intolerance to kefir?

[aris99]

I started making coconut water kefir about a month ago. I thought it might help my son who has severe oral aversions but it seems to have done the opposite. Everyone else in my family is fine w/it but it has caused a strange kind of diarrhea in my son. I have a friend who has IBS and she gets the same kind of diarrhea...sorry if this is TMI but....my son ends up pooping clear liquid. When I stop the kefir he returns to "normal" by the next day or two...I gave him S. boulardii probiotics and it seems to help stop the diarrhea (or maybe it's just the cessation of the kefir that stops the diarrhea?). I restarted the kefir and he got the same symptoms again so I'm sure it's the kefir.

I googled kefir and diarrhea and have found nothing about kefir causing diarrhea just info about kefir stopping diarrhea. I understand that if the kefir is not fermented for long enough that it can cause "mild" diarrhea but this is not mild and I fermented the coconut water for >24hrs, plus no one else in my family has had a reaction to the kefir. One site I found mentioned something about a leaky gut connection in autistic children and certain autistic children being unable to tolerate kefir and/or probiotics. My son may be on the autistic spectrum...not sure...but he definitely has sensory issues.
Could someone tell me if what's happening to my son could be a "healing" thing where if I were to start w/a drop of kefir (as opposed to a tablespoon)I could slowly increase the amount w/out eliciting the symptoms again OR whether some people simply can't tolerate kefir and never will? Is there a difference between milk kefir and coconut water kefir? Should I try milk?

I'd appreciate any help!

[aris99]

ps If you don't have answers to my ?? but know where I might be able to find answers PLEASE let me know! I have googled to no avail

[aris99]

anyone here make kefir? anyone?

[WuWei]

How old is your son, how much kefir is he consuming? Did you start slowly? Have you tried coconut water separately? Coconut water/milk (itself) can give diarrhea to some folks. Too much kefir (water or milk) can give diarrhea to some folks.

The s. boulardii displaces and replaces candida albicans. Does ds have eczema, other yeast symptoms? Do you have a history of mercury (silver) fillings in your teeth? Any history of antibiotics before/during/after birth? Is he nursing? Any new detox/gut healing that you've added to your diet? It might help to have a whole picture of your gut healing journey.

Any other new 'foods' introduced alongside? What coconut water/milk are you using? Any additives in it? Have you tried fresh, raw coconut water or coconut milk? Are you adding sugar to the culture? How much? Coconut oil (in coconut milk) can cause die-off of candida also.

Are you using REAL kefir grains or a starter powder?

Pat

[aris99]

Originally Posted by WuWei

How old is your son, how much kefir is he consuming? Did you start slowly? Have you tried coconut water separately? Coconut water/milk (itself) can give diarrhea to some folks. Too much kefir (water or milk) can give diarrhea to some folks.

He's 5 yo. I started very slowly...actually following your advice...1 tablespoon a day.

He's been drinking coconut milk for a few yrs in his smoothie and NEVER had a reaction. He's never had coconut water.

The s. boulardii displaces and replaces candida albicans. Does ds have eczema, other yeast symptoms? Do you have a history of mercury (silver) fillings in your teeth? Any history of antibiotics before/during/after birth? Is he nursing? Any new detox/gut healing that you've added to your diet? It might help to have a whole picture of your gut healing journey.

He has eczema but I'm unsure of other yeast symptoms. I have a few fillings, I'm sure there's mercury but my son has no cavities. No, antibiotics recently...when he was very little he had a few skin infections from eczema and he was prescribed abx but he hasn't had any meds in at least 2 yrs. He was hospitalized w/nutritional deficiencies when he was 2 (he has severe oral aversions/sensory issues preventing him from eating well) but I believe these are being dealt w/adequately now. His diet is limited but he's of average height so his growth is good and apart from being very quirky (he goes through periods of anxiety/OCD type behavior) he's a generally happy, healthy kid.

He's not nursing. Nothing else was added w/the kefir and I've done a couple of trials w/the kefir. Stopping and starting. When I stop giving it to him the diarrhea is gone in 24hrs. If I start putting it back in his smoothie he's pooping clear liquid (sorry TMI) w/in a couple of hrs.


Any other new 'foods' introduced alongside? What coconut water/milk are you using? Any additives in it? Have you tried fresh, raw coconut water or coconut milk? Are you adding sugar to the culture? How much? Coconut oil (in coconut milk) can cause die-off of candida also.

No other new foods added. "One" brand coconut water. I don't have access to coconuts. I don't add sugar. I use only coconut water. I've been putting coconut oil in his smoothies for a long time w/no reaction but I don't add any to the kefir..

Are you using REAL kefir grains or a starter powder?

Yep, I followed one of the links you gave me and bought water grains from Cultures for Health.


Pat

Pat,

You suggested I take him off the kefir, which I did. When he was back to normal I tried putting a couple of teaspoons in his smoothie and w/in hrs the diarrhea was back. I have never seen this kind of diarrhea before. He's never shown a reaction to any coconut products I've used and he consumes quite a bit. I am puzzled. If it is a healing reaction I understand that things can get worse before they get better but I don't know if this is healing or intolerance where his body is better off w/out it. I just can't find any examples anywhere else of individuals being intolerant to kefir. If you can think of anything I'd really appreciate your input!

[WuWei]

I reread your old posts and remember our old discussions now. I'm concerned with the liquid, clear diarrhea. That seems unusual. Any other probiotics, magnesium, vit C changes? My best suggestion is to back off to 1/8 or 1/4 teaspoon and gradually increase by the same amount each week. It sounds like the kefir has a big impact on his gut. I'm surprised, considering he tolerates the coconut oil and coconut water itself.

Do you have any breastmilk, by chance? I'd be inclined to include that for gut healing benefits.

What do his stools look like "normally"? JaneS (and momofmine) is the poop police. But, I've gathered that they should be brown, soft, formed, not float, not break apart, long S-shaped, no mucus, not green, no undigested food bits. (daily)

What are the few foods that ds consumes? I've also heard of the mucus sloughing off when one has a history of wheat/gluten to clear from the villi along the walls of the colon. The mucus, clear or sludgy stool 'peels' away from the walls to leave a surface area free to absorb nutrients.

There are more probiotics in 1ml of kefir than in a probiotic capsule. So, very little is needed for huge benefits.

Any chance of adding some carrot juice, ACV, sauerkraut juice, dosed by teaspoon? These are very beneficial for stomach acid and thus nutrient absorption.

The other thing I'm wondering, is if there are parasites or other pathogenic bacteria being killed by the kefir, thus the die-off. Ecoli, listeria, and salmonella could not grow in kefir. http://tmc.dergisi.org/pdf/pdf_TMC_279.pdf

Same with kombucha (which has s. boulardii). The antimicrobial activity of Kombucha was investigated against a number of pathogenic microorganisms. Staphylococcus aureus, Shigella sonnei, Escherichia coli, Aeromonas hydrophila, Yersinia enterolitica, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Enterobacter cloacae, Staphylococcus epidermis, Campylobacter jejuni, Salmonella enteritidis, Salmonella typhimurium, Bacillus cereus, Helicobacterpylori, and Listeria monocytogenes were found to be sensitive to Kombucha.
http://www.organic-kombucha.com/komb...l_studies.html

Same with clostridium. http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0


So, I wonder what pathogenic microbials are being displaced by the kefir.


Pat

[aris99]

Originally Posted by WuWei

I reread your old posts and remember our old discussions now. I'm concerned with the liquid, clear diarrhea. That seems unusual. Any other probiotics, magnesium, vit C changes? My best suggestion is to back off to 1/8 or 1/4 teaspoon and gradually increase by the same amount each week. It sounds like the kefir has a big impact on his gut. I'm surprised, considering he tolerates the coconut oil and coconut water itself.

Nothing new was added w/the kefir except the s. boulardii when he started having the clear liquid poops. About a month ago I started giving him tiny amts of Brainchild mag and zinc and I swear these were helping him to be slightly less sensitive to the flavor of his smoothie but I ran out of these sample bottles before I started him on the kefir and he didn't seem to have a reaction to these. He routinely gets camu camu for vit c and a smidgeon of vitamineral green which has a mix of "soil" probiotics. He gets Freeda unflavoured children's chewables and a tiny bit of DHA but all these things are routine...not new. All these things go into his "smoothie".


Do you have any breastmilk, by chance? I'd be inclined to include that for gut healing benefits.

No breastmilk...my third and last child is 3.5.

What do his stools look like "normally"? JaneS (and momofmine) is the poop police. But, I've gathered that they should be brown, soft, formed, not float, not break apart, long S-shaped, no mucus, not green, no undigested food bits. (daily)

His stools are usually little clay-brown balls if he's had nothing but cheese or sometimes a bit softer, but rarely "runny"...I'd say he tends more towards hard stools but he is quite regular...goes at least once a day.

Right now, after the kefir, his bms have ranged from clear liquid sometimes w/stringy mucous other times no mucous which he can't control...he was wetting his pants every half hr and was understandably upset about this.....to a strange wet mushy form that has little blackish particles in it...I can't even think what the black particles are.

What are the few foods that ds consumes? I've also heard of the mucus sloughing off when one has a history of wheat/gluten to clear from the villi along the walls of the colon. The mucus, clear or sludgy stool 'peels' away from the walls to leave a surface area free to absorb nutrients.

His main solid food is cheese. He'll also eat fig newtons and buckwheat waffles and sometimes tofurkey slices, occasionally some almonds (must be smoked), very occasionally bread or toast. He also likes small quantities of gingerbread cookies (only my recipe) and kit kats. His main nutrition comes from his smoothie...he consumes roughly 24 oz of this a day and it contains about 2/3 fortified hemp milk, and 1/3 a mix of prune juice, carrot juice, goodbelly, coconut oil, coconut milk, a smidgeon of pumpkin seed butter, vitamineral green, hemp seed, hemp oil, banana, and a couple of leaves of kale, dandelion or spinach. I also add freeda chewable vitamins, dha, vitamin D, sometimes a few extra drops of vitamin B complex and mag or zinc if I have it. I am constrained by the fact that he will not drink it if the color or taste changes. He is so affected by smells that he cannot eat if he smells certain foods like peanut butter and lately even potato. I HATE mealtimes!

There are more probiotics in 1ml of kefir than in a probiotic capsule. So, very little is needed for huge benefits.

Any chance of adding some carrot juice, ACV, sauerkraut juice, dosed by teaspoon? These are very beneficial for stomach acid and thus nutrient absorption.

He does get a small amt of bottled carrot juice (lakewood...not from concentrate but not fresh either) but he certainly would pass out if I offered him ACV or sauerkraut...the smell would be too much.

The other thing I'm wondering, is if there are parasites or other pathogenic bacteria being killed by the kefir, thus the die-off. Ecoli, listeria, and salmonella could not grow in kefir. http://tmc.dergisi.org/pdf/pdf_TMC_279.pdf

I'm sorry I'm pretty ignorant about these things but if he had one of these wouldn't he have food poisoning?

Same with kombucha (which has s. boulardii). The antimicrobial activity of Kombucha was investigated against a number of pathogenic microorganisms. Staphylococcus aureus, Shigella sonnei, Escherichia coli, Aeromonas hydrophila, Yersinia enterolitica, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Enterobacter cloacae, Staphylococcus epidermis, Campylobacter jejuni, Salmonella enteritidis, Salmonella typhimurium, Bacillus cereus, Helicobacterpylori, and Listeria monocytogenes were found to be sensitive to Kombucha.
http://www.organic-kombucha.com/komb...l_studies.html

I could see maybe some of these things though not sure where they would come from....is it a case of overgrowth or the introduction of these organisms from an outside source? He doesn't go to school...I homeschool so I'm trying to figure out where these pathogens would have been picked up?

Same with clostridium. http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0


So, I wonder what pathogenic microbials are being displaced by the kefir.
Pat

I am a little worried as this latest bout of liquid poop is lasting longer than the last bout. He looked very pale today and his behavior has also been a bit "over the top" ...acting out, a little wilder than usual. Should I wait until his poop returns to normal and start w/1/8th of a spoon of kefir? Intuitively I feel that the kefir has the potential to help him BUT I am scared of the reaction he's having.

Thanks for your help Pat!

[WuWei]

I would stop the kefir and get back to baseline.

My sense about it is that the microbials in the gut are out of balance, thus the diarrhea. The goodbelly, soil probiotics, s. boulardii and kefir sound like they are all impacting the microbial balance. Generally, the dry probiotics are much less effective at actually surviving to the gut. The goodbelly have some of the same beneficial probiotics as kefir. Fewer, but significant amounts and are in an acid medium, basically.

Other pathogenic microbials are commonly present in our gut, but are kept in balance with the beneficial microbials. Die-off of 'bad' bacteria occurs when they are killed or displaced by 'good' bacteria. The discarded/dead bacteria is excreted in the stool. When a lot of bacteria die-off, one can get diarrhea.

That is my basic understanding. Having too much die-off can be unpleasant, certainly. So, I'd back off, return to baseline and slowly add the kefir in smaller increments. Kefir is powerfully concentrated with MANY strains of beneficial microbials. Some folks tolerate a hard cleanse. I'm more of an advocate of gentle healing.

The smoothie sounds magical and nutritious. Congratulations on such a complex food that he tolerates! I've similarly provided nutrition for ds in his smoothie. He has veto'd smoothies the past 6 months though. However, he has a much more varied diet and I "amend" and enrich much of it, each day.


Pat

[aris99]

Thanks so much for your input Pat. I shall drop the probiotics for a few days til the poop is back to normal and then start w/1/8th spoon of kefir. AND thank-you for the smoothie affirmation...it has evolved slowly and is ever evolving as I learn...the proof is in the pudding...my son is healthy (knock on wood), happy and growing As an aside my youngest, who was supposed to have had the greatest number of prob's....she was born at 26 weeks...eats like a horse and she has dropped down to about 6 oz of the smoothie as her solid diet choices have exploded in number so very much like your son...I wish my son would follow suit...maybe one day....

[mamafish9]

FWIW, I agree with Pat, that very small amounts of kefir are triggering a die-off reaction of some sort for your son (yeast or something like that). I think it may be a sign that the kefir is doing something very good for him, it's just doing it too fast.

And I wish my son would drink smoothies - sounds yummy and extremely nutritious!

[aris99]

Thanks for your input! Oddly enough after stopping the kefir and diarrhea my son has not had a bm of any kind in over 24 hrs! I know this is ok for some but my son is very regular under "normal" conditions...he has in the past had a least one bm a day. Is it normal for the pendulum to swing back in the opposite direction?

I think the most important thing as far as getting my son to drink his smoothie was to start w/a drink that he liked and trusted.... 99% of this and 1% of the "good stuff"...all the other stuff! We originally used rice milk...yes the one loaded w/arsenic!...then we slowly switched to the hemp then the other stuff a drop at a time.

[WuWei]

Maybe, try the small amount of kefir, every other, or every third day?


Pat

[WuWei]

Maybe, try the small amount of kefir, every other, or every third day?

Generally, we need solid food to have solid stools. Or at least enough fiber to form stools. Perhaps, he just got well cleaned out, and it'll take a few days to build back up?


Pat

[Lady Lilya]

Wow!

I've been consuming close to a pint of (dairy) kefir every day and haven't had the slightest change from it. I did not start slowly. Maybe only 8 ounces of kefir per day the first few days, then 16 ounces ever since.

I have a feeling, aris, that your DS really needed the kefir.

[aris99]

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

Wow!

I've been consuming close to a pint of (dairy) kefir every day and haven't had the slightest change from it. I did not start slowly. Maybe only 8 ounces of kefir per day the first few days, then 16 ounces ever since.

I have a feeling, aris, that your DS really needed the kefir.

I agree w/you but I'm wondering how long it takes to see a reduction in "symptoms"?! I followed Pat's advice (thanks Pat!!) and gave him an 1/8th of a teaspoon up until today. He seemed to be getting back to normal...well, today I jumped the gun and gave him 1/4 teaspoon and BANG! the water-like diarrhea came right back. Not as many episodes but he had to change his underwear 3 times in one hr! I guess I'll drop him back to 1/8th of a spoon. I think it's strange...I mean I wondered if it was something I was doing wrong w/the kefir since I'm a newbie but my parents, my elder dd and I, myself, have been drinking quantities w/no change in digestion. My youngest seemed to have more bms but they were well formed...no diarrhea.

I did read somewhere awhile ago that some autistic children do not tolerate probiotics well. Not saying my son is autistic but he does share some traits...maybe the children who don't tolerate it are the ones that REALLY need it?!

[mamafish9]

Originally Posted by aris99

I did read somewhere awhile ago that some autistic children do not tolerate probiotics well. Not saying my son is autistic but he does share some traits...maybe the children who don't tolerate it are the ones that REALLY need it?!

I think some autistic children respond very strongly to probiotics because they have really messed up guts, but I'm not sure that's the same as not tolerating? My son is autistic, and kefir has been great for him. However, I can totally believe it is not right for everyone.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by Lady Lilya

Wow!

I've been consuming close to a pint of (dairy) kefir every day and haven't had the slightest change from it. I did not start slowly. Maybe only 8 ounces of kefir per day the first few days, then 16 ounces ever since.

I have a feeling, aris, that your DS really needed the kefir.

I'm curious if this was kefir made with real kefir grains, or commercial kefir.

Thanks, Pat

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by aris99

He seemed to be getting back to normal...well, today I jumped the gun and gave him 1/4 teaspoon and BANG! the water-like diarrhea came right back.

Gosh, this sounds so frustrating and challenging. The kefir continues to 'get stronger' the longer it ferments in the refrigerator, over time. Not hugely. But, it sounds like your son is very sensitive.

Consider making fresh kefir for him daily, with just a smidgen of milk, for a short time in the cupboard, and your family drink the rest. Sounds like a lot of trouble. Another possibility is to just give it every few days and gradually work up to daily over months. Every little bit will help. With our son, occasionally, he'll try some kombucha, which will help to clear candida. The coconut oil (which I know you are including does this also). What about something more mild like homemade yogurt? There are fewer microbials, in variety and quantity, than in kefir.

I'm wondering if he is having gas pains? Another possibility is that the kefir is continuing its ferment IN the smoothie, over the course of the day, especially at room temperature. Maybe add the kefir *just* to the first morning smoothie, rather than to the whole smoothie?

Pat

[Lady Lilya]

Originally Posted by WuWei

I'm curious if this was kefir made with real kefir grains, or commercial kefir.

Thanks, Pat

Real homemade kefir.

[aris99]

Originally Posted by WuWei

Gosh, this sounds so frustrating and challenging. The kefir continues to 'get stronger' the longer it ferments in the refrigerator, over time. Not hugely. But, it sounds like your son is very sensitive.

Consider making fresh kefir for him daily, with just a smidgen of milk, for a short time in the cupboard, and your family drink the rest. Sounds like a lot of trouble. Another possibility is to just give it every few days and gradually work up to daily over months. Every little bit will help. With our son, occasionally, he'll try some kombucha, which will help to clear candida. The coconut oil (which I know you are including does this also). What about something more mild like homemade yogurt? There are fewer microbials, in variety and quantity, than in kefir.

I'm wondering if he is having gas pains? Another possibility is that the kefir is continuing its ferment IN the smoothie, over the course of the day, especially at room temperature. Maybe add the kefir *just* to the first morning smoothie, rather than to the whole smoothie?

Pat

Ok now I'm confused (please remember I'm a kefir newbie so I may be asking some silly ??) but I generally ferment the coconut water for 24 hrs and then put it in the fridge. Doesn't longer fermentation cause constipation and <24 hrs cause mild diarrhea? I guess I was thinking that if the kefir was then put in the fridge it was ok to use it for a couple of days because it might actually counteract the diarrhea? Or is it that someone as sensitive as my son is getting diarrhea for reasons other than fermentation times?

When you say a smidgen of milk...do I add this to the coconut water after it has become kefir? What if I were to make milk kefir w/milk grains? Are these easier on the digestion or the same? How easy is yogurt to make? If it's as easy as kefir I can def. try this.

I don't actually add the kefir to the large "mother jar" of smoothie that I blend every morning. I add it to a single serving so it really doesn't have time to continue fermenting other than sitting in the kefir jar in the fridge....not sure if this makes a difference.

If all else fails I'll try every other day.

AND yes, he is having A LOT of gas and some pain.

Thanks Pat!