to the grocery store the next day if I have to, and he's more likely to remember having to leave the previous day and not wanting to repeat that. The trick is being VERY consistent with it, every outing needs to have the rules explained ahead of time and followed through every time.

Food is also a good deterrent while in the grocery store, so I save special treats to occupy him while we're shopping or running other errands. I will happily resort to bribery when the situation warrants it. I took this tip from Dr. Sears also and it works pretty well: DS has a favorite kind of ice cream bar, so I remind him if he starts getting out of control that once we get to the end of the grocery store to the freezer section we'll buy it but if he misbehaves we'll have to leave and we won't be able to get any ice cream.

You just have to remind yourself that you're not always in a perfect situation to do things exactly as you would want to sometimes, you're only one person with three children to tend to. Sometimes there will be meltdowns in public and it won't always be your proudest moment but everybody learns to adjust eventually and at the end of the day they won't hate you for it.

[swd12422]

Originally Posted by peaceful_mama

...
But I will not do a treat for one and not the other right in the store. ....

Mom of an only here, so take this with a grain of salt...
Why not just have the candy in your purse/car or buy a little bag at the checkout and give the treats to the well-behaved once everyone is in the car and the trip is (almost) over? Then there's no scene in the store, just in the car, and the reward is given when you're finished needing them to behave in the store.

I had to laugh at your suspicions of how the reward for your DD would end up a bribe in advance... This is how it was training our dog! He wouldn't do anything unless he knew I had a treat in hand. Then it became a game of trying to get the treat w/o doing what I wanted him to do. I finally resorted to no treats for awhile and then treats at the end of the walk instead of along the way, b/c he'd refuse to continue walking knowing I had treats with me! I'm now seeing similar behaviors in my son...

[peaceful_mama]

that is a good idea, having a reward for the one who follows the rules in the car, where nobody has to see the reaction of the one who does not get it.

She MIGHT get that. it's at least worth a shot. Or she might be so caught up in the fact that she is not getting whatever it is that her only thought is in that moment and it does not connect to what went on back in the store....that is what I suspect it would be actually. She is, after all, exactly 330 months. Exactly 2 1/2 rather than closer to 3. 3 (or about 3 developmentally) is when I remember seeing this tactic work with some of my preschoolers. (special needs involved, so while we did not have kids under 3, we had kids who were not at a 3 year old developmental level)

you're right, i do have all 3 of them. Life is not always going to be fair, if we define "fair" as "exactly equal". But everyone WILL usually get their NEEDS met, and as far as WANTS go, in the end it will all balance out. And seriously, if the only thing my oldest has to complain to a therapist about in 20 years is that his mom made him leave places when he was behaving but his younger sibling was pitching a fit, then really, I can't have gone too far wrong!

[rabbitmum]

Originally Posted by peaceful_mama

Or she might be so caught up in the fact that she is not getting whatever it is that her only thought is in that moment and it does not connect to what went on back in the store....that is what I suspect it would be actually. She is, after all, exactly 330 months. Exactly 2 1/2 rather than closer to 3. 3 (or about 3 developmentally) is when I remember seeing this tactic work with some of my preschoolers. (special needs involved, so while we did not have kids under 3, we had kids who were not at a 3 year old developmental level)

I think so too. I think letting one see that the other gets a treat, while he/she is denied one, is more of a punishment to the one than a treat to the other. I think it is cruel, and I think the one that actually gets a treat will feel bad about it, too. How can he/she enjoy a treat, seeing the other one crying because of it? I think this is really a way of setting up rivalry among siblings.

The thing that will stick in the child's mind is "I am not as good as him/her, mummy loves him/her more." The disappointment will far overshadow the "learning point".

If you can't do this in front of people, I don't think it is right to do it in the car either.

The relationship to a parent is and should be very different from the relationship to a teacher or daycare provider.

[phathui5]

yeah easier said than done, the kids picked out the little schoolbus cart, with the two 'driver seats' down low in front. This cart is smaller, at least in actual cart space for food....so that space was filled with food. yes, it had a seat up top, but that's where the *baby* was.

If they can't listen in that kind of cart, I wouldn't make it an option in the future. You may need to wear the baby, stick the 2 year old in a regular cart seat and have the 4 year old walk holding the side of the cart.

[elisheva]

s, mama. I'll be in this situation in a few months Ds1 (2.5) is already a hadful at the grocery store. If we're running in quickly(4-5 items), I let him walk and ds2 (10mo) rides in the cart. On longer trips he has a tendency to run off which, as you know, is VERY difficult because it's hard enough to chase a 2 year old let alone when the baby is strapped into the grocery cart and has to be undone before you can really run after him...but I digress.

I've come to the conclusion that, at 2.5, ds1 just isn't mature enough to handle long grocery trips. It's boring. I'm stressed out trying to hurry and it just ends up taking longer. My solution is to go more often on shorter trips, generally. When longer trips are necessary, I wear the baby and put ds1 in the stroller with all the straps on so he can't climb out (he would climb out of the straps in a grocery cart). I have a double stroller, so I have generally enough space for what I need since I can't push a cart and stroller at teh same time...

The other thing I've done is to either have a snack ready to bring into the store with us (nuts, raisins, other small finger food in a container) OR I ask him before we go in if we should get a special box of "cookies" for him while we shop (usually the Healthy Times teething biscuits) - I open the package and let him eat cookies since the box still scans the same and we still pay for the cookies at the end of the trip. It buys a little time anyway and doesn't seem like a bribe since we often have snacks in lots of different settings.

I know everyone's situation is different, but I hope you find something that works for you!