REALLY need some advice here (long)

[babydanielsmom]

I'm sitting here just crying as I post this....I jsut don't know what to say. This is about my SIL and my nephew (I'll call Z). Now let me start this by saying that he has never been an easy kid to deal with but something HAS to change. WE (me DS, Sil and Z) spent the afternoon together b/c Ds and Z had not seen each other in awhile and it was just terrible. Sil and Z had been arguing/ yelling at each other the whole way to this store we were going to today. This continued while I was getting Ds in his stoller and all of a sudden I heard a loud SMACK when I turned back around I saw Z holding his face and I freaked out asking Sil what happened... well she ignored me and got right in Z's face and was yelling at him to shut his smart a** mouth or she would smack him again!!!! Things just continued to get worse the rest of the day he was in time out about 6 times and at the end of the day she ended up swatting him on the leg with a switch b/c he made a mess !!! It felt like all she did all day long was scream at him / call him names ect. I'm not saying all of this just to vent (cause I need to) but to ask you mommas for some help. I had no idea that this was how he was being treated. I do know that Z is the most angry/ defiant/ hard to deal with kid I've ever met. My Sil hasn't always been this way to him (even though they've never had what I would call a close bond). When I tried to talk to her about what was going on she just said that she was at the end of her rope with him and she couldn't deal with it anymore and "whippin" his a*S with her hand/belt whatever was the only thing that worked. Then said something nasty about how we don't spank Ds ( he 22 moths)

Z is ONLY 4 1/2 yo !! He was FF, Sil practiced CIO, and his diet is AWFUL ( I don't even Know if any of that is conected)There has to be a way to get through to her so that she will stop this. Should I talk to her about parenting books? Is it even my "place" to say something? I don't see her very often so should I try to set up some sort of meeting with her?

I know that this post is rambling cause I'm upset ...I'd appreicate any advice on how to get through to her/or help with Z's behavior problems if I could thanks

[ssh]

I think slapping a kid in the face is classified as child abuse in most states.You could share that information with her, suggest if she doesn't want to get in trouble she should try a parenting class and some family counseling.

[newmum35]

No wonder he is so angry / defiant / hard to deal with !! Treat someone like that and what does she expect? I think this is only going to escalate, and someday, that kid is going to mistreat others the way he has been mistreated. He's going to abuse his girlfriend, his wife, or his kids, because he has been taught that this is what family does in the name of love.

Can you offer to watch him for a day so she can take a day off, that she needs a break. See how he is for you, when he is in a different situation and different environment. Maybe he will be better behaved for you, or at the very least learn to trust that not all people who love him will treat him badly. I'd try to see if I could watch him once in a while, both to give your SIL a break, to give the KID a break from HER (this would mean the world to a child who really IS being abused!) and maybe give you a chance to learn more about what is going on (if you saw this already, I worry there could be even more bad things going on) and what to do about it.

[elisent]

I'm sorry! I had to stop being friends with someone because she proudly told me she smacks her 5yo in the mouth as punishment. I just don't see how someone could think that is okay.

[babydanielsmom]

Thanks for the replies. It's not so much that I'm friends with her but family , kwim. Thankfully Z is in daycare 3 days a week and Sil works full time so they aren't together all the time She has been off this week from work so they have spent the week together. I'm it hasn't been easy for Z. I will try to let him spend more time with us ....it's been so hectic here lately. I lost the baby that I was carrying at 19 weeks and we have recently moved.... I guess I feel that things are just now settling down for us. I feel bad that I haven't been able to be there for him more, but with the loss and the grief that went with it ...well it's not been easy around here, kwim. Again , thanks for replying

[skueppers]

If it were me, I would try to put myself in her shoes and be gentle with her.

I've been there with my kids. That place where you just want to smack them because you cannot think of anything else you could do to get them to stop pulling your hair, biting you, scratching you, kicking you, whatever. My 4 1/2 year old just scratched me yesterday because she was angry. My 2-year-old bites his sister because it's fun. He went through a period that literally lasted a year when he would pull family members' hair (HARD!) several times a day.

No, I don't hit my kids. I never have. Aside from philosophical objections to hitting kids in general, I don't think it would do anything to change the behavior unless I hit them so hard it traumatized them, and that's obviously not going to lead to a positive outcome.

But I can see where she's coming from. When the behavior of your children is totally unacceptable, it's tempting to think that if you only found the right discipline technique, the behavior would change. That's what leads people like your SIL to hit their kids, yell at them all the time, and put them in constant time-outs -- they figure that whatever they were already doing wasn't working, since the kid's behavior was still a problem, so they need to escalate to a more extreme technique in the hope that this will work.

I would empathize with her and work on trying to get her to see that what she's doing now ISN'T working -- the child has never been an easy child and still isn't. There is no short-term solution that will make him a joy to live with. But the discipline techniques used today will make a difference a few years down the road.

[_betsy_]

Maybe find a study about allergies/sensitivities to food coloring (That one shocked me! I had no idea!) and say something like "I know you've been having a hard time with Z lately, have you ever wondered if it's caused by a food sensitivity? Look at this study I read about online." or whatever.

It might make her think twice about beating a small child iof he's reacting to the foods SHE's offering.

[holothuroidea]

"Be the change you want to see in the world."

Set a good example. It's really all you can do.

I agree with seeing if you can watch him for a day or two to give her a break, she sounds burnt out.

[jeliphish]

It does qualify as child abuse and at my agency there would be at least a CPS prevention worker assigned to the case to AT LEAST give mom an outlet. Sounds like they need some support immediately or she's going to continue to create a very angry little boy. This problem is cyclical and if something doesn't change there is going to be bad consequences.

[Ruthla]

I'd consider calling CPS in this case- but give it lots and lots of thought first. Maybe call up CPS first, anonymously, without giving your SIL's name, and find out if what she did would be considered abuse by them (as this definition can vary from state to state) and also find out what they'd be likely to do about it. Ideally, they'd offer her services that will help her be a better parent. At worst, CPS could pull him out of his home and put him in a foster home that's even worse, plus traumatizing him in the process. In either case, your relationship with SIL, Z, and your brother could be destroyed in they think you "ratted them out"- leaving you in a position where you can't help Z at all. Please tread carefully with CPS calls.

If you don't want to involve CPS, I'd try to get her some information specific to parenting a child with Z's issues. A generic book on GD will be useless to her. She already "knows" it won't work with him. But a book about defiant/explosive kids might get through to her.

Be gentle with SIL. Don't think of her as "an abuser" but rather a "victim of the circumstances." She's in over her head with a very challenging child, and lacks the resources to cope with him effectively. If you can watch Z for a few hours, while she recharges herself, you'll be doing them both a whole lot of good.

[RiverTam]

The kid is out of control, angry and defiant because his mother is out of control, angry and abusive.

The fact that she is hitting him with a stick is enough reason to make a CPS call. Please do so. This family needs help.

[webjefita]

She doesn't need a discipline technique. She needs to repair the relationship. The child sounds like he's acting out because he's insecure in his attachment to her, and not receiving unconditional love (from his perspective.) I'm sorry, this is very sad. But it can totally turn around if she can find ways to just enjoy him, delight in him, and love him unconditionally. If the child is very attached, he wants to "be good"/do good for his caregiver. i've BTDT.

[momma_unlimited]

The fact that she is hitting him with a stick is enough reason to make a CPS call.

At least in my state, this is not child abuse (using a spanking implement)unless it leaves a mark....

although not sure about hitting in the face?

My own reaction would be to hang out with them MORE, to be an example and be involved in this kid's life... I think it was anti-spanking queen Alice Miller who talked about the kids who rise above abusive discipline (esp spanking, shaming) having had an "enlightened witness" in their life who let them know in some way they were not deserving of such treatment...

with the stipulation that hitting/spanking is not acceptable in my house...

[skueppers]

Originally Posted by RiverTam

The kid is out of control, angry and defiant because his mother is out of control, angry and abusive.

This is an assumption I see frequently, and really, I don't think it's fair. There are kids who have serious behavior problems despite having parents who have done everything possible to treat the child with love and respect. When we assume that everything that's going on with a kid results from the parents' behavior, that puts a heavy load on the parents, and I would argue that it isn't really particularly respectful of children's individuality, either. If my kid is a great artist, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with my parenting. If my kid has temper tantrums at the drop of a hat, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with my parenting, either.

This mother said she was at the end of her rope. The OP said she hadn't always treated the child this way, and that he's always been a handful -- even before she started doing this kind of thing.

Of course I think what she's doing isn't going to help, and that they'd both be better off if she did something else. But blaming her for her child's behavior isn't going to solve anything.

[Magella]

Originally Posted by webjefita

She doesn't need a discipline technique. She needs to repair the relationship. The child sounds like he's acting out because he's insecure in his attachment to her, and not receiving unconditional love (from his perspective.) I'm sorry, this is very sad. But it can totally turn around if she can find ways to just enjoy him, delight in him, and love him unconditionally. If the child is very attached, he wants to "be good"/do good for his caregiver. i've BTDT.

Not necessarily.

Originally Posted by skueppers

This is an assumption I see frequently, and really, I don't think it's fair. There are kids who have serious behavior problems despite having parents who have done everything possible to treat the child with love and respect. When we assume that everything that's going on with a kid results from the parents' behavior, that puts a heavy load on the parents, and I would argue that it isn't really particularly respectful of children's individuality, either. If my kid is a great artist, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with my parenting. If my kid has temper tantrums at the drop of a hat, that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with my parenting, either.

This mother said she was at the end of her rope. The OP said she hadn't always treated the child this way, and that he's always been a handful -- even before she started doing this kind of thing.

Of course I think what she's doing isn't going to help, and that they'd both be better off if she did something else. But blaming her for her child's behavior isn't going to solve anything.

:

[milkybean]

His diet is awful? I bet you if she changed it, he would change.

DS was 3.5 when we realized, slowly, that DS absolutely cannot have corn syrup, corn syrup solids, or high fructose corn syrup. The cause him to be a horrible person. If a diagnosing type of person had seen him while "on" any of those things, he'd be on, at least, ritalin (if I allowed it, which I wouldn't, but still), if not other things. He becomes nearly deaf and blind, he runs in circles, waggles his head strangely, and the worst, he becomes VIOLENT.

It's possible/probable that food dyes cause it too, but since the foods that don't have the above 3 things in it, don't tend to have food dyes in it, I'm not sure. And no one's willing to do a test on him, least of all him.

Even vanilla can have corn syrup and even HFCS in it. Smuckers Uncrustable sandwiches (go-to "easy" pb&j) have both. Most candies (especially the shiny ones, as DS noticed), most snack products. Cheaper/non organic jams and jellies. Processed foods like mac/cheese etc. Basically...all "kid foods".

Change his diet, his behaviour will likely change. It's the quickest way to get a change, as long as they are willing to read EVERYTHING they are thinking about putting into his mouth.

My son is a wonderful, lovely, sweet, caring person, unless we mess up with his diet.

[Deer Hunter]

I definitely agree with offering to help as much as possible. This way, you coudl win her trust, and it will open the door to other things, such as discussions and the like. Perhaps, you could offer Parenting the Spirited Child. Or it might be called Parenting the Explosive Child. i'm not sure if it is the right title, but someone else here might correct me. Tell her that the book is for very hard to deal with children, and that it will help her. Be sure to let her know that you were thinking about her situation, and because you wanted to really help her, you did some research.

A lot of times, people do things because it is the only way they know how. They know no better way. It was probably done to them, and it was probably done to the generation before them. I hate anyone who abuses children, but she does not sound like one of those at all.She really sounds like someone who needs help and needs to know that there is a better way. HTH

[LynnS6]

How about offering to take Z for an afternoon so his mom can get a break? Given the fact that Z is a handful, you'll need both parents at home -- one for Z and one for your little one.

The family needs help, and if you can provide it, that would be great. If you build more of a relationship with Z, you can see what works with him and what doesn't. You can offer a calm, loving model of parenting. If you build more of a relationship with SIL, she'll be more receptive to suggestions about parenting. "Gee, I noticed that when I fed Z a red popsicle, his behavior spiraled out of control. A lot of kids are sensitive to red dyes. I wonder if eliminating red dyes would help?" You could also then share what you're reading "I read this great book called "The Challenging Child." It's got some great ideas for D, and I think some of the chapters might apply to Z. Would you like to borrow it?"

At the same time, you can and should not allow her to hit him in your house. "I know you're at the end of your rope. We do not allow hitting in our house. If you need a break, take a walk around the block and I'll deal with Z until you get back."

Would she be open to taking a parenting class with you? Could you find a gentle discipline class? Heck, even a Love and Logic class would be better than what she's doing.