Talk to me about child abuse.

[VisionaryMom]

I'm struggling significantly with this issue. I was sexually abused over a period of time. Despite telling mandated reporters and my family, I was left in that situation. I'm finally (!) really starting to deal with this, but it's shaking the foundation of my religious beliefs. I've always identified as Christian. I go to a UU church; I've never found a denomination that felt right - mostly because my uber-left politics don't mix with any denomination near us. But why would God allow child abuse? I'm sure this seems like a basic question. I know I've seen it other places, but I want a real person answer, even if it's that you don't know. Why? And how can I reconcile the idea of a perfect God with a God who permits such atrocities?

[lilyka]

lots of bad thing happen. I was abused (physically, sexually, emotionally, verbally) and neglected as a child. it was actually the single most influential thing that drew me to Christ. I needed to be healed. One of my favorite verses is this one:

John 9:1-3 (New International Version)

John 9
Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind
1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.

so many times in my life the only thing I could make of it is that this or that has happened that the work of God may be revealed in my life. and that it is to draw me closer to him. I guess I have never expected God to take away suffering or protect us from it. that left with the garden. we have what we have and no matter how bad I have had there are those who have it much worse. The question is, when these thing happen, who is God to us then?

[battymama]

Not Christian here, but my personal take on it is that the Godess (over soul) doesnt allow it, humans are the ones that allow it. My thinking is that we have free choice, which is a very very good thing, but we have free choice to do both good and bad thhings. She may provide us with guidance- that to me is the little voice you hear- sometimes she might throw obstacles in our way, but ultimatly we have to be the ones to choose.

I am sorry you went through that, i hope you get the answers you are looking for. It is something i have struggled with myself. Sorry for typing Naking a toddler, its like trying to breastfeed an octopus at times.

[cappuccinosmom]

I wasn't going to post because I haven't suffered that specific trauma. But I see only a two have replied yet.



There are so many horrendous things that happen in this world. Child abuse is one of them. The answer to the "Why" is multifaceted and sometimes it includes "We can't know".

It started with the garden and with sin. For God to allow us choice means that he allows us to make bad choices as well. And our choices, good and bad, affect others. God could remove choice. Or he could suspend the laws of nature to supernaturally stop every single bad choice from coming to pass. It seems like it would be easier if he just removed choice and thus removed all the struggle. But where I am now, I like the choices I have. Having choice, I wouldn't want an existence without it. Physically stopping every single bad choice from coming to pass would leave the world in a permanent state of chaos, and that would also affect others. :

I wish there was an easy, satisfying answer.

[genifer]

Brandi, I dont know. I have an idea, and its similar to whats already been said but i dont know if it will satisfy you. I do know that there have been a lot of questions like this on here lately. The 'why' questions. I think humanity i SO messed up. Why did God allow this, any of it to happen. I think its to do with free will but at the same time, there's a LOT more to it that I dont understand. I know that in all this God will be glorified, this I believe. And I believe this is what its all about... even if I dont understand how. Another answer that isnt satisfactory for lots of people. There are times when I see things very clearly. In that there are times when I am giddy with excitement about it, there are times when I hate it and really wrestle with it. And every other emotion in between. I dont know about you, but I know I know God. I know that in His grand scheme of things He is able to work it all out for good. Which to me, considering all we are talking about, is amazing. Ive been thinking about all these questions that have come up on here and have thought about the fact, that as far as Im concerned and what I believe to be true, we want heaven now and God has decreed that now isnt the time for us to enjoy heaven, we have to pass thru this life first. And, again I believe this is truth, we have to pass thru Christ to enter heaven. That isnt going to answer your questions but I do pray God can give you some answers thru what you've faced, despite all you've faced. That you can know joy, peace, love, and learn thru them, and despite them. I do know that, as some one said somewhere else, like Job, God doesnt always give the answers we want, or any answers at all. But like Job, he can give peace anyway, and bless you anyway. Often we want the answers and reject the peace. Ive come to a place where I dont, personally need all the answers, His peace IS good enough. Im not in any way trying to minimize what you're feeling, at all. But I wanted to answer, even if it is the i dont know. I know that you can recieve comfort from God. I know this bc Ive recieved it. It comes when I ask for it, often after wrestling for sometime about it, or even after refusing to accept it. I give in and say 'Ill have that peace, that comfort even tho I dont understand this. Id rather have that if you wont give me the answers, Ill take the peace.' I do hope this helps, but I dont know if it will.

editing to add this... I mentioned suffering. and having to pass thru this life before enjoying heaven. I also know that when we get there, what we enjoy as far as heaven is concerned wont compare to any kind of suffering we face here. This hope that I have, Im certain of. I know others are ok with not knowing or believing heaven isnt real, but Im certain of it and I dont know how people are ok without knowing or having that certainty but as far as Im concerned, I know that what I face in this life, all the trials and difficulties, abuses, they will not compare to what heaven has in store.

[Valkyrie9]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

Physically stopping every single bad choice from coming to pass would leave the world in a permanent state of chaos, and that would also affect others. :

(

I'm not sure I understand why that would bring chaos? Also, why not restore humankind to the state of perfection Adam & Eve had pre-Tree of Knowledge?

[Sarai18]

Originally Posted by BrandiRhoades

I'm sure this seems like a basic question. I know I've seen it other places, but I want a real person answer, even if it's that you don't know. Why? And how can I reconcile the idea of a perfect God with a God who permits such atrocities?

I don't know why. And honestly, I don't think any of us ever will. The best thoughts I've read on the topic of suffering in general are by Philip Yancey in Where is God When It Hurts. One thing I remember from his writings is that instead of asking "why?" a better question would be "to what end?" - basically, instead of looking back it's more helpful to look forward to what I can learn and how I can grow from this experience.

[genifer]

Philip Yancey is one of my favourite authors, funnily enough I hadnt read that book, my favourite of his is Soul Survivor (about surviving the church, how his faith survived)

[LionTigerBear]

I also was abused as a child. I am so sorry for your pain and suffering.

I believe that God gave human beings free choice. He gave us the power to hurt each other, and knew that some of us would. But he promised us that we never had to be spiritually alone as we endured these trials.

I see this earth as just one tiny fraction of our total eternal life. This earth is a sort of proving ground, to separate people, and to see who will choose and seek out good when they have any choice in the world open to them. Jesus said that those who hurt little children would be better off with a millstone around their neck at the bottom of the ocean, and I know that there will be eternal consequences for our choices.

Beyond that, I just have to trust that God knows how to impart the perfect blend of mercy and justice to make everything okay in the end. But this is not the end, and so, everything isn't okay yet . . . so while we are here on earth it is our job to try to do as much good and prevent as much suffering as we can. Right now, we are God's hands on earth.

[cappuccinosmom]

I'm not sure I understand why that would bring chaos?

To physically stop every person intent on carrying out some evil would require a constant suspension of the laws of nature.

Even if he just zapped them with lightning, in many cases that would still result in problems for others, because what happens to one individual rarely affects just that person, even if we're just talking about physical stuff.

[zech13_9_goforgold]

In order to wipe out sin, God would have to wipe out every person on earth. The Bible tells us that there is not one person who is perfect, we all rebel against God. As humans, we like to put degrees to peoples' sins; we like to say that a lie isn't as bad as sexually abusing someone. In God's eyes, there is no distinction. God is perfect, and because of that perfection, He cannot tollerate any sin. In His eyes, a lie is equal to murder, which is also equal to sexual abuse. The only way for God to deal with mankind's evil is to get rid of the source of that evil- us.

We deserve to be eleminated; we deserve to be separated for God forever. Romans 6:23 tells us that the "wages of sin is death...," which means that through our lying or abuse, we have earned for ourself death. Being with God is eternal life; being separated from God is eternal death. God could have wiped out all mankind, for that would have been just, but he chose a different solution.

The same verse finishes by saying, "...but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." The opposite of wages is a gift. When we had earned eternal death, God gave us the gift of His son, Jesus. Since "the wages of sin is death," Jesus, who, as God-in-the-flesh, had never sinned (lied, murdered, abused....), took the "wages" of mankind on Himself at the cross. Jesus did not die as a mislead prophet on a cross; He died as the sacrifice for mankind. His death was a gift od forgiveness to sinful mankind.

The Bible also says that by God raising Jesus from the dead, Jesus became the first of all those who will be raised from the dead. So, you, me, your abuser, all of mankind has a choice to make. We can continue as we are, doing what pleases us and refusing the gift that Jesus offers, or we can take the gift of eternal life and forgiveness of sins that Jesus is offering us. The first choice, which is the defult position of mankind, leads from natural death to eternal death. The second choice, which involves believing in your heart that Jesus is who He says He is- God and a sacrifice for our sins, leads from natural death to eternal death.

All of "Man is destined to die once, and after that comes the judgement (Hebrews 9:27)." Your deadline is your death date. At that moment, your eternal home is decided. There is no second chance. There is no appeal process when you stand before God, the Judge of all mankind. God will do something about the sin that seems to run unchecked on the earth, but please don't assume that because you we're sinned against that you will not be held accountable for your own sins. You, and the person who abused you, both need to find and accept the gift of forgiveness that God offers to you today.

If you would like more information about anything I've written here, you can call, 888-NEED-HIM.

"For the wages (payment) of sin (everything that goes against the nature of God) is (eternal) death, but the gift (freely given) of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." -Romans 6:23

[LionTigerBear]

My understanding is that there is no debate allowed in the Spirituality forum, but I hope it is okay for me to simply say, that I do not believe that all sin is equal and I don't believe that the Bible supports that idea. I do think that God especially hates child abuse and that there are more than just two simple outcomes in the life to come. I do believe that judgment will be a more intricate, thoughtful, and just process than that.

[Valkyrie9]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

To physically stop every person intent on carrying out some evil would require a constant suspension of the laws of nature.

Even if he just zapped them with lightning, in many cases that would still result in problems for others, because what happens to one individual rarely affects just that person, even if we're just talking about physical stuff.

Oh, I see. I was thinking more that God could spiritually stop someone with bad intent, if it was his desire/will to do so. He could give them a change of heart, as it were.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by zech13_9_goforgold

In order to wipe out sin, God would have to wipe out every person on earth. The Bible tells us that there is not one person who is perfect, we all rebel against God. As humans, we like to put degrees to peoples' sins; we like to say that a lie isn't as bad as sexually abusing someone. In God's eyes, there is no distinction. God is perfect, and because of that perfection, He cannot tollerate any sin. In His eyes, a lie is equal to murder, which is also equal to sexual abuse. The only way for God to deal with mankind's evil is to get rid of the source of that evil- us.

I grew up with this theology, and I rejected it fairly early in life. Now, as adult I cannot view all sins as equal. They simply are not. I'm not a Biblical literalist, which gives me the theological latitude to come to that place on my own after a lot of searching and praying. Seeing the consequences of some sins - yes, the sexual abuse of children being one of them - convinces me that some bad things are worse than others. If I lie to my mother and say I can't talk when I can, that's wrong, but there's no harm done to her from that. Being raped repeatedly as a child has altered my entire perception of sexuality, life, parenthood. There's a lasting consequence that I face and that my husband and children (among others) will feel as well because of what happened to me.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by lilyka

so many times in my life the only thing I could make of it is that this or that has happened that the work of God may be revealed in my life.

This is where I've been since around the age of 14. I've felt that the things that happened to me were meant to be part of what I was supposed to do - part of some bigger plan I didn't yet see. I think the problem I'm facing now is that I'm 29 and still not seeing that plan. I'm still uncovering some issues I hadn't considered before. Beyond the direct sexual abuse, I now realize I grew up in a largely covertly incestuous family. Things that I grew up believing were normal - such as no body privacy, children and adults sleeping in beds together long past legitimate co-sleeping - apparently were not. It feels as if suddenly I'm awakened to the fact that my entire existence was based on the manipulation of abuse. And where was God in that?

I talked to some people last night about this issue, not in terms of abuse but in terms of our lives in general. I know that I've always had trouble with the idea of handing over worries to God. I've always struggled with the idea of prayer as sacred and necessary. I need/want to know how I'm supposed to use what happened to me to help others. I truly believe that's its purpose, but I'm just not sure how to begin/where to go. I hate things that require patience of me.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by LionTigerBear

My understanding is that there is no debate allowed in the Spirituality forum, but I hope it is okay for me to simply say, that I do not believe that all sin is equal and I don't believe that the Bible supports that idea. I do think that God especially hates child abuse and that there are more than just two simple outcomes in the life to come. I do believe that judgment will be a more intricate, thoughtful, and just process than that.

not being snarky and this may be veering off topic but why is child abuse so much worse than any time someone hurts someone else? Are we all not equal in Gods eyes, loved and cherished by Him, all deserving as much as the next (regardless of age, race, gender) to be treated gently with love and respect free of abuse from others?

I was sexually abused as a child but I can tell you it did not mess me up nbearly as bad as my husbands adultry and sexual unfaithfulness and how he used me during that time. People just automatically assume that any issues I have stem from the child abuse but I have far more issues from what my husband did to me (for many reasons).

Also I was thinking about the original post more last night. Going back to the whole train wreck with my former husband....when it all started I was praying one night and God spoke to me (or called to mind or whatever) and said "whats the worst that can happen in your life......and what if that does happen? what then? who will I be? will I still be God of the universe? worthy of your praise? will anything change between you and me if I stop protecting you from this? withdraw my blessing? consider Job. consider the saints. consider my son. who will I be to you then? " I said "you will still be God and weather you bless me or not you are still worthy of my devotion and all praise" and then he said "hold on to me. do not look right or left or up or down. just hold on to me tight." a month later the bomb dropped and spun into 5 years of absolute insanity. Suffering is not the issue. we are in a sick, fallen world. Suffering is part of being sick and dying. and that is what we do. from the day we are concieved we are a breath away from death. the question is, as we live this life diseased with sin who is God to us? is his worthiness based on how little we suffer? or will we praise him regardless of it? Is our willing to praise him tied only to how much he is willing to bless us? or will we praise him even if we never see a single blessing? Do we praise him because he is good to us or just because HE IS.

And really considering we are suffering from the disease of sin a better question might be why isn't there more suffering.

and going back to Job, God responded (major paraphrasing here) that why was not the issue. I highly recommend you read it. paying attention especially to the end. it is so beautiful and full of love and hope. God is so big and as Christians we are heirs to all of that but loving God is so much more than loving him when things are good. When nothing bad has happened to us. I look back at my life, the things I have suffered, things that have pushed me so far I wanted to end my life, and when I see where those things have brought me I feel blessed. blessings I would have never seen had I never known suffering. It is so hard to explain. its like being beat to a bloody pulp and surving it and thinking "huh, I was strong enough to get through that. who knew." I am explaining this badly. but at times it feels like a gift to have gone through so much. like I have a piece of God alive in me I wouldn't have had otherwise. I think of the martyrs. they way they faced horrific deaths with peace and smiles knowing that they were achieving the crown of martyrdom. They knew it would hurt for a while but that in the end it was a gift to lay down your life for Christ.

God can use these things to bring you to a new place with Him. but you have to let Him. Things happen because there is no reason for them not to happen. this is a world of death and pain. we had a garden, we had lives of freedom lived in the glorious presence of God where there was no sin. no pain, no death. we traded that in for this life. people will get hurt. people will hurt others. and we will just have to take it one day at a time, both the hurt and the hurters striving to get closer to God, to his holiness, struggeling to repent and not let our sins or the sins of others stand in our way another day. each day one step closer.

[LionTigerBear]

Originally Posted by lilyka

not being snarky and this may be veering off topic but why is child abuse so much worse than any time someone hurts someone else? Are we all not equal in Gods eyes, loved and cherished by Him, all deserving as much as the next (regardless of age, race, gender) to be treated gently with love and respect free of abuse from others?

I don't want to get into even a friendly debate here since it's not the Religious Studies forum . . . so just very briefly . . . we know that God does not see all sins as equal because He Himself discriminates between different sins in the Bible. Certainly, all of them remove us from God's presence and require an atonement, but some He "hates" more than others. Of course, He doesn't want us to hurt anyone, ever, but there's a difference between hurting another adult out of severe provocation, and hurting someone who is solely dependent on you, who loves and adores you and would never do you wrong.

[VisionaryMom]

Originally Posted by LionTigerBear

I don't want to get into even a friendly debate here since it's not the Religious Studies forum

Debate away. We're in religious studies. I would like to see many views on this topic - non-Christian as well since I'm familiar with the more evangelical/fundamentalist view.

[chaoticzenmom]

I'm not Christian either, but whenever I hear this question, I always think about a philosophy class that I had. One question that we had to think about was "Can there be good without evil?" Can good only be as good as bad is bad? If nothing bad ever happened, would the world be a good place? I don't now those answers of course, but it's something to consider.

I also believe that people have free-will. It sometimes feels like things are destiny, but that's just what we tell ourselves...we were "destined" to be with the person we love. We were "destined" to go to the store at exactly that time. People like that game and like to feel like they're important enough to have a pre-planned destiny. I don't think that anything is destiny. We can learn from bad things and be grateful for the lessons learned and the new perspective though. Can you think of nothing good that came from your abuse? Can you imagine a person who's never ever had pain in their life? What would this person be like? What would this person know? How would this person relate to other people? Would you really rather be that person?

[LionTigerBear]

Originally Posted by BrandiRhoades

Debate away. We're in religious studies. I would like to see many views on this topic - non-Christian as well since I'm familiar with the more evangelical/fundamentalist view.

Oh, they moved the thread! Okay, I'll be back after I get the kids in bed.