Withhold promised item as punishment?

[Anglyn]

This strikes me as wrong. I mean, do you use material items as rewards? Do you withhold them as punishment? I see them as very serpearte things. This is what got me thinking about it: my ten year old niece is spending the weekend with us. My six year old dd has a kid tough dvd player she got for her bday and the other day I brought home a pair of headphones for it. The headphones also fit the little tv in the playroom and the computer, opening up possibilities of multiple kids doing multiple things without the sound overwheliming each other. My four year old ds got very jealous and wanted them. So we have been sharing, alternaing using them etc, which is fine. But seeing how much he loves them, I said that next time I go to the store, I'll get him his own set. Fastforward to today, that same son is being a pesk, threatening to throw his yogurt on the other kids. Now, my method of dealing with this is, in my mind, making hte punishment fit the crime, since this is an inappropriate use of yogurt, he loses the yogurt. But as this is going on, my niece says to me, "Since he's acting like this, I dont think he deserves those headphones!" Which I understand is how things function at her home and most others that I know. But I dont think that me breaking a promise made two days ago is appropriate way to deal with his misbehavior at this moment. Had I made deal that was contingent on behavior, ok. But I simply promised it without strings. I started to be irritated at a ten year old telling me how to parent, but I realize shes trying to help and to most people this type of thing is common and reasonable, but I think it breaks your childs trust in you since I would be going back on my word to him.

What do you think?

[annethcz]

I don't know. In that situation, we'd probably leave the store and come back another time. True, the headphones and the yogurt are unrelated, but bad behavior usually results in us leaving the store. And if we have to leave before we've picked up the headphones due to unacceptable behavior, that's just the way it works.

In general, I don't like taking away material things due to undesirable behavior, but sometimes it's the only tool I have. When kids get to the age where you can't physically pick them up and prevent them from creating damage to something/someone else, and talking isn't enough to calm them down, taking away material items can be a powerful motivator.

[bezark]

I think you're right.
DS is still very young, so I haven't had the chance yet to put many of my theories to practice, but I grew up with everything I was given having strings attached.
My dad would buy me a "gift" (that I often had to work ridiculously hard for to begin with) and every time I did something he didn't like (a spoon came out of the dishwasher not-so-shiny, etc), the gift was taken away.
It didn't take long before I'd completely lost my faith in anything nice my father said or did.
I think it also caused a bit of a hoarding problem when I first moved out of my parents' house; I was so afraid of losing my things when I was young that I was afraid to get rid of anything for a few years.
Even as a kid, I thought the punishment should fit the crime. That foggy spoon should put me on dish duty for a week, breaking curfew should mean I couldn't go out/had to come home an hour early for X amount of time, etc.

[MeepyCat]

My inclination would be to handle the yogurt incident independently of anything else I have promised or planned to do. I think your way of dealing with it makes it a trivial incident at the breakfast table, and many of the alternatives make it a shadow over the whole day.

I would absolutely not take up your niece's suggestion. My experience is that power dynamics between kids get seriously unpleasant when kids can see that adults take one kid's "advice" about how the other kids should be treated. Consequently, my inclination is to shut that sort of thing down. "That's between me and your cousin, thanks," or "I don't need you to suggest punishments."

And also - this may sound awful and lazy, but it is an issue - you decided to get your son a set of his own headphones because a few dollars is a small price to pay for relative peace in your household. Not getting a second set of headphones increases *your* suffering. If you take your niece's suggestion, one incident of brattiness at breakfast translates into another two or three weeks of Mom-brokered headphone wars before you go out and buy that second set of headphones anyway.

[annethcz]

Wait- did the yogurt incident happen at the store or earlier in the day? If it was at breakfast I don't think it has much bearing on the rest of the day.

BTW, I totally agree with the PPer that other children should have no say in what happens to a child who is misbehaving. Mine usual lines are, "You take care of you, I'll take care of your brother" or "It's not your job to tell your sister what to do."

[ssh]

I agree with you. I don't use punishment as a form of discipline, but taking away the yogurt if you can't use it properly is more of a logical consequence. Another logical consequence would have been to say "you don't seem to be enjoying playing with the girls, lets go paint (or some other age appropriate interesting activity)". If the 3 children a 4 year old, 6 year old and 10 year old were the only ones playing together I can understand how the 4 could become frustrated and become annoyed at the older girls. Also normal 4 year old behavior is annoying to some 10 year olds. Often when there are 3 children one sometimes feels left out. Being a pest is also kind of normal 4 year old behavior.

I think the 10 year old was also being a normal 10 year old. I would have just said "we don't punish people in our family" and then maybe asked her if she had any ideas about something everyone could do that would be fun.

[Anglyn]

Sorry I was unclear as to when and where this happened! Headphones were promised two days ago on our next trip to the store, which hasnt happened yet! The yogurt throwing incident was at home! I will not make another trip to the store until tommorow or maybe even monday.

Of course I didnt/wouldnt take my nieces advice, I got annoyed with her but then reminded myself that most people see this as normal and reasonable, so I was just checking in on other opinions!! I told her something to the effect of, "one thing really has nothing to do with the other".

I didnt take the yogurt away so much as a punishment per se, but becuase throwing it really ISNT acceptable and I didnt want yogurt all over the place or all over the other children, so it had to go. And I told him exactly that, "Yogurt is for eating, not throwing, since you arent eating it, it has to go, but you'll have it again tommorow when you're hungry and want to eat some" or something like that.

At least she didnt say, like my other niece did one day, "Well, he's just spoiled and needs a spanking and my daddy would spank him!" which told me loads about what was being said by my bil when I wasnt around.

I have been "ordered" by many family memebers to spank my children. I think, 17 years in, they finally realize that just isnt going to h

[pauletoy]

If I promised headphones, DS would get headphones. I would deal with the behavior but in my mind one doesn't have anything to do with the other.

[Marsupialmom]

Your sister shouldn't say anything.

If you were in the store and he was misbehaving leaving without the head phones would have been reasonable -- Having to leave because poor behavior he misses out something he wants and has to wait longer. Treating not to buy something you promised to get good behavior is wrong unless it is to warn a child of something like "If you run away again we will have to leave. Then we won't have XYZ or ABC or even your promise gift."

There is times -- Like today in our house -- the with holding promised gift is reasonable. My HOH dd likes to listen to her MP3 player (loudly) and ignoring the phone, responciblities, and/or basic safety. Today she sent me a message to call her with multipile exclaimation points. There was a delay in getting the message because I was getting a new phone. When I called her she didn't answer her phone, my business phone, nor the landline. She didn't respond to text. My son didn't answer the phones either. Come to find out he was in the bath. The landline phone was left outside last night by her (rained on and ruined). Her cell phone wasn't were she could see it. Her attitude was really nasty when we started explaining why we freaked a little. She is young enough to not get certain e-mail/text etique. So yes, she has to wait to get some stuff that was bought for her. She also has to earn up for a new home phone. : We had promised these items. We bought them for her. DH told her once she gives us a "report" on e-mail/test etique she will get these things.

[Tigerchild]

I could see delaying a store trip if your child was demonstrating that they did not have self-control to the point that you really didn't want to take them to the store anymore.

I have had to delay shopping trips a few times because of my kids' behavior earlier in the day. If they've spent the entire morning picking at each other, screaming, or acting out towards me, then quite frankly at that point mama isn't going to be able to handle a shopping trip (which I dislike anyway) without tantruming herself.

Of course, my kids are older. If my 7 year old, for instance, threatened to do something like throw her yogurt on her brothers, no, we wouldn't be going shopping that day because that is way out of line and either she is overtired, something else is going on, ect, and I'm not going to compound it by mixing it up in a store environment if she's already on edge. It's a little different with a 4 year old.

Though me personally, I am a lot more strict about some things than probably your average MDC person. I probably would have cancelled the store trip if the threat was unprovoked, but not because someone "didn't deserve" their gift, but because they were demonstrating to me that today was not a good day for a high stimulus public outing. If they'd been goaded into it, or I didn't at all see what happened prior to the incident, then I would probably continue with the trip after talking things out a bit if needed, with the reminder that if misbehavior occured at the store we'd have to turn around and leave right away.

[MusicianDad]

A promise is a promise, unless you specifically said "you can have the headphones if you behave" then I don't think it's right to go back on the promise. Otherwise, not only is it an illogical consequence it just shows your son that you won't do what you said you would do.

Of course I would never say something like "you can have the headphones if you behave" because that doesn't make much sense either.

[flapjack]

A promise is a promise. However, if a big kid starts our day by throwing yoghurt on the floor then the rest of the day is likely to be low on the fun and exciting scale, because cranky mummies don't take people to fun places.

[rabbitmum]

Originally Posted by Anglyn

But I dont think that me breaking a promise made two days ago is appropriate way to deal with his misbehavior at this moment.

I completely agree.

[petey44]

My dd is only 9 months, so i don't have the parenting experience necessary to comment on this, but i have seen friends/relatives do it with their kids, and i see it daily (hourly!!) in my work as a teacher. imho, it's a bad idea to punish a kid for behavior x by taking away y. It makes no difference if y is a tangible or intangible, or if the kid already possesses y or not. when you punish in this way, the child does not have the chance to learn the reason why his or her behavior was wrong- they just focus on the fact that they can't have new headphones/go to recess/etc. i think misbehavior should have a consequence directly related to the behavior, and that is very different from a "punishment." you were right for taking away the yogurt. using that as a reason to not get him the headphones would not teach him that throwing yogurt is bad manners, it would just teach him that promises can be broken and that we operate on a rewards and punishment system.
as an aside- i hate when people (again, in my experience i'm commenting on teachers just as much as parents) threaten to withhold something as a punishment and don't follow through on it. that's really a confusing and horrible experience for a child!
oh, and sorry your niece is being raised like that.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by Anglyn

Of course I didnt/wouldnt take my nieces advice, I got annoyed with her but then reminded myself that most people see this as normal and reasonable, so I was just checking in on other opinions!!

I think you are over-thinking a 10 yo's opinion. I don't think most people would even think to refuse the headphones (out of the blue--hadn't even been promised that day) over the yogurt incident.

[elizawill]

Originally Posted by Anglyn

Fastforward to today, that same son is being a pesk, threatening to throw his yogurt on the other kids. Now, my method of dealing with this is, in my mind, making hte punishment fit the crime, since this is an inappropriate use of yogurt, he loses the yogurt. But as this is going on, my niece says to me, "Since he's acting like this, I dont think he deserves those headphones!"

i would definitely still purchase the headphones. i agree it's irrelevant to his current behavior. however, in addition to taking the yogurt away, i might just by-pass the store all-together & save that trip for another day. if that wasn't an option, i would have discussed his attitude and my expectations before entering the shopping center. hth.

[heartmama]

There have been a few occasions when ds, for whatever reason (usually over tiredness) became so difficult to deal with that we did not do what we planned that day. At that point I focused on my own needs ie. "I am no longer willing to go do xyz with you acting like this". If you are making people miserable fun things might not happen as much. That's a life lesson I don't mind ds learning. It really has not happened very often.

However, if he threw some yogurt on another child I don't see a connection. He needs to help clean up, and be helped to apologize and make amends with that child, and I would put away the yogurt. That would be my focus. Whether I bought headphones at the store that night wouldn't have crossed my mind.

[Ruthla]

A few thoughts:

Appropriate consequences for a 10yo and appropriate consequences for a 4yo aren't always the same thing. The older child, with a greater understanding of cause and effect, and a better understanding of appropriate behavior to begin with, could likely understand "less related consequences" without it seeming as random to her.

If a 10yo was threatening to pour yogurt on other children- something COMPLETELY unnacceptable "not age appropriate" for a 10yo, it just might be appropriate to take away a whole bunch of material items, in the sense of 'If you're going to act like a toddler, then I don't think you're ready for these preteen items."

But for a 4yo, misusing yogurt means he loses the yogurt. I wouldnt' "not buy the headphones" unless he was misusing the headphones themselves- as that would be a sign that he's too young to use them, so of course he can't have his own set!

However, I might delay the trip to the store if the kids were acting up, and I got the feeling that they wouldn't behave appropriately in the store, or if I had a headache from their earlier interactions and the trip to the store was too much for me, etc. But I'd still get the headphones at the next trip to the store, whenever that turned out to be.

I woudln't expect your 10yo neice to understand these distinctions- that an appropriate consequence for her might not be appropriate for her 4yo cousin.

[phathui5]

Headphones were promised two days ago on our next trip to the store, which hasnt happened yet! The yogurt throwing incident was at home!

It would have been illogical, even as a punishment, since the two are totally unrelated.

[One_Girl]

I wouldn't take the headphones away, but I would also not bring a child to the store who is already acting out in such a wildly inappropriate way unless we were truly down to nothing resembling dinner material in the house. I have no problem with postponing things because my dd isn't behaving well enough to be in public. Maybe this is something that does work for your niece though, I would suggest not starting any conversations that may turn into a family fight with children stuck in the middle.