Difference between Punishment and N/L consequences? - Page 2

[ThreeKidsinKy]

Originally Posted by ssh

That example is a punishment. ...
Punishment is "you did something I don't like, so I'm doing something to you that you don't like".

How is that a punishment, if a condition for going to the birthday party is having done their chores? If my child asks me if they can attend a party (or go to so-and-so's house, etc) and I say..."Yes, as long as you have your homework done and your agreed-upon Saturday chores finished"....it's a punishment if I don't let him go?

[ThreeKidsinKy]

Originally Posted by frontierpsych

And I'm pretty sure Kohn's solution in that situation would be to bring the jacket along, just in case.

Think of what you would do if it were your spouse in that situation (obviously there are times when there have to be differences between how you deal with kids and adults, but you get my drift). I try to think of the most caring solution instead of thinking "Oh well, you'll learn!"

Is that not disrespecting the child's decision that they don't want it? You know, my spouse would be pretty pissed off if he said he didn't want a jacket and I brought one along "just in case". I probably would be too.

[BellinghamCrunchie]

The confusion about punishment comes from two different definitions, the behavioral definition of punishment and the mainstream definition.

The behavioral definition is pretty clear. Punishment is a stimulus that occurs after a behavior that causes the behavior to be less likely to occur in the future. That's all. It doesn't say that the punishment has to be painful, or be administered with a certain intent or not, or even that its related to the behavior or not. The only thing that matters is that the stimulus occurs after and that the behavior is reduced.

The mainstream parenting definition is horribly unclear. Some say natural consequences aren't punishment, some say its not punishment if you didn't intend it to be, some say its not punishment if its not painful, some say logical consequences are punishing, some say not. Its a discussion that will no doubt go on forever.

Before you can have any kind of conversation about what particular stimulus is punishment, you have to find a definition that all can agree on. And there is no consistent mainstream definition, so either adopt the behavioral one, or resign yourself to years of on-going debate

In the four+ years I've been a part of these forums, we've had this conversation at least a hundred times.

[frontierpsych]

Originally Posted by ThreeKidsinKy

Is that not disrespecting the child's decision that they don't want it? You know, my spouse would be pretty pissed off if he said he didn't want a jacket and I brought one along "just in case". I probably would be too.

I don't know, I guess it depends on the individual. It wouldn't bother me. I have sensory issues and can be pretty stubborn, but may have a breakdown anyway if I decided I needed a jacket and didn't have one. It sounds like something my DH would do for me, I guess because he knows me that well. As with anything, you have to decide what would be the bigger issue for that individual child-- the disrespect of taking the jacket anyway, or the potential meltdown that would occur if they realized they needed it and didn't have it. What really matters in this situation is how the child perceives your actions-- diminutive or caring and helpful.