Christians mamas - our kids unwelcome at Bible study?

[sbrinton]

I have a question for the Christian mamas out there. I'm open to input from moms of other faiths too.

We have three boys, ages 4 1/2, 2 1/2 and 8 months. For about 6 years we've been members of an evangelical church. We've been very involved and have served in several different leadership roles, such as hosting and leading Bible studies and helping with counseling.

I'm really struggling with our current community group bible study. Our kids are active little boys. Our oldest, especially, has had a few situations at community group where he has been rough or aggresive with younger children. The group was meeting in our home and at first it was very difficult for our boys to have 6-8 other young children in their playroom. I would expect some amount of rough play when you have half a dozen toddler and preschool age boys. From what I understood at the time, there were never any serious problems.

But about six weeks ago, after we brought up some issues we were dealing with at home with the boys, the leaders decided that our kids could no longer be a part of the group. They said it is because A, our oldest son, has become too aggresive. When I asked for specific examples, they brought up things that happened months ago. When those things happened, no one told us that there were "serious" issues with our kids. But now, apparently, these things are serious enough that our children cannot go to group.

This breaks my oldest son's heart. He is a Christian, loves Jesus and really loves being a part of community. He wants to pray and learn and grow in is faith. I feel like the leaders are expecting him to be perfect and to never struggle with other kids. He is the oldest, but he is just 4 - I feel like it is inappopriate to expect him to never sin and always be gentle with the littler children. We do want to correct his behavior if he hurts another kid, but I feel like it is completely unfair to kick him out of group based on things that happened months ago, that no one told us about at the time!

It feels like hypocrisy. Many of the families in our church give their toddler boys a small arsenal of play swords and guns. The men get together to watch ultimate fighting. How in the world do they think little boys who are surrounded by violence will not be violent? Our family is much more non violent. We don't have guns or swords and we would much rather watch cycling. But when our little boys fight or goof off, as little boys do, we are kicked out of fellowship? What in the world?

I am so upset that our generally kind, sensitive little boy is unwelcome at our community group. I am not sure what to do. Our son is not perfect, but neither is anyone else. We're all sinners in need of a savior. We all need grace, especially our children.

What would you do in this situation? I'm pretty angry, but I don't want to make rash, foolish decisions.

[DahliaRW]

I probably would look for another church. It's one thing if NO children are allowed to attend, it's another to exclude one child. IMO, kids (or at least boys) tend to go through an aggressive phase around age 4. I don't know why. But, not giving you an opportunity to work on it and rather just dictating he can't be there rubs me the wrong way.

[lilyka]

ok...well there are several ways you can approach this.

you could be mad and you would have every right. for heavens sakes he is four. where you go from there I don't know. Is this still at your home? Do they provide childcare? if not I would suggest this would probably go smoother for all the kids. if they do i would likely suggest more.

are there issues with your children being aggressive outside of this specific bible study group? perhaps a different group would be a better fit for your family?

How do you handle it when your son has been aggressive? is it possible they have a problem with your parenting and this is their way of sending you a message?

I don't really have any answers for you. this just seems like a really odd situation . . . .I have never heard of kids that young being asked not to come back.

[Whistler]

Ouch! IMHO that is inappropriate for the other parents to say.

Have you looked into other solutions? For instance, does your group have a babysitter? When we do Small Group (basically a bible study) at our house, the church pays two babysitters for 11-14 children. It helps a TON.

Does your 8yo have a playmate his age or is everyone younger? That makes a big difference. If he doesn't, would he be interested in sitting with the grownups? (You said he loves Jesus, maybe he'd like to study the Bible too?)

Like other PP's said I might look for a different group or a different church. Your children should not be treated that way. If your son was truly harmful to the group I am sure you would have pulled him out to sit with you or to read quietly in a different room, but I doubt that was even necessary. 8yo boys are just rambunctious. We have two in our group and they are high-energy. That's ok.

ETA: Oops, I just read again and saw that he is 4, not 8. Still, same comments apply.

[notjustmamie]

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This sounds like a really rough situation. I would find it very difficult to trust these folks again, even if you were able to work through this particular issue.

Is this an officially-sanction group of your church? Is there someone on staff or a volunteer who oversees the community groups? If so, it might be worthwhile talking to that person about the issue, possibly even setting up a group meeting to clear the air.

If that's an option, I'd probably try that first. Depending on how that went, I may or may not leave the group and/or the church.

Also, I'm a little confused, if this group meets at your house, how are you expected to keep your 4 yo away? Or are they suggesting that you can no longer host meetings?

Sorry you're having to deal with this.

[sbrinton]

Thank you for your thoughts so far. A few answers to your questions...

The group used to meet at our house. We began the summer meeting at the park and then in the last few weeks, the leaders have taken over hosting the group.

We do have babysitters at the group. For a while it was a young woman, now it is two (really great) teenage boys. There has not been any structure, however, so the kids have kind of run wild. I think this is one of the problems for our boys as they generally do really well with structure. They have never had issues at sunday school, preschool, sports or camp!

Our son wants to sit in at group, but the leaders view this as an interuption. He has questions, he wants to participate in discussion. I would like him to be able to join us (when the topic is appropriate), but it doesn't seem like the group is open to that.

We're going to meet with the leader tonight. I'm still trying to decide whether I am too angry to sit in on the conversation. I might go upstairs and fold laundry, if you kwim! My husband knows how I feel and is able to be calm even when he's upset much better than I am.

We'll probably also meet with one of the pastors soon. This is an official group of the church.

At the end of the day, it's just kind of disgusting legalism. Why in the world would you say to a child that they cannot come to church if they are struggling with sin? The church IS FOR SINNERS. Jesus died FOR SINNERS. Why would we hold a child to a different standard??

I guess if the leaders can see it from this perspective we might try to reconcile and continue with these friends. If not, I hope the pastor will see where we're coming from and take these folks out of leadership unless they change their view of children. And if that fails, leave the church?

[aprildawn]

Originally Posted by Whistler

Have you looked into other solutions? For instance, does your group have a babysitter? When we do Small Group (basically a bible study) at our house, the church pays two babysitters for 11-14 children. It helps a TON.

Yep. Get a sitter. Or the moms in the group can take turns supervising the kids.

We're in a house church with lots of children. Once, when we were hosting at my house, there were 17 kids upstairs ranging from 18 mos - 8 yrs. They tore my DDs closet door off the hinges. Literally. Gotta have some supervision when you have a lot of children.

[CrunchyChristianMama]

Originally Posted by sbrinton

At the end of the day, it's just kind of disgusting legalism. Why in the world would you say to a child that they cannot come to church if they are struggling with sin? The church IS FOR SINNERS. Jesus died FOR SINNERS. Why would we hold a child to a different standard??

Are they not willing to forgive him, or are they worried about the safety of their own children? I can see how if I saw a child as a danger to my daughter it would concern me to have him/her around.

Is the aggressive behavior something you're addressing with your son? I'm not trying to judge your parenting AT ALL, I'm just curious. Maybe when you talk to the leaders you can let them know what you're doing to work with your son on his behavior and that could alleviate some of their fears.

[sbrinton]

Yes, we have addressed the aggresive behaviors in our sons. We don't think it's "no big deal" or "boys will be boys" if our sons are aggresive toward one another. We typically address it by taking the boy out of the situation, talking through what happened, walking the kids through apologizing and asking for forgiveness, praying, doing something nice for the other child, coming up with a consequence - or some combination of these things depending on the circumstance. We do not take hurting other children lightly and really want our kids to be loving and kind toward others.

I honestly do not think the other parents need to be worried about their children's safety - as long as the babysitters are paying attention to make sure everyone is not too wild and setting appropriate limits.

One thing the parents are worried about was a time that our 2 year old sort of climbed on top of a baby in her carseat. But, in my opinion anyway, the parents left the carseat on the floor and what do you expect with a 2 year old? I don't think he was trying to hurt the baby, he just didn't know how much was too much.

The other example they told us about was our 4 year old pushing a child off a chair in the playroom. But the kids were wrestling on the chair, so again, what do you expect? I'm sure our son was being selfish, but like other people, this is an area of sin that he struggles with. Something we're working on.

In both of these situations, if the parents are paying attention rather than gabbing over coffee or if the babysitters are making sure the kids are not out of control (or getting parents if they are), safety would not be a concern.

[VisionaryMom]

It is possible the sitters aren't prepared to handle as many children as they have or your sons in particular. Our nanny, who's absolutely wonderful with our children, has some trouble in a group situation where she sits because one of the boys there is very aggressive. She's said that no matter how much she tries to focus on him, which of course means that she's *not* able to watch or do activities with the other kids, he manages to hit, push, or otherwise hurt another child every time.

So it really is possible that the sitters do not feel they can deal with your children. I do not think it's acceptable for a 2YO to climb on top of a baby, and I currently have a 2YO. She definitely knows not to climb on a baby, and we aren't around babies a ton. My DD was the baby getting climbed on once, and the offender's mom reacted as you are "well, she's a kid, what do you expect?" It infuriated me that while I dealt with something at DS's preschool, my DD, who was a crawling babe at the time, couldn't be safe on the floor for 2 minutes without another child stepping on her - on purpose. So I can understand how your son's behavior would upset the parents of the baby crawled on and that they left the baby in the carrier because the sitters could not watch all of the other children *and* a baby.

I grew up evangelical, and my experience is that our denomination at least was not child-friendly. The parents would not have been open to AP-like gentle discipline. They would view the behaviors you're describing - talking about a problem, walking around a bit, as lack of discipline, and what you're seeing may be a difference between how you're parenting and the dominant view of the congregation WRT childrearing.

I really don't buy the "sin" analogy. For starters, my view of religion has changed so much that the idea of a 4YO struggling with an area of sin is difficult for me. Beyond that, though, while the church is a place for sinners in that we're all sinners under the evangelical view, that doesn't mean that people should sin *in* church. What if someone came to church drunk? What if two teens were found having sex in the church? What is someone lied openly at church? While people within the church certainly are dealing with sins in their lives, it's not permissible for those people to act out the sins at church.

[Bluegoat]

Are the other kids much younger? It doesn't sound to me like your son's behavior is that unusual for their ages, but they clearly need supervision, which is what should happen with kids that age.

I wonder, if you have two sitters, if it might be better to split the kids into two groups, one for each sitter. Even though the ratio would be the same, it might actually be much less chaotic. Perhaps a group of younger kids and older kids? Or maybe your older son would like to have some responsibilities and be a "special helper" to one of the sitters. Or babies might stay with the moms.

I am not sure what the issue is with the people at the church group - it is a normal developmental process for kids to need help and practice to learn to play in groups like that, and your boys don't sound much different than the kids at the playgroup I go to. Perhaps the pastor will have more insight into the real issue.

You could get a sitter and leave your boys at home - if that's financially practical - it might be a temporary solution anyway.

[lilyka]

your sons behavior sounds age appropriate. it sounds like the sitters are not eqipped to handle so many kids. your boys are still BABIES. it sounds like quite a lot is being expected from them in general. I can see the issue here for everyone. i think they way they went about it stinks. if childcare needs to be handled differently then the group should have met to decide how child care was going to be handled for everyone.

is there a chance your church would be open to starting a family group? where kids and parents can learn together. it sounds like something your oldest might enjoy!

[lyno]

I'm so sorry! Is there anyone in the playroom supervising? If not, how can we expect them to be perfect litttle angels? The playroom supervisor should discipline as needed and if she or he can't handle it, maybe there should be a new supervisor?
Men in our church get together and watch ultimate fighting too. It makes me sick. I think it sets a very bad example to children to entertain ourselves with watching something so violent.

[MrsSurplus]

I'm so sorry, Mama.

I don't think it's useful to view this as a "we're all sinners, so we need to forgive and move on" - because safety is the issue - as is liability if the church is providing the sitters - not so much "sin." I agree with PPs who said that the sitters are likely not equipped to handle issues like this. Perhaps you could offer to bring your own sitter who will focus on your children - or for you to somehow take primary responsibility for your children's behavior while in the study. I have had two acquaintences at church who each had children who proved to be a...hazard...to other children. Their behavior was understandable (one due to homelife, the other due to Attachment Disorder), but I felt it was very irresponsible of those boys' parents to not provide extra diligence knowing that their children, for whatever reason, were struggling with aggression issues.

[Kidzaplenty]

I am sorry for what you are going through. It sounds to me like the group does not have adequate supervision for the little ones, and that is the main problem. When you get a bunch of little ones together with little to no supervision, they can become unrulely very quickly and things can escalate out of control.

Your son sounds very normal to me for his age, and I have had four there already.

Also, wondering about an update? How did your meeting go with the leadership? I hope you were able to work out something because I don't think it is right for them to kick you out.

[sbrinton]

So an update...

On Monday night we met with the leader of the group and his coach, the guy who is in charge of community groups in our region. Both men have been good friends of our family for a few years. At the meeting, the leaders expressed that they want to stay in community with us and they want to make this work. They apologized for not being on top of some of the issues in the past - for letting things go that should have been addressed.

They said we were welcome to go to group on Tuesday, so although it was hard, we went. Our four year old was really upset about going because he knew that the wife of the leader was the one who had said he couldn't come. Not being able to go to group the last month or so had brought him to tears over and over again. I did not really want to go and deal with other moms who clearly are viewing our parenting/discipline as inadequate, but I went too.

Unfortunately, the wife of the leader did not come to the group. Argh. I really wanted to face the situation. I had apologized for being angry by email and I hoped I would hear something back from her. I would really appreciate an apology too.

During group, and especially while the kids were upstairs, I felt like we were on pins and needles. We explained very clearly to the kids what was expected of them and I think they did the best they could. The women who were watching the kids reported back to us at the end of group and the followed up with a long email about every little thing Asher did wrong. The "big deal" situation they brought up was where our son was quietly journaling with his markers and crayons on his own. A young child came up behind him and Asher thought the boy was going to take his markers so he blocked the younger child's path with his elbow. This boys parents had explained that the kid liked to eat crayons, so at least according to our son he was blocking the boy from getting the crayons so he wouldn't eat them. Trying to help. They said this was aggressive and rude - but I just don't get it. Asher was trying to help. It would have been better for him to be a little gentler, but he was not trying to hurt the other child and the other kid was not seriously hurt, just frustrated that he couldn't get the markers.

That was sort of long. What it boils down to is that the leaders seems to have a very unrealistic expectation of what is normal, age appropriate behavior for a toddler or preschool age child. They want the kids to be polite, quiet, listen attentively, willingly do whatever the parents ask them to do with a cheerful heart always...great goals but not every little one can do that every time.

I'm at the point that I just don't want to be around other parents who spend all their time looking for every little thing that our kids do wrong. It feels like they are just trying to find everything that is wrong. I want to be in community with people who can agree that parenting is hard but that children are a blessing nonetheless - people who will encourage my husband and I to be good parents, not people who will endlessly criticize our kids and our parenting.

Argh. This is hard because this has been our church family and our best friends for years.

[lilyka]

are these people for real. your sone does one little thing (a little thing where no one got hurt and nothing really happened and was COMPLETELY age appropriate...for the love of pete! he is FOUR!! and that is the big thing at a list of little things, seriously, do these people have nothing else to do but sit around and judge preschoolers? do any of them have more than one child? is your 4 year old the oldest. these people just sound like they have no clue. none. honestly I would quit and find a more realistic group. these people sound just plain nuts. and have really high expectation of chilodren. i am all on board for kids who are polite, quiet, listen attentively, willingly do whatever the parents ask them to do with a cheerful heart always but I also live in reality....and realise this is something kids achieve eventually, not over night or while they are still babies.

[MrsSurplus]

That sounds like a good outcome - overall. I'm glad the leadership took some responsibility.

Also, are your kids the oldest? Are the other kids closer to your kids' ages perfectly behaved or do the parents not see their childishness?

I want to be in community with people who can agree that parenting is hard but that children are a blessing nonetheless - people who will encourage my husband and I to be good parents, not people who will endlessly criticize our kids and our parenting.

Can you say this to them - not the leadership, but the group?

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by sbrinton

I'm at the point that I just don't want to be around other parents who spend all their time looking for every little thing that our kids do wrong. It feels like they are just trying to find everything that is wrong. I want to be in community with people who can agree that parenting is hard but that children are a blessing nonetheless - people who will encourage my husband and I to be good parents, not people who will endlessly criticize our kids and our parenting.

Ultimately you may have to leave this church. I know I said this before, and I hate to sound repetitive, but many churches simply don't allow for AP-type parenting. I don't know what denomination you're in, but I grew up in a church that sounds very similar. The adults expected children to be perfect all the time - no room for error. A large number of children in that church were abused, and much of it was supported by religious teaching. It may be that your family doesn't mesh well with this church when it comes to parenting, and that will get harder as your children age.

[sbrinton]

We went away for the weekend. My husband and I spent maybe an hour of the drive there talking about it and then sort of tabled the discussion for the weekend. Nice break.

On the way home we had an email from the leader of the group that he and his wife want to meet with us. It sort of brought the whole situation back and I'm feeling pretty miserable about it.

I don't know what to do. I'm pretty frustrated with the leaders. And hurt.

I know the leader did grow up in a legalistic church where kids were expected to be seen and not heard. But our church as a whole is not like this. I think this leader is out of line and my husband and I are going to meet with one of the pastors to point out what is going on. Hopefully we will get a good response from the pastor. If not, I guess that is good information - and we'll find a different church.

It's just beyond frustrating to have the people who are in charge here have this impossible standard for children when they only have very little ones themselves. The leader has a 7 month old daughter and the coach has 2 kids under the age of 2.