Arm me ladies, I'm going into battle!

[OceansEve]

2month well baby check on wednesday. The ped has already given me fair warning of the battle to come, so I want to be prepared. It's been nearly three years since I looked at most of my vaccine info since we did find a novax friendly dr after DD1 was born, I haven't looked much since. But since he moved out of state and DD3 has an enlarged kidney I have no choice but to find a new dr for her sake. Which has landed me here - back at square one. I can hardly remember my arguements with our first ped, so help refresh my memory and arm me with any new info/studies over the last couple years.

I have a problem with the vaxes being brewed in monkey tissue and beef heart (tho I forget which two those are), I remember a harvard study saying aluminum adjuvant can be linked to gulf war syndrome (lost my link), I used to have a link that was honest about most likely outcomes of naturally catching those diseases that cause death by dehydration which is easily avoideable these days, If any of this rings a bell I'd appreciate some help. Can you also remind me which religions fall under the no vaxing, cause the forms I've seen when I was shopping for a ped want a religion (we are spiritual but not necesarily religious, good luck explaining that in the bible belt ). Also the ped we saw first told me there was no noteable difference in the number of autism cases in vaxed and nonvaxed children - is there really a study that backs this or was she just using excuses cause this is the ped that tried to tell me the VAERS website was not a reliable source and was full of lies :

Thanks!

This is also my sis's ped and my understanding is she expects reasons and if I don't provide them, I will be "fired". I REALLY don't want to go shopping for another ped. I'm tired of looking, I've been looking for two years but DD2 has to have one because of her kidney possibly causing problems. I do intend to begin the visit by saying "we are both here with our preconceptions and neither of us will change our opinions" This dr office has news articles that are VERY provax posted all over the place and I hate going there, but I seriously don't feel I have a choice, she is the best option I have here.

[craft_media_hero]

Ugh, I am so sorry. It's horrible that we feel like we have to justify our health choices to our health care providers....

I don't have links for arguing your doc onto your side, but what I've seen be most effective is when mommies just say "we're not vaccinating" or "no vaccinations", grit your teeth and leave it at that; don't even try getting into the verbal battle. If the doc keeps pushing, just keep repeating the same and they'll figure out pretty quick that you're not changing your mind.

It really doesn't matter what you say because they are set in their beliefs. Don't even bat an eyelash; it's your decision!

[OceansEve]

This is also my sis's ped and my understanding is she expects reasons and if I don't provide them, I will be "fired". I REALLY don't want to go shopping for another ped. I'm tired of looking and DD2 has to have one because of her kidney possibly causing problems. I do intend to begin the visit by saying "we are both here with our preconceptions and neither of us will change our opinions" This dr office has news articles that are VERY provax posted all over the place and I hate going there, but I seriously don't feel I have a choice, she is the best option I have here.

[kiara7]

Seriously, as tempting as it is to sit and argue with the ped, the best thing is to say "it is against our personal religious beliefs" and "I'm not comfortable discussing our religious beliefs with you."

[OceansEve]

I have to admit the mutual disgust for ped and nonvaxer used to bother me so I kept looking for a ped. At this point having a child that will likely need to see a dr regularly I am ready to settle for mutual disgust as long as its a GOOD ped. I have already exhausted most of the other names thrown at me from non and delayed vaxers in my area. I just want to appease her and move on, but as I said to appease her she wants someone that has researched and has valid reasons, not someone that is just scared by mass media. My fear is that by saying something vague she will tell me she doesn't want to see my daughter anymore and then I am at square one - again.

[xmasbaby7]

I am sorry of the stress this situation seems to bring on for you. I strongly suggest taking a step back and considering how futile it is to engage in a discussion with your ped about it. It is as foolish as two religious conservatives from different religions thinking they could convert one another in a conversation if just the right argument was thrown out.

This is a good analogy because, like it or not, this is about faith. Neither side has proven facts and both side just have best guesses because of the ridiculously flawed or absent research on vaccines.

If you were, hypothetically, a religious conservative, how would you propose winning favor from someone of a different faith in a conversation? You would respectfully disagree and focus on the area of commonalities.

If I were in your shoes, I would think of my best, calm, authoritative, and kind voice, "Let's not discuss vaccines, as it is a personal and religious choice for us, but I would really love to hear your thoughts on kidney vulnerabilities that could affect my daughter. What tests should we be prepared to do as she gets older?" Pretend you are Obi Wan using the old Jedi mind trick. Consult her opinion on other things to make her feel valued in every breathe you tell her to mind her own business on vaccines.

Wishing you luck!!

[grahamsmom98]

Well, first, I'd cancel the appointment. You already know you'll be getting an argument, so why are you going.

With a doctor that is so obviously pro-vax, it is an argument that you WILL lose. She already has her mind set on this subject. Face it, you will NOT win ANY discussions with her. NO research you offer will be accepted. You're fired already.

This isn't about what research or arguments you can offer to her. It is about defending your personal, parental CHOICE on what happens to YOUR child.

I just want to appease her and move on, but as I said to appease her she wants someone that has researched and has valid reasons, not someone that is just scared by mass media.

Your health care provider works FOR you (or, if you are lucky, WITH you!). You do not have to do what they tell you. You don't have to give her any reasons why you don't intend to vax.

Trust me, if you go to this appoinment, it sounds like you'll cave, just to make her happy. You'll be posting here, in tears, about how your little one just got one shot, just to appease the doctor, but you'll be stronger next time.

Do NOT go!!!

Second, I'd try to find a family practice physician or a naturopath. They tend to be more open on the subject of vaccination. Plus, you'll find a doctor for the whole family, not just for the child(ren).

You don't need a ped for your daughter's condition, you need a kidney specialist. If you have a family practice doctor or a naturopath that supports your choice, they will help you with any specialists you may need.

By the way, I wouldn't go with any religion trump card to any doctor. It can come back and hit you in the head if your child needs some other treatment (blood transfusion or some such thing) and you agree to that.

Religious exemptions are about school entry, not health care providers taking you on as a patient.

Your religion-faith-belief system is your own business. If it is on a new patient form, skip it. It's none of their affair.

Cancel the appointment with this ped and find that kidney specialist instead.

[Ophelia]

Also remember that YOU are hiring the doctor, not the other way around. If you hired someone in another field for anything else, would you put up with them knowing they were going to 'battle' you? Probably not! So why should a doc be any different?

As someone else said, simply say something like 'due to religious beliefs we will not be discussing vaccinations [today]' and leave it at that. If they try to argue with you, just say it over and over again like a broken record, or change the subject.

Good luck and be firm!

By the way, I wouldn't go with any religion trump card to any doctor. It can come back and hit you in the head if your child needs some other treatment (blood transfusion or some such thing) and you agree to that.

Hmmm, I hadn't thought about that before but I haven't heard of it being a problem either. You could look at it this way: vaccinations are supposedly a 'preventative' of something they MAY or MAY NOT get sick with, while if a child needs a blood transfusion or the like, that is for an acute need where the child is already sick. Not sure how that would play out though.

[OceansEve]

#1 This is my third child and all three are vaxfree and will be till the day I die or they are old enough to choose vaxing for themselves (though I hope I will have taught them well enough to question it). I'm not one of those to cave, one of the great aspects of my personality.

#2 you are assuming my belief system doesn't have a problem with transfusions - DD1 had one when she ws born and after the fact I found out she was really on the border of needing or not needing - it made me absolutely furious they did it just cause. I would consent in a dire situation, but if its not absolutely necesary I do have a problem with it.

#3 the closest thing to a naturopath here is a chiropractor. We had a FP, he moved and warned us no one else in this area is antivax and when I say this area I mean 50+ miles in any direction. We have polled people that delay and nonvax to get a handful of names, I've seen all but two of them at this point. At any rate they are all provax but tolerate people that don't. This ped in particular sees my sis's children, she is selective/delayed vax. As long as I can show her I've researched it and do not consent she should just label me idiot and move on. But If I just go in there and say no w/o explanation chances are she will fire me. I'm not suggesting its right but that is just the position we find ourselves in at this point.

#4 she has an appt with a specialist in August, but until then if she gets a UTI I need a dr to get her into if I cannot calm the infection myself. My number one concern right now is to ensure my child does not get kidney damage. So if this ped wants reasons for nonvax I need to provide them. For the next month I am not in a position to be drless.

[kiara7]

I guess you could ask her if vaccines were ever proven to be safe and effective in children with kidney or other health issues. As you know they are tested on healthy children only. And tell her that you are not comfortable giving them since no one knows what could happen to your dd.
Look around the archives for links and info on specific vaccines too.

[nwmamas]

It sounds like you believe the doc will "accept" you for a few months if you give her the reasons she deems acceptable. But you don't know what she deems acceptable. Other than your sister's still in the practice... I'd imitate her if you want to stay. It seems to have worked once. Maybe you can even take her? That's my best advice. It sounds like the doc distrusts parents (VAERS, not having "good enough" reasons for not vaccinating) so you start out the argument destined to be judged as a mere "parent." Sorry you can't travel or see a gp or another kind of doc right now. That stinks if you need to her to listen to you about DD's condition and need her to trust you. Blech for you and DD. You deserve better health care. Best of luck at the appt.

[EVC]

I would NOT try to argue. No matter what evidence you present, she will just dismiss it all. You will NEVER persuade her, so why bother?

I would just say, "Thank you for the information, we will take your opinion into consideration, but while we review the information, we will need some time to weigh all of the factors to come to the decision best for our family, so we're going to hold off on vax'es for now."

OR

"It is against our religious views to vaccinate. I prefer not to discuss this highly personal topic with you." Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Fyrestorm]

"If you can show me large scale studies done on children with myDD's exact kidnet issue. I would be happy to discuss them with you. Until I see all the long term safety studies done on X kidney issue and each of the vaccines you are suggesting, I'll hold off thankyouverymuch. My DD is not a guinea pig."

[chaoticzenmom]

http://drtenpenny.com/vrc.aspx

First, go to her site and explore. I know you don't need convincing, but it might help refresh your reasons.

I tell my dr that I have rampant autism in my family and I'm not comfortable with the risks. You might refresh yourself on the ingredients of the vaccines and how Serotype replacement happens.

Then, remind her that you've heard that she's the best dr. to see for kidneys and you'd really like to consider all of her recommendations, but you are absolutely not comfortable with vaccines, so you'd rather not spend too much time there and would rather talk about the kidney issue or any other issue. Just assure her that you are comfortable with your decision. Maybe even offer to sign the waiver just so you can move on from that part of the discussion.

The only reason that she would want reasons would be to see how vulnerable you are. You might even research if she gets Pay for performance money look up p4p before the visit. And maybe even ask if she gets p4p money. So, if she really messes with you, you can show her that you know that she might just be biased by money. "I appreciate you not being biased by the pay for performance incentive in this state."

If she seems to be stuck on vaccines and it not moving on, ask her directly if she's willing to see you without the vaccines. Then, you've got your answer and can go from there.

I agree with the other person that you might just stick with the kidney specialist. We see a cardiologist for my son's heart and a naturapath for other things. I have no problem putting in a call to the cardio for a visit or to ask a question. Once you find the right kidney dr. you can call anytime you need a test run or have a question.

Good luck. I recently had issues where I thought I had found the perfect pediatrician only to have her try to pressure me to vaccinate. I changeddr's after that first visit, but was really upset about the whole thing. I don't think I remembered half of what I should have said and mostly said "we've got a lot of autism in our family" and "I'll consider what you've said."

[vulturemom]

What worked for me is "I am still researching vaccines and their side effects and haven't decided yet" I wasn't until my Baby was about a year old that I finally said that I had decided to wait. That is the only explanation I gave. Honestly it is something that can be done latter at any time but, it can never be undone. You shouldn't be on a time crunch to choose now.

[AutumnAir]

I think the burden of proof is on her. "Please show me some large-scale, double-blind, peer-reviewed studies which satisfactorily demonstrate the safety of each vaccine against a control group of no vaccine." (To the best of my knowledge there are none so she should have a hard time coming up with those.)

I also like Fyrestorm's reply - similar but more specific to your particular situation and you can bet your @ss she won't have any studies of that kind to show you.

[zinemama]

Really, don't get into it with her. Tell her vaccines are against your religious beliefs. She is not allowed to get into it with you over that.

And I fail to see how vaccines being against your religious beliefs has any bearing at all on blood transfusions?! Totally different scenarios and procedures.

[OceansEve]

Originally Posted by nwmamas

It sounds like the doc distrusts parents (VAERS, not having "good enough" reasons for not vaccinating) so you start out the argument destined to be judged as a mere "parent." .

That was our very first ped w/ DD1. She was also the one that told me there was a study showing autism in vaxed and nonvaxed was equal - I've never been able to find such a study.

Originally Posted by Fyrestorm

"If you can show me large scale studies done on children with myDD's exact kidnet issue. I would be happy to discuss them with you. Until I see all the long term safety studies done on X kidney issue and each of the vaccines you are suggesting, I'll hold off thankyouverymuch. My DD is not a guinea pig."

Ahhh, I like this!

Originally Posted by chaoticzenmom

http://drtenpenny.com/vrc.aspx
The only reason that she would want reasons would be to see how vulnerable you are. You might even research if she gets Pay for performance money look up p4p before the visit. And maybe even ask if she gets p4p money. So, if she really messes with you, you can show her that you know that she might just be biased by money. "I appreciate you not being biased by the pay for performance incentive in this state."

Is there a site or would that be footwork? I would love to find that out.

Originally Posted by zinemama

And I fail to see how vaccines being against your religious beliefs has any bearing at all on blood transfusions?! Totally different scenarios and procedures.

Most religions that actually have a nonvax policy are that way because they do not believe in medical intervention or no blood stream intervention, something about keeping the blood pure and untainted if I remember right. I know its an up and coming thing for many christians to believe in nonvax because they believe in god's plan for their child (or something to that effect) but christianity as a whole doesn't have a policy of not vaxing - thats why technically even though we call it a religious belief it probably would be considered more a philisophical belief. That's why I was trying to remember which religions in particular have a nonvax policy.

[ammiga]

What if you take the issue away from debating vaccines? Rather than telling her all the problems you have with vaccines, make it about believing in the strength of the human body and immune system. Yes, you realize that a very small percentage of people suffer from the worst case scenario, but those cases are few and far between. You also know the proper way to deal with illness (not treating a fever, making sure oxygen gets to puncture wounds, etc.), dc was bf (if that's true), dc gets a healthy diet, and overall has a healthy immune system. You have no reason to doubt that your children will be one of the "standard" cases if they catch a VPD, and you feel well equipped to handle an illness because of the strength of their immune systems and your knowledge.

[chaoticzenmom]

google p4p, vaccines and your state. You should be able to find something.