or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Any Jewish Mamas? - Page 2

post #21 of 46
Crashing from March because (1) I'm due early March so could well go in February, and (2) why not?

Zevy, I'm confused about where you got the information about mourning from, because my understanding is that there is no traditional mourning in Jewish law for an infant who dies even up to 30 days after birth. (Status of "nefel" -- considered never to have been a viable person -- even if s/he died through non-natural means.)

Also, as far as legal status, a 40 day fetus is NOT a person. It is true that many hold that the laws about abortion don't apply before 40 days, but up to the time of childbirth, a living person's life is valued over the life of the fetus -- so if the mother's life is in danger, (or even if the mother is in danger of significant bodily/mental harm) she can abort/kill the baby up to either viability (without medical intervention) or actual childbirth (depending on your interpretations). So 40 days is a significant milestone, but not in any way determinative of legal/religious person-hood. (Though for other things a fetus does count as "life" -- e.g., you can violate Sabbath to save a fetus, but I believe there's some dispute over whether that's to save the fetus or to save the mother because childbirth is considered inherently life-threatening and one can violate the Sabbath to protect the mother from a life-threatening event -- even just to push it off.)

Re: fasting, I also believe that Orthodox Judaism says a pregnant woman does have to fast Tisha B'Av/Yom Kippur, unless there's significant risk of bodily injury. Not entirely clear that injury to the fetus would count, but again, since "injury" to the fetus would likely be miscarriage, and miscarriage is considered life-threatening to the mother, if there was a serious risk of miscarriage, the woman would be told not to fast.

Jul511riv, I would definitely ask a rabbi, but I would start with your history: "Rabbi, x months ago I had a miscarriage at x weeks pregnant. I have x medical issues. I am x weeks pregnant and I (and/or doctors -- easiest to just ask the doctor ahead of time if he thinks it's a good idea to fast and he'll clearly say no) believe that fasting 25 hours would put me at a serious risk of miscarriage. Given that, I believe I should not fast this Tisha B'Av. However, I was wondering whether there is anything I should do; i.e., fast till chatzos, only drink, etc."

I know for Yom Kippur, if there's a chance you won't make it through the fast, they say to start drinking/eating in shiurim from the very beginning of the fast, to make sure you never get to the point (or less likely to get to the point) where you need to actually "violate" the fast, but since there's no such concern with T'b'A, they might say to fast till chatzos. Also, I understand that if you're not fasting, you're supposed to refrain from delicacies -- eat only basics, no snacking, etc. (Unlike Y'K when you're supposed to be festive if you have to eat.)
post #22 of 46
Thread Starter 
Dov's Mom: welcome and thanks for your detailed responce, this is what I learned as well, on all accounts. I sent in a shaila to another rav I have consulted in the past but I haven't heard back so am thinking that I really need to contact my regular rav about it. I *know* that I cannot fast (and several doctors have all agreed that this is dangerous for me, even when I am not pregnant, though I have done it anyways, always knowing that I could break the fast if the red flags came up) but while pg and after a miscarriage, yeah, definately not. So i really need to sort that all out.

Anyways, it's nice to have such diverity in the group.

As far as the 40 days, perhaps you know something more about that. After the miscarriage, I got in to it a bit with my Rav but was so distraught, he basically steered the conversation away from it. My understanding was that it is about parts of the soul entering the guf (body) but perhaps you have some insight?

And ditto on basically everything, from teh mourning status (B"H I have not had to deal with this first hand, but this is what I remember learning, and am glad to not have to look it up right now, call it Jewish superstition/minhag...ug! lol.) to the rights of the mother over the rigths of the baby, etc...

Thanks for takign the time to put it all on the thread.
post #23 of 46
It's funny, I spent a lot of time (once upon a long time ago) reading about the halachot of fetuses, but I didn't spend nearly as much time thinking about the metaphysical aspect.

I do know that there's some respect for "potential life" and I think 40 days may be when that kicks in, but I am fairly certain that "life" as in "soul" (nefesh) doesn't kick in until actual birth -- either the head or the majority of the body. Maybe that's a reflection of some awareness of the statistics that we know about today, that 80% of conceptions spontaneously miscarry (mostly before anyone is aware of them) and that up to 25% miscarry after we're aware of them, but mostly within the very first weeks. Since a lot of pregnancy-related halacha is related to the chance of survival, if >50% of fetuses didn't survive past 40 days, then it would make sense that halacha would disregard them.

It's scary sometimes how much of medical halacha matches up well with science.
post #24 of 46
Thread Starter 
just an update about what my Rav (rabbi) said.

He said that because of my hypoglycemia, I should begin the fast and it would be best if I could continue on to the morning, but at the very first sign of trouble, such as dizziness, etc... I MUST drink with no restriction. Once you drink, you drink in any amount, unlike Yom Kippur where you would start with a very small amount (kzeit, I believe) and see if that isnt' enough and go on from there, only with a Rabbi's permission for your specific situation.

Anyways, he told me it is the same with eating. If I feel I must eat and it's absolutely necessary then I MUST eat.

He gave me a bracha that I should not need to eat or drink the entire fast, though.

I have a feeling Yom Kippur is going to have about the same leniency.

Better get my drink and eat on today. Wish me luck!!!
post #25 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by jul511riv View Post
just an update about what my Rav (rabbi) said.

He said that because of my hypoglycemia, I should begin the fast and it would be best if I could continue on to the morning, but at the very first sign of trouble, such as dizziness, etc... I MUST drink with no restriction. Once you drink, you drink in any amount, unlike Yom Kippur where you would start with a very small amount (kzeit, I believe) and see if that isnt' enough and go on from there, only with a Rabbi's permission for your specific situation.

Anyways, he told me it is the same with eating. If I feel I must eat and it's absolutely necessary then I MUST eat.

He gave me a bracha that I should not need to eat or drink the entire fast, though.

I have a feeling Yom Kippur is going to have about the same leniency.

Better get my drink and eat on today. Wish me luck!!!
With the only exception that for Y'K they will probably tell you to start drinking something nutritious (e.g. milk) in shiurim from the very beginning of the fast to decrease the likelihood that you do actually need to eat/drink in halachicly relevant amounts. Happened to me one pregnancy, and I will tell you, it feels WEIRD to be drinking half a shot glass full every five minutes starting at 8 PM when you're not the least bit hungry/thirsty on YOM KIPPUR! (I remember my mother doing this also when she was pregnant with twins in her seventh month over Y'K) Was also told to stay home from shul and minimize exertion.

Good luck! And healthy fasting!
post #26 of 46
Just curious - how long is this fast? I know as a Christian we are "excused" from fasting when pregnant or newly breastfeeding, and I used to work with a Muslim girl and I thought she said they were excused as well...I could be wrong though, that was several years ago we worked together.
post #27 of 46
This fast (and Yom Kippur which has similar rules) is about 25 hours -- from sundown tonight until an hour or so past sundown tomorrow.

Judaism has several "minor" fasts (usually sunrise to sundown) and two "major" fasts -- this and Yom Kippur. The rule for pregnant/nursing (at least through the first year) mothers with the minor fasts is that if they feel the slightest bit uncomfortable fasting, they don't have to (according to some rabbis, they don't even have to try). The major fasts are stricter, and everyone fasts unless there is a medical risk. If there is clear medical problem with fasting (for instance, my FIL is diabetic, and his blood sugar goes crazy if he doesn't eat specified amounts at specified times), then the person doesn't fast. If there is a potential medical risk (like Jul115riv's), then for this fast, one normally fasts as long as possible without causing any danger, and for Yom Kippur, one attempts to mitigate the risks by semi-fasting -- eating portions that are not considered eating for Jewish law. Of course, if the potential risk materializes (a pregnant woman at risk for dehydration starts to feel dizzy) then she can do whatever she needs to -- eat as much as she needs.
post #28 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleS View Post
Just curious - how long is this fast? I know as a Christian we are "excused" from fasting when pregnant or newly breastfeeding, and I used to work with a Muslim girl and I thought she said they were excused as well...I could be wrong though, that was several years ago we worked together.
Ditto what dov said, but just want to clarify that there are only 2 fasts a year of aprox 25 hours, this is today (well, today here in Israel already) which is Tisha B'Av and Yom Kippur. And fasting means no food OR drink (including water...even including brushing your teeth where water or toothpaste could be swallowed!!) So they are very serious fasts.

The Yom Kippur fast is the most serious in that it is a Torah commandment. This is also the most "joyous" day of the Jewish calendar, in that, through prayer, repentence, fasting, etc... we believe that HaShem (G-d) will forgive you for oaths you have taken and not fulfilled, for directly or indirectly going against Torah (Jewish Bible) commandments, etc... And when you are finished with this chag (holiday) you are renewed, like a clean slate, able to really turn over a new leaf with a full heart, etc... So it's actually a really happy, though somber...because there is lots of work and concentration to do...day.

Tisha B'Av is just a big bummer of a day. It's the day that the center for Jewish worship (the Holy Temple) was destroyed...not once...but TWICE! UG! It's just a crappy crappy day for Jews. When our center of worship was destroyed, Judaism was fractured with it. Jews were basically kicked out of their homeland and spread out all over the world to the tune of horrible pograms and discrimination...forced conversion...etc...ever since this point, Jews have been "wandering" as we were in the desert after our "escape" from Egypt. We feel this fracture all the time. The fact that we don't know our roots. The fact that traditions have been lost. It's really heavy. And it's a time for us to really reflect on this day and beg HaShem to return the Holy Temple to us, so that we can all be a united tribe, a united people again and worship in the way we said we would so many years ago, when we were first given our land. This is NOT a Torah commandment. It is a Rabbinically commanded fast. And I have to say that sitting here, fasting (without the restrictions of a chag or shabbat or Yom Kippur and able to use the computer, turn off and on lights, etc...) it's really a weird and unfulfilled feelign. Really drives the point home.

I went to services for a few minutes before my kids necessated my leaving (hey, they are 2 and 4 after all), but as soon as I sat down, it was like the ambience in the room (everyone is sitting on the floor, not in chairs, a sign of mourning) was like "HaShem...WHY are you doing this to us? Why are you continuing to deprive us of our birthright? Why are you making us wonder and have such confusion and infighting? When will this end? When will Peace come for us and for all the nations and all the people?" It's very sad. Just an immediate outpouring of my heart.

I really hope and pray that every minute of this fast that I am able to fast counts towards all the Jews everywhere who are not fasting, for whatever reason. Who are all lifting up their hearts in song, nonetheless, begging for World Peace. Begging for Love and Freedom and Brotherhood and Goodness, Fairness and Equality to reign. I'm dedicating every minute of my fast to that on behalf of every Jew who is not fasting. Hopefully in my merit and in the merit of all those fasting and ruminating and meditating and praying, all of us can come to this home.

Anyways, I'll check in tomorrow.
post #29 of 46
Jul511riv, how did it go for you?
post #30 of 46
Thread Starter 
Dov's: B"H I made it through the whole fast and then some. Hopefully this will go to a big merit for me and any others who need it.

How is yours going?
post #31 of 46
b"H, it went well. Except that I absolutelycollapsed as soon as it was over and made DH take care of getting e/o to bed, but that's fair, right? I mean, he doesn't have to do ANY of the caring for this new little one, right?

Just had my ultrasound, which puts my due date around 3/1/10, so I really oculd end up here. I figured it was around then based on when I was positive I ovulated, but I got a BFN as late as July 1st, and didnt' get a BFP until the 8th, so I tricked myself into thinking that I might have ovulated twice and really be due later in the month.
post #32 of 46
Thread Starter 
glad to hear you made it through.

Up next...Yom Kippur (oh yeah, and all that stuff UNTIL YK!!! )
post #33 of 46
Question for you guys.

Eating one's placenta (dehydrating and encapslating it)......would not be kosher correct? I have always thought this because of the blood issue. I realize there are probably different beliefs on this subject but I am very curios to hear your thoughts.

Thank you in advance.
post #34 of 46
Thread Starter 
Hadassah,

Glad to see this thread up and running again. I was just thinking about it.

Okay, so this is a GREAT BIG AYLR (ask your local rabbi) question, because it will depend on your specific situation.

On the surface, it seems like it would be a simple issue...eating something from a non kosher animal (human) is forbidden...except in the case of honey. There might be another thing that I am missing here. But breastmilk, obviously, is THE PREFERRED food in Judaism in MOST cases, and this is also from a "non kosher animal" (even though most religious authorities hold that we are not "animals") so immediately you would see that this is more complex and not so simple.

I have heard of several rulings that have permitted women to eat their own placentas as an issue of pikuat nefesh (saving a life), because of it's proven properties to combat post-pardum depression. Of course, your local rabbi would need to be educated about this usage, so you would need to either find an expert in the field or find one who is willing to read some of the reseach that you and your practitioners complile for him on the subject. In this case, it is preserving the life/health of the mother and by extention the baby as well so it has been permitted.

I've heard of it being not permitted because it is like eating an animal while it is still alive, which is forbidden.

I've heard of the blood issue being averted because A. it's not from a kosher animal anyways, so the rules are different and B. you can prepare it like liver (i.e. chicken liver) in a kosher way which would get rid of the blood issue.

I've heard of it being allowed so long as there is not a "taste" (like swallowing pills, if it's not a "food" then it isn't considered a food and rather a trufah (remedy/medicine) and so if you just swallow it you can take it. This ruling has been used for other things, like animal thyroid from non kosher animals, as well.)

So, it would depend on your particular situation and your particular reason for eating it and your own personal rabbi would need to make the ruling.

Also interesting to note is that the Jewish custom for organs or other human body parts is to bury them (that is the halacha). Some rabbis have ruled that this applies to the placenta as well (though many have not gone so far to make this ruling) but that is something else to think about, as well. Aparently there was a custom in some Jewish communities of burying the placenta and planting a tree above it...that tree would grow and become part of the chuppah (wedding canopy...the poles that hold it, for example) for the son or daughter for whom the tree was planted. A nice custom, dontcha think?

I, personally, bury mine. I have burried each placenta in the yard where we were living at the time (actually my dh did the burrying), except in the case of my miscarriage, where everything was too small to sort out and it all, basically, went down the toilet.

I intend to bury the forthcoming placenta in our yard here, as well. Perhaps under an already planted tree (we had two planted when we moved in). It makes me feel like we are tied to each place we lived in with the kids...even though we are STILL renting and have had to move (and will again).

hth.
post #35 of 46
Such facinating information on the placenta! thank you so much for sharing. I have never eaten mine but I find it so interesting that it is very helpful to people that do eat theirs. I grew up on a farm and our goats and sheep always ate theirs as soon as they gave birth. I have always wanted to plant mine and plant a tree over it, I have never done this because I have wanted to do it when we know we are staying put for a long while. so I have 3, I think, in my freezer, which just plain feel weird to me. hmmm......

So if one plants their placenta and plants a fruit tree would the fruit be forbidden since the tree got nutrients from the placenta?

I would love to poke my local Rabbi's brain about this.
post #36 of 46
Thread Starter 
no the fruit would not be forbidden by any ruling that I am aware of. Please DO pick your local rabbi's brain about it. I recommend contacting your local Chabad House. Just do a google search. But I think either www.chabad.com or www.chabad.org should have a link to local chabad houses.

The tree and fruit, of course, would be subject to any other rules and regulations of kashrut (some only applying to those living in Israel, some only if the owner is a halachic Jew, etc...) Unfortunately, I just don't know enough about the rules in Chul (outside of Israel) to comment on that any further. I guess that is something I should be learning.

How is everyone doing? How many of us are waiting for baby? How are we all doing on names?
post #37 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by jul511riv View Post
Aparently there was a custom in some Jewish communities of burying the placenta and planting a tree above it...that tree would grow and become part of the chuppah (wedding canopy...the poles that hold it, for example) for the son or daughter for whom the tree was planted. A nice custom, dontcha think?
Apparently I'm still subbed to this thread from way back when....but I wanted to say that I love this! Though I'd be heartbroken if we did that and then had to move or something and leave the tree behind...
post #38 of 46
Thread Starter 
Hey Nicole. I have to admit I'm a bit sad to be hearing from you...I was hoping you were off giving birth somewhere. Then again, I'm sorry that I'm responding to you cause I also hoped I would be off giving birth somewhere, too. lol.

Anyways, Yeah, TOTALLY! It would be so sad, right? We burried dd's placenta in California under a tree in our apartment complex's yard...I don't remember which kind of tree it was, now, but I'm guessing it was a pine.

And we burried our son's placenta in the last place we lived, a few hours away...we HEARD that the apartment complex was going to cut down the tree, which I think was also a pine or something...but we went back once to see it and it was still there.

Right now I've got two trees, I have no idea what they are, in the yard and we'll probably bury under there. But, yeah, if I had the intention to use the tree for something down the line I'd have been so sad. Now I feel like, the placentas have been burried for YEARS and are very likely all broken down by now. They fed the earth and fed the trees and there is a light spiritual imprint there of each child from the time we lived there and that is enough for me. It'll have to be since we don't have a home of our own...

Anyways, this upcoming shabbat is
1. Shabbat (sabbath)
2. Tu Bishvat (the new year of the trees/tree birthday)
3. Full Moon

Sounds to me like a good time/week to birth, b'h!!!!
post #39 of 46
That would be Saturday the 30th for you, yes? Too late for me at that point, since I'm scheduled for the induction Friday morning, but sounds promising for you!
post #40 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleS View Post
That would be Saturday the 30th for you, yes? Too late for me at that point, since I'm scheduled for the induction Friday morning, but sounds promising for you!
Friday at sundown till Saturday at sundown. B"H. I'd sure like to go before then, though. Just had an apt with the mw...ehh. I'm measuring 40 weeks...but, like, just no sign of ANYTHING out of the ordinary. I'm totally trying to will my mucous plug to fall out everytime I use the toilet.

Are you really having your induction this Friday?! That is SOOOO close!!!! I don't even feel sorry for you anymore, Nicole. lol. Worse case senerio, you've only got a few more DAYS!!!! This could go on for weeks for me...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: February 2010