Vegetarian and LDS?? Or just LDS, advice please.

[fresh_veggie]

I joined the LDS church when I was 17. I'd been veggie for a while for ethical reasons primarily. I just can't understand how my church could advocate the killing of animals for "fun" and "sport". Not only advocate it - but call MISSIONARIES to tend to the preserves! The previous apostles, prophets, and leaders all were against hunting for sport, and woe unto those who sheddeth blood and hath not need and all that. Lorenzo Snow has some amazing quotes. What is this, "continued revelation"?! Just an excuse to mold with the times and change doctrine for member retention.

I just can't understand this. This could be it, this could be what drives me to leave.

Deseret News article from 2000

Not feeling too great about this right now, sorry if I seem emotional... I am.

[tappinerp]

I am sorry that you are having a hard time with this.

I tried to do a google search and pull up the name of that hunting area, but didn't have any luck. Are you sure it is still around?

Regardless, there is one thing that I have definitely learned in my spiritual journey. You HAVE to seperate the Corporate "church" from the Faith itself. It can be very, very hard to do. Our family runs a company that contracts extensively with the corporate church. The stories I could tell you are horrific. Seriously.

What it ended up coming down to was this...
I HAD to decide if I believed in the doctrine of the LDS church. Once I realized that I did have a deep conviction regarding the faith, the rest of it didn't really matter.

People are people, and they make mistakes. They interpret things to match their own agendas. The corporate church is a business. Period. I wish I could say that everyone who worked for the corporate church was honest and ethical but they aren't. Again, they are just people. And they make bad decisions.

I know LDS people who are vegetarians. The Word of Wisdom and as you stated several church leaders have spoken against excessive meat and uncruel treatment of animals. It is possible to be both a vegetarian and LDS

I do find it really odd that missionaries were called to care for the area though... but again, nothing really surprises me anymore...

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by tappinerp

Regardless, there is one thing that I have definitely learned in my spiritual journey. You HAVE to seperate the Corporate "church" from the Faith itself.
<snip>
What it ended up coming down to was this...
I HAD to decide if I believed in the doctrine of the LDS church. Once I realized that I did have a deep conviction regarding the faith, the rest of it didn't really matter.

People are people, and they make mistakes. They interpret things to match their own agendas. The corporate church is a business. Period. I wish I could say that everyone who worked for the corporate church was honest and ethical but they aren't. Again, they are just people. And they make bad decisions.

This is it right here. Amen! And I know there are plenty who disagree and challenge that because the idea of the church=gospel is so prevalent within the church (meaning even the church as a business) but it simply isn't true. Nor is it true that Mormon culture=the gospel.

You're right, OP, about what was said about hunting. You are also right that contradictions exist among the Prophets. People will come up with different reasons for this but mainly I think one has to remember that the Prophet and General Authorities are men of God not God Himself. They are subject to their own opinions and weaknesses. They can be wrong. Really, they can. And that's ok. We are all here to learn and grow and progress, are we not? Even GAs. Just focus on the gospel and what the spirit is leading you to do within the gospel. But also recognize this journey is going to be different for everyone. Though we have the fullness of the gospel it doesn't mean we as people are always going to be perfect and do the right thing, ykwim?


DH is a convert, I was somewhat raised in the church. FWIW, we were veg but aren't any longer though we don't eat much meat at all and will be easing into a more pescetarian (sp?) diet. I believe the WoW to be a lot more flexible then one might think. I don't think it says to be veg*n and I don't believe it says not to. Like most things it is personal and we will know what is right for us. Of course things must be done in the right spirit and that includes treatment of animals.

Some links...
The Word of Wisdom: the forgotten verses
Hugh Nibley on the Word of Wisdom
Latter-Day Vegetarian


I can totally understand your frustration with the church on the base of the contradictions of modern revelation and our actions, etc. Totally. Hang in there! If you'd like PM me.

[fresh_veggie]

I want to sincerely thank you both for your words of comfort. I have also tried to look up more on the hunting preserve, but I couldn't find anything.

Originally Posted by tappinerp

I do find it really odd that missionaries were called to care for the area though... but again, nothing really surprises me anymore...

This is what really bothers me out of the whole spiel. I can deal with the corporate church being unethical and what-not. To my understanding, missionaries are called by God. And that isn't the corporate church making decisions. They're saying that God approves of this and wills it, or else He wouldn't call missionaries there. This ties this issue completely alongside my belief in the doctrine, if that makes sense.

[ancoda]

I find that really odd too. I googled them and found this. It makes it sound a bit less evil, but not much.
eta: Just realized there were two of the reserves and the one I listed above is only mentioned in the article it was not the main one.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by fresh_veggie

I want to sincerely thank you both for your words of comfort. I have also tried to look up more on the hunting preserve, but I couldn't find anything.



This is what really bothers me out of the whole spiel. I can deal with the corporate church being unethical and what-not. To my understanding, missionaries are called by God. And that isn't the corporate church making decisions. They're saying that God approves of this and wills it, or else He wouldn't call missionaries there. This ties this issue completely alongside my belief in the doctrine, if that makes sense.

We're all called of God not just full time Missionaries. The Lord doesn't micromanage. Not every last place we go and not everything we do is going to be directly related to His calling necessarily. When I worked at Wal Mart I say Missionaries shopping there on their P day every week. That doesn't mean the Lord condones Wal Mart's treatment of their workers, ykwim?

[fresh_veggie]

Originally Posted by magstphil

We're all called of God not just full time Missionaries. The Lord doesn't micromanage. Not every last place we go and not everything we do is going to be directly related to His calling necessarily. When I worked at Wal Mart I say Missionaries shopping there on their P day every week. That doesn't mean the Lord condones Wal Mart's treatment of their workers, ykwim?

This is a huge hunting preserve that makes very little money for the amount of land it uses for the specific purpose of raising animals to be killed for fun. To me, it feels a bit different from missionaries shopping at wal-mart on p day. "His calling" is exactly what they're doing at the preserve, not what they're doing in their free time.

[A&A]

The Word of Wisdom says to eat meat sparingly, and only in times of famine. It is doctrine, and no prophet has come out with a revelation otherwise. Of course, the majority of LDS people eat meat more often than "sparingly."

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by fresh_veggie

This is a huge hunting preserve that makes very little money for the amount of land it uses for the specific purpose of raising animals to be killed for fun. To me, it feels a bit different from missionaries shopping at wal-mart on p day. "His calling" is exactly what they're doing at the preserve, not what they're doing in their free time.

Point taken but you have to take into account that Missionaries are subject to go where the church tells them. Called of God yes but that doesn't mean they are only going where He directly states- that was my point with the P Day thing. Like I said, the Lord doesn't micromanage.

I totally get your frustration. I don't understand why the church would be doing this besides to make/save money because the Missionaries wouldn't be paid for their services which just opens up a whole bit of irritation on my part to put it lightly.

[fresh_veggie]

They do eat meat way more often than sparing. And if you eat less than them or say you're veggie, they'll get defensive and think you're attacking them. I never got why they were so quick to shun anti-oxidant filled green tea, yet stuff themselves full of taco bell and mint brownies (chocolate has caffeine!). They only have non-caffeinated drinks available for purchase on campus, yet there are meats galore.

But it all goes back to the fact that those are they people of the church, not the church, which I'm fine with. The missionaries are, however, called by God.

[holyhelianthus]

Maybe I am just confused here though FV. I was thinking you were saying that because Missionaries are called of God that means what they are doing is of God or at least perceived and pushed that way. Is that what you are saying? Because I do see that in the church and I could see the church saying this is financially helping the church so it's fine. For that you have to look at church history too. Prophets have taken part in things against the WoW to make a profit before this. I think one just has to figure out how THEY feel about that for themselves but also to, like the PP said, not equate the gospel with how the church/members/Prophets/etc do business. I will be honest and say I do have issues with how the church runs things and does business in some areas but I really just have to separate the two, yk?

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by fresh_veggie

They do eat meat way more often than sparing. And if you eat less than them or say you're veggie, they'll get defensive and think you're attacking them. I never got why they were so quick to shun anti-oxidant filled green tea, yet stuff themselves full of taco bell and mint brownies (chocolate has caffeine!). They only have non-caffeinated drinks available for purchase on campus, yet there are meats galore.

But it all goes back to the fact that those are they people of the church, not the church, which I'm fine with. The missionaries are, however, called by God.

As I said before so are we. The Bishop, the clerk, the Young Women's secretary... we're all called of God and depending on who we are we all take part in things like this from time to time. I have known Bishops who hunt for sport. Being called of God doesn't mean one is perfect and it doesn't mean we aren't susceptible to do what the church asks us to do.

As for the rest of the post, yeah I hear ya! My favorite argument is that that comma isn't suppose to be there in the WoW so we are suppose to eat meat not sparingly or whatever.

ETA- I think this has to do with not looking at the spirit of the WoW too. It's there to keep our bodies (our temples) healthy but because it doesn't mention sprite or McDonalds by name we feel we can scarf it down. But is that really good for our bodies? Are we really honoring our temples that way?

[fresh_veggie]

Originally Posted by magstphil

I totally get your frustration. I don't understand why the church would be doing this besides to make/save money because the Missionaries wouldn't be paid for their services which just opens up a whole bit of irritation on my part to put it lightly.

This is exactly what my husband was saying . He's a business/econ guy - he said that they were called as missionaries basically to be free labor. But he also said that according to the figures, the church makes very little money off the of place anyway. 500k a year isn't much for that amount of land. Considering that the land (thousands of acres!!) could be used for farmland to generate more revenue and make more food for the needier (or even sold!!), why is it used the way that is is? Because there are people that are either lobbying, or a wealthy crowd that takes pleasure in killing who might take their valuable tithing elsewhere if we were to not condone this sort of behavior.

That's harsh, I'm sorry. But the websites and articles make the whole thing sound sick.

[fresh_veggie]

Originally Posted by magstphil

As I said before so are we. The Bishop, the clerk, the Young Women's secretary... we're all called of God and depending on who we are we all take part in things like this from time to time. I have known Bishops who hunt for sport. Being called of God doesn't mean one is perfect and it doesn't mean we aren't susceptible to do what the church asks us to do.

As for the rest of the post, yeah I hear ya! My favorite argument is that that comma isn't suppose to be there in the WoW so we are suppose to eat meat not sparingly or whatever.

But still - they are doing exactly what they're called to do. Bishops are called to be bishops, they might hunt. But these missionaries are called to do just what they're doing! It's not like they were called to be something else and just do this as a side gig, lol.

That comma thing also is annoying...I had a really great seminary teacher one year - he said that the comma used to not be there and was added/moved around/taken out (whichever I can't remember sorry!). It's kinda like, wait, what? What now?

I also love how people throw that Timothy scripture out - "Those who say to not eat meat are not called of God" or whatever. Hello, LOOK DOWN and the jst!!! "Meat" merely means "food"!!!! :

[holyhelianthus]

I hear your frustration loud and clear and I am right there with you on so many levels. Truth is though we will probably never have the answer and we may just have to resign ourselves to it being there just for fun or for profit (maybe they hope to build it up), etc. It's another one of those "it is what it is" things. Though of course a letter to the church may not be a bad idea either!

[fresh_veggie]

Originally Posted by magstphil

ETA- I think this has to do with not looking at the spirit of the WoW too. It's there to keep our bodies (our temples) healthy but because it doesn't mention sprite or McDonalds by name we feel we can scarf it down. But is that really good for our bodies? Are we really honoring our temples that way?

Of course you aren't honoring your temple that way. There are so many obese (very unhealthy) people in the church - I'm on the path to become a dietitian and I watch my peers go to the nutrition club's pie and pizza parties weekly. Everything in moderation, but I think people have lost the definition of moderation and justify themselves by feeling proud that tea has never passed their lips. I used to have a roommate that was proud of herself for not having had a donut in 5 years - yet she would make herself a cake almost weekly.

[fresh_veggie]

Originally Posted by magstphil

I hear your frustration loud and clear and I am right there with you on so many levels. Truth is though we will probably never have the answer and we may just have to resign ourselves to it being there just for fun or for profit (maybe they hope to build it up), etc. It's another one of those "it is what it is" things. Though of course a letter to the church may not be a bad idea either!

Thank you so much for all your kindness, by the way. There are so many people who would just say, "Ok, then leave the church because of it." I'm planning a letter to President Monson...but I'm very very nervous as you might can imagine. I'm also stubborn

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by fresh_veggie

But still - they are doing exactly what they're called to do. Bishops are called to be bishops, they might hunt. But these missionaries are called to do just what they're doing! It's not like they were called to be something else and just do this as a side gig, lol.

That comma thing also is annoying...I had a really great seminary teacher one year - he said that the comma used to not be there and was added/moved around/taken out (whichever I can't remember sorry!). It's kinda like, wait, what? What now?

I also love how people throw that Timothy scripture out - "Those who say to not eat meat are not called of God" or whatever. Hello, LOOK DOWN and the jst!!! "Meat" merely means "food"!!!! :

A church calling can often be just that- a church calling. :

That scripture in Timothy and also the one in D&C (49 I want to say ????) could also simply mean that someone who tells you to not ever eat meat is also wrong. We are told in the WoW that meat is for use in times of famine. There are those who preach we are to NEVER eat meat even if we are dieing and that is a falsehood.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by fresh_veggie

Of course you aren't honoring your temple that way. There are so many obese (very unhealthy) people in the church - I'm on the path to become a dietitian and I watch my peers go to the nutrition club's pie and pizza parties weekly. Everything in moderation, but I think people have lost the definition of moderation and justify themselves by feeling proud that tea has never passed their lips. I used to have a roommate that was proud of herself for not having had a donut in 5 years - yet she would make herself a cake almost weekly.

Oh me. Well every little bit helps I guess.

Now I am no saint when it comes to nutrition by far! And I don't think eating crap makes one a bad person or doomed to hell but yeah it is really frustrating. I wish we focused more on the DO's of the WoW than the don'ts because it seriously is such a faboulous code of health when everything is taken into account not just tea, coffee, alcohol, and smoking.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by fresh_veggie

Thank you so much for all your kindness, by the way. There are so many people who would just say, "Ok, then leave the church because of it." I'm planning a letter to President Monson...but I'm very very nervous as you might can imagine. I'm also stubborn

Yeah don't worry I have gotten that a lot (the "just leave"). I'm sure there are those who think I am an apostate or close to it. But if it has taught me anything it is to be a lot kinder to those of us who do struggle in and more importantly with the church.