Hiring Friends as Handyman

[velochic]

(Sorry - this turned out to be kind of long )

Our neighbors and very good friends are out of work right now. Well, the dh is out of work and the dw is a school bus driver. The dh was told 6 months ahead of time that they would be closing shop and TBH, I didn't see them change their habits *at all* prior and even during the start of the unemployment (however I didn't say anything, as it really isn't my business other than the fact that I worried about them more). He has applied in his field (he's a press operator) and even gotten a couple of nibbles and interviews, but nothing yet. He's a VERY handy guy - jack of all trades and master of some. He's quite proud of his craftsmanship, so he does a good job with all the handyman projects he completes at his house and what he also helps my own dh with at ours.

The eejits down the block (that we've had a lot of trouble with in the past) plowed through our fence in the middle of the night a couple of weeks ago and nearly hit our house. Long story, short, we are getting quotes for the insurance. The quotes are to restore the fence back to the way it was, but we are actually wanting to take the fence out and instead put some large landscaping boulders in front. We live on a curve and this is the 3rd time the fence has been plowed into. We want large rocks that are going to stop and damage the cars, not our property.

Our friend next door wants to do the work (fence removal, hauling and clean up). We were planning to get the money from insurance, but do a lot of the work ourselves in order to use the insurance money for the boulders. Our friend needs the money (not desperately, but every little bit would help). The insurance is paying us, so it's not just out of our pocket. The estimate is about $700 (this is what we think the insurance will give us). Would it be unethical to have the neighbor help dh and give him, say half of the insurance money (it will take them about 1 day to complete the fence removal) so we have some left over for the boulders? Or should we give the entire amount to the friend? Dh WILL be working on it, too.

I want to help the friends, but I don't feel responsible for their financial health. We help in other ways. We have them over for dinner every week or two, when I buy something in bulk, I'll split it and just tell them that we won't be able to finish it in time (not true, but I like to help), I'll help her put up her garden as it comes on, dh refurbished a free computer (and bought some parts for it) so they could have a new/used computer for free. So we do try to do some things for them, but I'm not sure how to deal with an actual "business deal" with them. I don't want there to be any hard feelings that effects our relationship.

What do you think?

[rainbowmoon]

I definitely think $350 for a day or two of work is very reasonable. More than enough! I would just tell him upfront how much you can pay him, what the job will entail and stick to it.

[4evermom]

If the $700 is meant to clean up and replace the fence then you wouldn't pay it all to one person for cleaning up when two people are working and no new fence is being put in. The money is for labor and materials. Subtract how much would have gone into materials for replacing that section of fence (and put that toward the boulders). Subtract any fees for disposal of the rubbish (dump fee or dumpster rental, if needed). The rest would be divided by the number of people working to pay for their labor. So half to your husband and half to your neighbor if he helps.

[Denvergirlie]

$350 to remove a fence?

I'll come and do it myself, that's like at least $17 an hour if you think it will take 2 people 40 hours in total to do it. That's way overpaid for simple manual labor.

I applaud you wanting to help them, but if he wasn't out of work would you still hire someone to do this, or would you do it yourselves?

[anywaybecause]

I agree -- $350 is a really large sum for ripping up a fence. We helped some friends of ours build one of those playsets for their kids. We worked all afternoon, and we did it for grilled chicken, chips, and soda. To be completely honest, it sounds like you're already doing an awful lot to help them out. I would keep the money & use it for the boulders, like you'd planned. Those boulders cost a LOT of money just to begin with, and are expensive to haul, as well. If the neighbor has asked for the job, I would just tell him that it's not in your budget to hire out the work, so DH is going to do it himself. Then if he wants to help out anyway, at least he knows up front that you won't pay him.

[Kyamo]

I would hire him to help, but I would not feel at all obligated to give him all or half of the insurance money. I'd agree on an hourly rate with him, and pay him based on how much work he puts in.

[velochic]

Thanks for the replies. I wanted to reiterate that these are not just neighbors... they are VERY good friends of ours. I am closer to the dw than I am to my own sisters.

I want to be fair, but also we don't want to be out any $$ from our own pockets for this just to pay them for work we would mostly do ourselves.

I think we'll go with half of whatever the insurance will give us. One estimate was $35/hr. of labor, so if it takes them one day (8 - 10 hours) or so, that would be a reasonable amount.

[raingyrl]

Originally Posted by velochic

I think we'll go with half of whatever the insurance will give us. One estimate was $35/hr. of labor, so if it takes them one day (8 - 10 hours) or so, that would be a reasonable amount.

I think this is a good idea. Agreeing upon the amount of pay before the job begins is always best with friends/family.

I'm on the other side of this. DH is a carpenter who does occasional jobs for friends and family, and we are often amazed at how little they want to pay him, or how the negotiated rate changes when it comes time to pay. Unfortunately, some things that look simple turn out to be quite complex when you "dig in". One fence tear down could be simple manual labor while another could be quite entailed, requiring machinery, etc.

Most carpenters are not trying to rip anyone off ---and actually take a loss on many jobs. Ok...off the soapbox.

[goldfishkate]

It sounds like you've found a good solution.

Another idea would be to just ask your neighbor what the job would be worth to him. If you haven't mentioned the dollar amount of the insurance pay out then it may be a lot less than what you think.

[AuntNi]

Originally Posted by 4evermom

The money is for labor and materials. Subtract how much would have gone into materials for replacing that section of fence (and put that toward the boulders). Subtract any fees for disposal of the rubbish (dump fee or dumpster rental, if needed). The rest would be divided by the number of people working to pay for their labor. So half to your husband and half to your neighbor if he helps.

Exactly. If you were replacing the fence with an exact replica, you'd have to pay for materials, too.

[velochic]

Update to what we did and a twist.

We got a couple of estimates and the insurance paid us. On one of the estimates, the guy was going to charge us $35/hr. for labor. Dh and the neighbor did the work and paid our neighbor the same amount. On the estimate, the guy said it would take 10 hours to do the job. Turned out that it took dh and neighbor 2.5 hours and then 30 minutes to take the debris to the dump. So, we gave our neighbor $150, including dump fee and he was VERY happy to get that (insisted it was too much). I think everyone was happy with the way it turned out. Except for the guy that we got one of the estimates from...

Here's the twist. (Not frugal, but interesting.)

I talked to the estimate guy and told him that the car owner's insurance would not pay out on his estimate because it was too high. He insisted that I told him he could have the job. I said, "No, I told you we needed to hear back from the insurance". At one point he had just shown up at our house to do the job without even calling and I said then, "I haven't heard from insurance. NO, I don't want you to do the job yet." It turned out that the next day Progressive (the driver's insurance) came to look and estimate the damage themselves. If I had let this pushy guy do the work they would have paid nothing (no obvious damage because it would have been repaired!!)

So he got really, really angry with me on the phone. Said he was out 4 hours of work and that he was going to sue me. I told him that all I asked for was a FREE estimate and that he did no work, but to give me a quote. I told him that I didn't sign a contract with him. He said that I verbally told him that he could have the job. I told that obviously I didn't because I had said that I needed to hear from insurance first. He says he's going to sue us now. I said, "Good luck... you don't have a signed contract and I never said I'd hire you because I was waiting on insurance." He kind of obliquely threatened me (and he's a really big guy). It scared me. Dh said to file a complaint with the police, but the police would do nothing and it would make the guy angrier. I'm not sure what to do. He didn't come right out and say he was going to wring my neck or anything... just things like "You're going to regret this."

When I got off the phone, I called ADT to have them give us an estimate for a house alarm.

[Yooper]

Yikes!

We too have had several run-ins with cars in the yard, property damaged, insurance companies, estimates, etc.... It bites because often the insurance companies demand more estimates than I personally would bother with. Do I really need 3 landscaping companies to come out to my house to quote a $300 grass-patching job? Especially since it is highly likely that I will just take the money and do the job myself (which never saves any money but does at least afford me the ability to choose when it is done). I feel bad that the contractors are having to do these "free estimates" when I know they will not get the job no matter what....all to make the insurance company's job easier. Not to mention my hassle of calling three companies, being here when they come for the estimate, and dealing with PO'ed contractors. I have no answers though Maybe I should consider some boulders too! One guy drove into our backyard (down a significant "cliff") while wasted in the middle of the night then RAN AWAY leaving his truck but taking his keys. Dh chased him down the road but he got away. What a pain! The accident ended up causing far more damage to literally "fish" the truck up the cliff with a tow truck rather than simply drive it away because we had the keys and the "drivable" path was not accessible to the tow truck

I also have a lot of experience with using friends as handy-people. We are currently having a fence replaced by a very good friend of ours. I am nervous about it because it is a big job and I do not want it to ruin our friendship. We had an agreement going into it that as soon as it becomes an issue for either of us, we would stop the work. We also negotiated the cost as a whole job rather than by the hour. Materials and disposal are 100% covered by me while the labor was a set fee. This was because our friend is not a licensed or terrible experienced contractor. Handy, yes. Knows everything? Not so much. So it might take him longer to do parts that he is not as experienced with and we thought a per-hour charge would put pressure on both sides. Us feeling cheated when he had to "learn" something new and him feeling like he had to do things quickly (and maybe not properly) to keep the cost reasonable. I also highly recommend having a set timetable agreed upon beforehand.

[jentilla]

I think in this economic climate we have to be very careful about asking for "FREE" estimates.I Now, I don't think you did anything wrong, but people are starting to get desperate for work, especially in areas that have been hard hit. Last year we replaced windows and contacted a well-known company to give an in-home estimate. The rep who came out was VERY edgy and even after we AGREED to buy he was insistent we order RIGHT THEN. We said we would have to schedule it for the time when we were getting a large sum of extra money, I think it was only a month away, and he flipped. He became really aggressive and insulting and said we were wasting his time. We were flabbergasted, asked him to leave promptly. I tried to call the company right away, but couldn't get anyone, and at the time I was pg so lots of others things came up. The guy lost the sale out of sheer desperation for it to happen immediately

[velochic]

I agree with you guys. However, charging 3 times what the job is really worth isn't going to get you the job, either. I had no clue what it would cost and just assumed his estimate was fair. When the driver's insurance asked for more estimates, imagine my surprise that he had GROSSLY overestimated, saying it would take 10 hours of labor, not 2 or 3. I think there is something to be said about being HONEST in business no matter how desperate you are. The fact that we had never said we wanted him to do the work and he just got pushy makes me uncomfortable. Don't advertise free estimates if you don't really want to give them. I have had one good experience with a contractor in the past 4 years of dealing with numerous people... the only good experience was with hard-working immigrants that had good work ethic and were fair. That's a whole other topic, though.

[raingyrl]

Wow!!! This is unbelievable behavior! I can't imagine how it would benefit anyone's business. All I can think is that they are stressed financially, and are further taxed by countless free estimates that do not lead to work. Still unbelievable.

Velochic, I'm not surprised to hear of your negative experiences, but I'm sad that this is becoming the norm. DH seems to have to work like crazy to prove himself trustworthy and qualified to each new customer. Everyone seems to think that he is going to rip them off any way he can. Meanwhile, he has the keys (and alarm codes) to the homes of several people on his keychain who trust him so completely that he can come and go whenever they need a job done - or stay the night when they are out of town.

Was the man who threatened you employed by a company? Before I met DH I had a plumber crawl through my window to finish some work...! I called the company, complained loudly, and he was fired.

Oh...another thing to ask a contractor when they are compiling an estimate is if the total charge will reflect the actual # of hours worked & true cost of labor. Material costs fluctuate greatly right now, depending on the jobs. DH always keeps customers updated daily so that they know what to expect, and charges less if the actual time spent on the job is less than the estimate.

[velochic]

Raingyrl - thanks for your suggestions. The fellow was independent. Originally, I called him to haul in our winter wood for the stove. He didn't stack the wood and when I stacked it, he shorted me on the wood. I called back and while it took him a little bit, he did come back and not only gave what he shorted, but added a bit more. I liked that integrity and when we found out he did other handyman work, kept his number. I don't know what happened.

I would love to have someone like your dh nearby- someone that is that trustworthy. He is worth gold these days as he is rare, unfortunately (at least by my experiences).

[milosmomma]

Wow, that's so unsettling!

When a woman drove through our yard and took out one of our trees, we had trouble finding ANYONE to do a free estimate. Most of the places we called wanted $50-$75 because, as one guy told DP, "You're obviously just going to take the money and do the work yourself". Well, yeah, we thought about it ...but in the end we ended up putting the money back into the local economy and hiring the landscaping company down the street (who DID give us a free estimate). We actually ended up giving them even more work because we decided to extend our "lawn improvement" project.

I understand that people are desperate, but when the economy is down and work is slow, particularly in the contracting/landscaping field, your reputation is EVERYTHING. I can't believe that this guy got so belligerent. Aside from everything else, he's GOT to know that this will hurt his reputation and future business!

[EdnaMarie]

did not read whole post or replies- my answer is, not unless you're prepared to lose their friendship or a lot of money w/ no hard feelings.