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post #121 of 186
good question. if someone had offered to help, I think it would have depended on the day. some days I just fell into a pit of despair and self-pity (not proud of it, but it's true) and I might have taken it the wrong way and snapped. other days I would have probably cried with gratitude. other days I would have cheerfully said "thank you SO much!" and asked them to grab a few things off the shelves within reach of where they were standing, and promised to pass the favor on someday when I could. kindness can never hurt.

pre-kid I was super judgmental of basically all parents. then I got my humbling experience. sometimes I try to remember that mean people just haven't gotten their humbling experience... YET. heh heh. maybe it's evil to take satisfaction in knowing that pretty much everybody becomes more insightful over time, whether they like it or not. I don't know. but I think it's good to see everyone as works in progress, even people who disagree with me :P or who behave unkindly. on my good days, I do remember that.
post #122 of 186
What would I have done in the OP's situation?

First I would get near the family and "listen", pick up on subtle cues, and see if there was some way I could help. There have been plenty of times when I see a parent shopping alone, and the child is fussing, when I'm able to entertain or distract the LO and make for a more smooth shopping experience all around. But there are other times when I get vibes that it's best not to interfere, and then I won't say anything.

If I heard a child screaming for more than 10 or 15 minutes, and there were TWO adults there, and I got "don't interfere" vibes from those adults, I would have asked a store employee to handle the situation. Let the manager ask them to take the child outside, and not risk my own personal safety.

When it was my own child doing the screaming, I'd do everything in my power to calm the child down (including giving them space or "riding out a tantrum" when appropriate- but that's never been longer than 10 minutes IME.) If the child couldn't calm down in a reasonable amount of time, I'd hurry up and finish my shopping as fast as possible.

Usually it was NOT reasonable to abandon my shopping and go another day, as whatever problem the child had would still be there the next day, and we'd already done half the shopping (so why repeat the entire experience the next day when I can finish up in 5 minutes today?) Plus, if I was in the store with an overtired or sick toddler, chances are I'd already put off the shopping as long as possible (waiting for "the right time to shop" that never came) and we desperately needed the groceries.
post #123 of 186
Earplugs. Easier for an individual to use than for frazzled parents to handle grocery shopping, a grumpy toddler and whatever else is going on in their lives that we, noise-sensitive strangers, are not privy to.
post #124 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainyday View Post
What about kindness to every other shopper or employee in that store?

<snip>
Quote:
Originally Posted by AverysMomma View Post
<snip Kindness gets you a long way, I've learned. Kindness, in the face of a situation where you really don't even HAVE to be kind...where most people would say that you have a right to be UNKIND...gets you even further, at least in my book.

<snip>
^Kindness is always cool, even when someone is being thoughtless with your personal enjoyment of shared space. How lucky for my throbbing fingers, that I have already answered the question you asked...out of curiosity: What do you say to your children...when you tell them to stop bickering and one of them offers up the ole "He staaaaarted it!!" - because that's essentially what you're saying here.

"Her child annoyed me and my perception, is that she doesn't care and isn't responding properly, so I should feel free to judge her, glare at her and/or ask her to leave a space I don't even own" - right, because this makes you look any better?



Come on mamas, it's called radical acceptance...look it up. Crap happens. Other peoples kids noises are harder to tolerate than our own. Some men smell bad...sometimes a young man ogles you without shame in the freezer isle. One time a lady I had never seen before, tried to feed a big huge piece of cheddarworst to my baby, after I clearly said "she doesn't eat that sort of thing" - Welcome to Earth, what you are about to experience is called life...sometimes it;s fantastic, sometimes it's really freakin' annoying. When you go into public...guess who you meet there? THE PUBLIC! "The Public" are loud, they chew gum obnoxiously, they scream at their kids in the parking lot, they whine, they yell into their cell phones, or worse yet...those earbug cells, that you can't even SEE! UGH! They do all sorts of things which drive. you. crazy.

Here;s the thing....YOU do things that drive THEM crazy, too. Like..when you're walking along in the isle and your son, who is learning to whistle, strikes up a tune as he merrily walks along...and you think "wow, he's getting so good at that" and smile, so proud at your boy....and down the isle...a man is turning to his wife, and says "I wish someone would stop that god awful screeching...look at that mother, she's smiling, she doesn't even care, I shouldn't have to listen to that when I'm out, I can hardly think!" - See, YOU are "The Public" to someone else!

I say, and I mean this...get over it. How many times a week is this happening to you, that you mamas can even GET that upset about it! This is not happening in your living room...this is happening in a space which does not belong to you, which you are vouluntarily entering, KNOWING that you could be confronted with something obnoxious.

Yeah, if they really were able bodied, and they really could have had one of them take the kid outside, etc etc...it's rude. Okay, there you have it...they were rude. but so is the guy who makes that snorting sound and then spits a big phlem ball out of his mouth onto the ground right next to you. So is the man, who didn't wear underwear and has baggy pants on and gives you an eyefull, so is the lady who cuts her car in front of you into the space you just waited so patiently for....if you walk around angry and judging these people all the time, I have two thoughts for you:

1. Be careful, because judgment and anger are poison to your soul, and

2. try not to ever have a bad day....because it stinks when you do and people glare at you when everything is going wrong and your kid is crying and you're running late, etc.

I'll tell you, I don't know how the universe works, I wouldn't pretend to KNOW if there is such a thing as getting back what you put out...but I try, just in case, to put out good energy..I figure, worse case scenario, I went through my life with mercy, forgiveness, grace and good will toward man. Even really rude ones.
post #125 of 186
AverysMomma,
post #126 of 186
[QUOTE=AverysMomma;14065131

1. Be careful, because judgment and anger are poison to your soul, and

2. try not to ever have a bad day....because it stinks when you do and people glare at you when everything is going wrong and your kid is crying and you're running late, etc.

I'll tell you, I don't know how the universe works, I wouldn't pretend to KNOW if there is such a thing as getting back what you put out...but I try, just in case, to put out good energy..I figure, worse case scenario, I went through my life with mercy, forgiveness, grace and good will toward man. Even really rude ones.[/QUOTE]

I loved your whole post. AverysMomma, you ROCK. seriously.

life just needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I don't manage this daily or even often, but I sure do try.
post #127 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by AverysMomma View Post
^Kindness is always cool, even when someone is being thoughtless with your personal enjoyment of shared space. How lucky for my throbbing fingers, that I have already answered the question you asked...out of curiosity: What do you say to your children...when you tell them to stop bickering and one of them offers up the ole "He staaaaarted it!!" - because that's essentially what you're saying here.

"Her child annoyed me and my perception, is that she doesn't care and isn't responding properly, so I should feel free to judge her, glare at her and/or ask her to leave a space I don't even own" - right, because this makes you look any better?



Come on mamas, it's called radical acceptance...look it up. Crap happens. Other peoples kids noises are harder to tolerate than our own. Some men smell bad...sometimes a young man ogles you without shame in the freezer isle. One time a lady I had never seen before, tried to feed a big huge piece of cheddarworst to my baby, after I clearly said "she doesn't eat that sort of thing" - Welcome to Earth, what you are about to experience is called life...sometimes it;s fantastic, sometimes it's really freakin' annoying. When you go into public...guess who you meet there? THE PUBLIC! "The Public" are loud, they chew gum obnoxiously, they scream at their kids in the parking lot, they whine, they yell into their cell phones, or worse yet...those earbug cells, that you can't even SEE! UGH! They do all sorts of things which drive. you. crazy.

Here;s the thing....YOU do things that drive THEM crazy, too. Like..when you're walking along in the isle and your son, who is learning to whistle, strikes up a tune as he merrily walks along...and you think "wow, he's getting so good at that" and smile, so proud at your boy....and down the isle...a man is turning to his wife, and says "I wish someone would stop that god awful screeching...look at that mother, she's smiling, she doesn't even care, I shouldn't have to listen to that when I'm out, I can hardly think!" - See, YOU are "The Public" to someone else!

I say, and I mean this...get over it. How many times a week is this happening to you, that you mamas can even GET that upset about it! This is not happening in your living room...this is happening in a space which does not belong to you, which you are vouluntarily entering, KNOWING that you could be confronted with something obnoxious.

Yeah, if they really were able bodied, and they really could have had one of them take the kid outside, etc etc...it's rude. Okay, there you have it...they were rude. but so is the guy who makes that snorting sound and then spits a big phlem ball out of his mouth onto the ground right next to you. So is the man, who didn't wear underwear and has baggy pants on and gives you an eyefull, so is the lady who cuts her car in front of you into the space you just waited so patiently for....if you walk around angry and judging these people all the time, I have two thoughts for you:

1. Be careful, because judgment and anger are poison to your soul, and

2. try not to ever have a bad day....because it stinks when you do and people glare at you when everything is going wrong and your kid is crying and you're running late, etc.

I'll tell you, I don't know how the universe works, I wouldn't pretend to KNOW if there is such a thing as getting back what you put out...but I try, just in case, to put out good energy..I figure, worse case scenario, I went through my life with mercy, forgiveness, grace and good will toward man. Even really rude ones.
Totally agree.

And I did look up radical acceptance
http://www.ehow.com/how_2078558_prac...cceptance.html

Did you read the book, AM?
post #128 of 186
magstphil: thanks for the link! that info now lives on my refrigerator door.
post #129 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
I get that. But as the OP stated she was just wondering why if there were two parents one didn't take the toddler out. I actually think that is a valid question. Now that doesn't mean I think she or anyone else has the right to sit and say these parents are bad or go up to them and say something rude but it does make me wonder why if there were TWO parents they just went on with it and for an hour no less. There could be a million reasons which is why the blind judgment is never a good idea but I guess I just don't see it as these posters really coming down hard on the parents- especially the OP.

And hey I am sick of threads like that too but it is what it is and they really do tend to turn into one big cesspool of judgment on both sides. I just feel like not all people who come here venting about others are doing so to feel superior or are looking down their nose. Sometimes people just need to vent.
Maybe I didn't make myself totally clear. I understand venting and coming here. What is bothering me is not necessarily the OP, but all the posters saying they'd demand the child leave. I just think that's crappy.
post #130 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Aimee* View Post
Maybe I didn't make myself totally clear. I understand venting and coming here. What is bothering me is not necessarily the OP, but all the posters saying they'd demand the child leave. I just think that's crappy.
I have to agree there.
post #131 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by magstphil View Post
Totally agree.

And I did look up radical acceptance
http://www.ehow.com/how_2078558_prac...cceptance.html

Did you read the book, AM?
Haha! I love that you found that link!!

I used to be a person who suffered near crippling anxiety...I used to get SO twisted up inside over things...actually, the grocery store used to be a real nightmare for me and one day, I was in therapy and I was LOSING it..telling my therapist about something which had happened "to" me:

A woman behind me in the check out line was a "Creeper"....I wasn't half way through my transaction before she was creeping up on me, ready to pay for her own. I was finished paying and trying to stuff my change, etc into my wallet, and the man started ringing in her stuff and she was almost pushing me, physically, out of the way to get in front of the pay station....I almost cried...instead I sputtered out something very strange, not words, just..like, gutteral, raw, emotion...and gave her a look (which Im sure was a look of pure murder and hatred) and felt like I wanted to just, KILL her.....


My therapist chose that day, to begin a new chapter in our work together. She said "What we're going to talk about is called radical acceptance, have you heard of that" - my life totally changed that day. I'm serious....hand to the stars...I'm telling the truth, my. life. changed. It was like all along,I'd been waiting for someone to give me permission to let go and just accept life as it came to me.

I completed years of therapy, and Dialectical Behavioral Therapy as well....which I did in an intense, once weekly, one on one, year long treatment. I HIGHLY recommend it, for people who live in the tortured, crazy mind of an adult living in the confusion and aftermath of an abusive childhood. I totally reprogrammed my brain and my entire life changed. It just so happen, that over the same years that I was experiencing a huge shift in my thinking and ability to cope with life, I was also experiencing a spiritual explosion! I shed all my religion and perceptions of any god, etc. and just started believing in people, in GOOD and in living through love. I came out of all of it, a happy, confident person....who is finally capable of only giving love to people who love me back, in the healthy way that I deserve. You would never in a million years, seeing how high on love I am now, how committed I am to only allowing healthy people in my life....you would never guess how low my lows have been.

So...as a person who used to walk around SO angry, judging, ranting in my mind about the world, taking everything...no matter how completely disconnected frommy life that it was...taking EVERYTHING as if it were being pointed at me....I can honestly say, that living in love and practicing a radical acceptance of the world and al lthe people in it, is the better way to live.

I'm not perfect, I still get angry at stupid stuff, that is what it means to be human...but really, since I started letting go of stuff more than holding on...my life is like a freakin' carnival ride!! (in a good way!) I keep myself open to love and awesome, fun possiblities.....and guess what? All that love and all those awesome possibilities just come a'roooolllin in!!
post #132 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Aimee* View Post
Maybe I didn't make myself totally clear. I understand venting and coming here. What is bothering me is not necessarily the OP, but all the posters saying they'd demand the child leave. I just think that's crappy.
I do not think a single person said they'd demand the child leave. One person said she'd suggest to the parents that maybe they take the child out and others agreed. Suggesting and demanding are completely different.
post #133 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapphire_chan View Post
Two parents and the people didn't have one parent take the kid out of the store while the other continued shopping? What was WRONG with those people?

One parent, I would've been sympathetic and assumed the kid would just freak out worse if picked up. Two parents, I would've been sympathetic for 5 minutes.

And after 10 minutes, I would've gone over and said something like "Hi, could one of you please take your kid outside?" Hoping that either they'd 1. do it. Or 2. get so mad about someone telling them what do to that I could relieve some frustration by yelling back at them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinder View Post
I do not think a single person said they'd demand the child leave. One person said she'd suggest to the parents that maybe they take the child out and others agreed. Suggesting and demanding are completely different.

The first response I quoted sounds like a demand to me. A politely worded one but a demand nonetheless. And really, saying this to the parents in the hopes that you could get into a screaming match with them in order to release some of YOUR frustration? That's a pretty crappy suggestion.
post #134 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by AverysMomma View Post
^Kindness is always cool, even when someone is being thoughtless with your personal enjoyment of shared space.

I'll tell you, I don't know how the universe works, I wouldn't pretend to KNOW if there is such a thing as getting back what you put out...but I try, just in case, to put out good energy..I figure, worse case scenario, I went through my life with mercy, forgiveness, grace and good will toward man. Even really rude ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magella View Post
AverysMomma,


I quote you a lot, Averys Momma.
Now if only my husband could adopt the attitude I highlighted with bold in your quote
post #135 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by AverysMomma View Post
Haha! I love that you found that link!!

I used to be a person who suffered near crippling anxiety...I used to get SO twisted up inside over things...actually, the grocery store used to be a real nightmare for me and one day, I was in therapy and I was LOSING it..telling my therapist about something which had happened "to" me:

A woman behind me in the check out line was a "Creeper"....I wasn't half way through my transaction before she was creeping up on me, ready to pay for her own. I was finished paying and trying to stuff my change, etc into my wallet, and the man started ringing in her stuff and she was almost pushing me, physically, out of the way to get in front of the pay station....I almost cried...instead I sputtered out something very strange, not words, just..like, gutteral, raw, emotion...and gave her a look (which Im sure was a look of pure murder and hatred) and felt like I wanted to just, KILL her.....


My therapist chose that day, to begin a new chapter in our work together. She said "What we're going to talk about is called radical acceptance, have you heard of that" - my life totally changed that day. I'm serious....hand to the stars...I'm telling the truth, my. life. changed. It was like all along,I'd been waiting for someone to give me permission to let go and just accept life as it came to me.

I completed years of therapy, and Dialectical Behavioral Therapy as well....which I did in an intense, once weekly, one on one, year long treatment. I HIGHLY recommend it, for people who live in the tortured, crazy mind of an adult living in the confusion and aftermath of an abusive childhood. I totally reprogrammed my brain and my entire life changed. It just so happen, that over the same years that I was experiencing a huge shift in my thinking and ability to cope with life, I was also experiencing a spiritual explosion! I shed all my religion and perceptions of any god, etc. and just started believing in people, in GOOD and in living through love. I came out of all of it, a happy, confident person....who is finally capable of only giving love to people who love me back, in the healthy way that I deserve. You would never in a million years, seeing how high on love I am now, how committed I am to only allowing healthy people in my life....you would never guess how low my lows have been.

So...as a person who used to walk around SO angry, judging, ranting in my mind about the world, taking everything...no matter how completely disconnected frommy life that it was...taking EVERYTHING as if it were being pointed at me....I can honestly say, that living in love and practicing a radical acceptance of the world and al lthe people in it, is the better way to live.

I'm not perfect, I still get angry at stupid stuff, that is what it means to be human...but really, since I started letting go of stuff more than holding on...my life is like a freakin' carnival ride!! (in a good way!) I keep myself open to love and awesome, fun possiblities.....and guess what? All that love and all those awesome possibilities just come a'roooolllin in!!

:
post #136 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lotusdebi View Post
I agreed with other posts in this thread, but picked this one to quote because of the anger behind it. I'm feeling that same anger.

My oldest child has autism and sensory issues. I did not know that when he was an infant and a toddler. I was severely sleep-deprived (often to the point of psychosis) for the first few YEARS of his life because the child never slept. He cried, arched his back, was never comfortable, couldn't stay still, was a difficult nurser, and generally made my life a living hell. There was no such thing as an easy outing with him. But, we had to get out of the house. I had to get out of the house simply so I wouldn't lose my mind and kill us all some days.

If you have a child who has the occasional tantrum due to teething or tiredness or not getting what he wants, then good for you. My second is like that. It's incredibly easy raising a kid like that. You can come back to the store another day. You can hand the kid over to your partner. You know it's a temporary situation.

But if you have a child like my eldest, whose behaviors made no sense, who drove you to the point of madness on a constant basis, who never slept and never seemed to be happy except when doing dangerous things... then maybe you can understand the frustration that many of us on this thread are feeling at the judgmental posts about this couple.

Maybe the child described in the OP doesn't have special needs. Maybe the parents had other options. But, maybe things aren't always as they seem, and your judgment towards them is truly unacceptable and harmful.

I was blamed for my eldest child's behaviors. For years, I heard about how I was such a bad parent, how I should discipline him more, how I was screwing up so badly. I lost faith in myself. I am still plagued with self-doubt years later, even though I know now that all those judgmental people were wrong. Those words and attitudes brought significant harm to me and my relationship with my child. I will not forgive those who chose to judge rather than show compassion and understanding. I will sit in judgment of all of you who glare and shake your heads and mumble cruel things about other parents who deserve more care and kindness. You judge me when you judge those other parents who aren't performing to your standards. You judge me when you determine that you know better how to deal with a child that you don't even know. You judge me when you consider yourselves superior because your child never acts in such a manner, but if he did, you know just how you'd deal with it. You judge me. So, I sit here and virtually glare at you in return. I shake my head at your cruelty and thoughtlessness. I mumble about your lack of compassion and understanding. And I promise myself to be extra kind to the next parents I encounter whose heads are spinning and hands are full. Because I'd rather live in a world where we genuinely care about each other than one in which we hurt each other in order to feel better about ourselves.
Wow, somebody who has the same experience, nearly exactly. My second is "high needs" and intense by almost anybody's standards, and I get comments on it from proffessionals who work with special needs kids and laypeople alike, but she is EASY compared to my first.

I don't think people understand who have not been through the intensity of YEARS of severe sleep deprivation and having to somehow continue living.
post #137 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer Z View Post
Wow, somebody who has the same experience, nearly exactly. My second is "high needs" and intense by almost anybody's standards, and I get comments on it from proffessionals who work with special needs kids and laypeople alike, but she is EASY compared to my first.

I don't think people understand who have not been through the intensity of YEARS of severe sleep deprivation and having to somehow continue living.


I get it. sometimes I can't believe I'm still here, as in, in the world.
post #138 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by rainyday View Post
Frankly, who really cares what the child's history is or why he was screaming? There were TWO able-bodied parents there. There is absolutely no excuse for that kind of pure rudeness and lack of consideration for anyone (including the screaming child). Was the child special needs? Maybe. Who cares, though? I mean, really, TWO parents and one of them couldn't take him out of the store? Did they need something urgently? Maybe. Then grab a few things and get out of the store and stop making everyone, including your own child miserable. I really, highly doubt that one parent can't handle the child alone because I really, highly doubt that both parents are with that child all day long. In most families, someone has to um, go to the bathroom occasionally or go off to one of those pesky jobs that provide money for hour-long shopping expeditions. I have compassion in all sorts of situations but not in this one. It's rude. End of story.
You are making so many assumptions here. You are assuming the parents are able bodied. They might not be. Even if they look "normal", they might be recovering from surgery and not able to lift, have MS or Lupus or back problems. The second parent might be there to help insure the safety of the child, helping the parent shopping. Going outside might not be a safe option because the child can't be contained like they can in a shopping cart. They might not have a car to take them to, or the car might be a peice of junk that is not an appropriate temperature without the car running. Or, maybe this is the closest thing to "together" time the parents ever get.

And, you know what, there was a time when I couldn't go to the bathroom when I was the lone adult. I had to lock my ds in the bathroom with me because he could not be alone for a momment. I was nearly psychotic from sleep deprivation because he would never sleep more than 3-4 hours at a time, then he would be awake for anywhere from 4-48 hours and I never knew what it was going to be. SO, it is still unreasonably judgemental EVEN IN THIS SITUATION.
post #139 of 186
AverysMomma is my new MDC crush
post #140 of 186
You know, in a forum that typically has members who pride themselves on looking out for children's needs, I'm really surprised at how many people are willing to defend these parents who were leaving their child to scream for at least an hour while they shopped. Is this really the best situation for that child? Does anyone seriously think that child wouldn't have been happier if her parents would have just taken her home or to the park or somewhere other than where she was so clearly really, really, really unhappy and upset? This wasn't a short emergency shopping trip. This went on for more than an hour. And that child was left to scream miserably for more than an hour. And all our compassion is going to the parents? I'm really boggled by the reactions here.

If the OP had posted about her neighbor leaving a child to scream for that same amount of time at bedtime, all of the people above who are bending over backwards to excuse the parents would have been up in arms about what that poor child was experiencing. Yes, sometimes we have to get some shopping done in really crappy circumstances with a really unhappy child. Most of us have had to do that for one reason or another. But leaving that poor child to scream for at least an hour (and remember, we don't know how long they were really there - it may have been longer) really doesn't seem kind to anyone, most especially the child.
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