never felt this strongly before - close to slapping my child

[rainy32]

All - I have a four 1/2 year old boy. he is lovely and wonderful. except for between the hours of 11 and 1. i am sure it is hunger related. i am sure it is a need to get out of the house on both of our parts.

but knowing that right now is not helping me. we are ABSOLUTELY gentle discipline parents - natural consequences, no physical or emotional abuse, talking it out . ... etc.

this is NOT working, lately, though (only with me - he's not disrespectful towards his dad or his grandma or temporary caregivers on teh odd occasion he has them).

this morning, he has been disrespectful. when i told him he needed to go to his room for a break, he refused. when i picked him up to carry him there, he bit me. i've carried him back and forth 5 or 6 times now, with him hitting, kicking, biting. i've tried to sit in there with him, i've tried to walk away, i've tried throwing water on him (my mom used to do that - i've never done it before - i will never do it again). i've tried taking his property as a consequence for disrespect.

he laughs. and keeps coming back for more.

i think he wants attention. i am a college teacher - i am home iwth him all summer bull-time, but i do need to attend to emails and phone calls occasionally and this morning has been busy.

i find myself threatening him with daycare! i find myself threatening him with a slap across the face.

these are empty threats because i won't do either of them.

i am at the end of my rope this morning. we were having a lovely morning -- breakfast picnic outside, played with him, baked banana bread. then 11:00 rolls around and BAM he's disrespectful and uncompromising.

hugs welcome. advice even more welcome.

[Gentle~Mommy :)]

What? you threw water on him?

I hear you, I have 2 boys who collaberate and push my buttons in a team effort, I understand how frustrating it can be. *hugs*

[Anastasiya]

... oops - didn't read OP correctly.

[sparklefairy]

The disrespect and outright defiance gets me every time! Especially from my son -- I feel such an immediate need to make him stop and never doing it again, see visions of him mistreating women. It feels like in that moment, there needs to be someone else to step in -- but there's no one, as I am a single mom.

In your case, maybe try making the goal to get out of the house by 10:30? To offer an more protein-rich breakfast and have something else ready to feed him by 11?

It seems that what you have is a power struggle and when you try to take control, he calls your bluff and then you got nothin'. Or maybe I'm projecting I'm always striving to find ways to disengage.

Originally Posted by rainy32

All - I have a four 1/2 year old boy. he is lovely and wonderful. except for between the hours of 11 and 1. i am sure it is hunger related. i am sure it is a need to get out of the house on both of our parts.

but knowing that right now is not helping me. we are ABSOLUTELY gentle discipline parents - natural consequences, no physical or emotional abuse, talking it out . ... etc.

this is NOT working, lately, though (only with me - he's not disrespectful towards his dad or his grandma or temporary caregivers on teh odd occasion he has them).

this morning, he has been disrespectful. when i told him he needed to go to his room for a break, he refused. when i picked him up to carry him there, he bit me. i've carried him back and forth 5 or 6 times now, with him hitting, kicking, biting. i've tried to sit in there with him, i've tried to walk away, i've tried throwing water on him (my mom used to do that - i've never done it before - i will never do it again). i've tried taking his property as a consequence for disrespect.

he laughs. and keeps coming back for more.

i think he wants attention. i am a college teacher - i am home iwth him all summer bull-time, but i do need to attend to emails and phone calls occasionally and this morning has been busy.

i find myself threatening him with daycare! i find myself threatening him with a slap across the face.

these are empty threats because i won't do either of them.

i am at the end of my rope this morning. we were having a lovely morning -- breakfast picnic outside, played with him, baked banana bread. then 11:00 rolls around and BAM he's disrespectful and uncompromising.

hugs welcome. advice even more welcome.

[j924]

Has he recently given up a nap? It sounds like you know that it is hunger and fatigue. Could he cuddle up with a book or a movie and a high protein snack during this time? Maybe make a little oasis in the corner of a room just for him and just for this time. Or another thought maybe during the good times you are trying to do too much and by 11 he's overwhelmed. Maybe try a boring morning and head out (with a snack/picnic) during the rough times.

[A&A]

Make sure he's getting enough sleep (at LEAST 10 hours per day.) Make sure he's getting enough exercise.

Also it sounds like he's not getting enough protein at breakfast. Perhaps try scrambled eggs and whole wheat toast--something that will stick in his stomach for longer.

My ds has hunger-related meltdowns and I really can't blame him. He's a different child when he's not hungry. You're taking this way too personally.

[Meems]

It sounds like you are both getting extremely upset and feeding off of each other. When I start feeling frustrated, angry, etc. I tell my DD that and ask her how we can work things out. For you, it may mean that you give yourself a time out. It is not good for your child to see you get so upset that you are threatening, etc. Remember how young your child is.

I agree w/ PP that being away from home at that hour is important. And be SURE to have snacks

My DD has a rough time almost every day at 5pm. If i have a snack and distraction on hand, things are great.

Good luck!

[rainy32]

thank you all!!

yes ... lol, and shameful ... i threw water on him. NOT my finest moment.

everyone who suggests that it is a power struggle is absolutely right!! and, sparklefairy, I do imagine him, as a grown up man, treating a woman with disrespect and it just angers me, pushes my buttons!

everyone is also absolutely right about protein, nap, and more exercise in the middle of the morning. he HATES to go out - he really is a homebody - but I notice that on days we get moving, he's in a better mood; and, on days that he interacts with other kids, his mood is better too ....

so, tomorrow at 11 -- us in the car or on a walk with cheese sticks in hand ;-)

i also realize that I only loose my cool when this happens on days that are going so well -- it hits me out of the blue and I don't react well to his sudden change in temperment. if he's already cranky, I can roll with that, but a new, out-of-the-blue bad mood pushes my buttons.

thanks for the reminder, too, that he is SO young. He's so verbal and precocious and able to converse that I often treat him more like he is 8 than 4 1/2. He's still a SMALL small boy.

thanks.

[LuxPerpetua]

to you!

I absolutely agree with everyone about the need for more protein, a more restful morning routine (save the more involved outings or projects for after lunch), more sleep if possible, etc. With that said, it may be helpful to reorient your approach (kind of like, stepping outside the box to rethink the box idea entirely). We practice consensual living so one of the first things I noticed in your first post was the portion where your son needed a break so you were physically removing him to his room. I can see how this would cause an angry response from his perspective: he's hungry, he's had a busy morning, he's not feeling right and is acting out, and mom says she wants him to go away and then picks him up and makes it happen. There's a certain feeling of frustration and powerlessness that comes with that. I'm by no means saying that his response was "right" or that yours was "wrong," but rather I can see how your action would cause the scene to escalate. Is it possible to next time answer the power struggle by removing yourself instead of him? You could explain that you aren't feeling right and need a minute alone and then go to your room or go outside for a few minutes. I am only suggesting this because I think you'll have less issues with power struggles and the negativity involved if you focus more on allowing his autonomy. For instance, if a situation isn't working, instead of trying to get him to change to make it work, focus on what you can change. And definitely try having a small snack in between breakfast and lunch or having lunch earlier. Maybe that will help tide him over!

Again, big !

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Agree with all of the above, especially snack and earlier lunch.

In addition to all of the above, sometimes a major new routine, even for a week, is a good "reset" button when we get into negative patterns. Its more than 1/2 way through the summer -- maybe a 1/2 day day camp or summer activity would be a great way to refocus and give everyone a break. Morning swim lessons? Or a mommy & me music class? Something that would force you to completely change the routine and focus of the morning, preferably getting you both out of the house, or giving you a break to get your work done while he is doing something else.

[LynnS6]

Two additions to the advice you've already gotten:

I'm working hard on removing myself when I'm at my wits' end. I broke our broom the other day because I was pounding it into the floor because I was so mad at dd. (What I REALLY wanted to do was to whack her with the broom, so pounding it into the floor was the 'safer' alternative.) I should have simply gone to my room and left it there. Short of locking dd in her room, I can't get her to stay there. So, if I need separation, I have to be the one to separate. I figure it's modeling good coping.

The second thing is to read "Kids, Parents & Power Struggles" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka. It's a good overall book, and I do believe 4 year olds feature prominently there!

[Meems]

I second "kids, parents and power struggles" excellent book.

[rainy32]

I keep loosing my (long!) response to this wonderful advice.... this is a test post, if it works, i'll reply again.

[rainy32]

OK - trying to post again, lol

Thank you all for your responses. Our field trip for today (10 - 1 or so!) the public library for kids, parents, and power struggles -- and a walk through the park between the library and the best vegan peanut butter cookies in town at our favorite coffee shop....

3 things I want to bounce off of this group:

1. I think I'm the bored, tired, and hungry one at 11am! DS doesn't get up until 9 or so, has a small breakfast at 9:30/10:00, and wants to play on his own and color for an hour or two before engaging me. So, by the time he's ready to play and eat and hang out with me, I've been up for 5 or 6 hours, have likely only had coffee, and have been working nearly the entire time. So I'm feeling antsy, and he's still getting into his groove...

2. I agree, LuxP., and others who have said it, that I should remove myself rather than remove him! The problem is, he follows me -- so I'm trying to take a break outside or in my room, and he is pounding on the door, or laying there crying cause I'm ignoring him, or yelling at me, or trying to be funny .... so I feel harassed during the "break" and when I return from it, we start the cycle all over again.

3. Except -- a couple of days ago, I went outside to breathe and count to 10, and when I came back, he was hiding under the dining room table (I had told him to go to his room) -- I had the prescence of mind to pretend we were really playing a game of hide and seek, and I looked all over the house for him, and pretended to be VERY surprised when he came out from under the table -- we both laughed and laughed and it completely changed the mood in the house.

Yesterday, he tried it, I see now, by hiding behind the couch -- but I was 1) too angry to treat it like a game, and 2) worried that he'd think he could always get out of tough situations by using humor. Silly me!! Humor is a wonderful way to diffuse a situation, and I'm blessed to have a child that knows it.

So all of this makes me think that at around 11, he's ready for some physical, goofy, hands-on, full-attention from me, play.
And I'm ready to get out of the house .... water balloon fight in the backyard anyone?? trip to the park?

(And, what a great idea to shake the schedule up -- in fact, the day before yesterday we signed him up for swimming lessons that start next week, 10:15 - 11:00 every day!).

thanks so much, all, for your feedback; I'd love to hear your thoughts on these points, too.

[phathui5]

i think he wants attention. i am a college teacher - i am home iwth him all summer bull-time, but i do need to attend to emails and phone calls occasionally and this morning has been busy.

I'd recommend making that a scheduled time of day so that he can know when you're available and when you're not. And make sure you set him up with something to do before your "work time."

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

Originally Posted by rainy32

So, by the time he's ready to play and eat and hang out with me, I've been up for 5 or 6 hours, have likely only had coffee, and have been working nearly the entire time.

You know the line when you are on an airplane about putting on your own mask first so you can then help others? You can't help others if *you* pass out due to lack of oxygen. EAT BREAKFAST!!! You cannot care for others if you don't care for yourself. Plus you are setting a bad example by neglecting yourself.

[FeingoldMomma]

1) Eat a protein rich breakfast before you get him up, that way it has time to start working on your brain and body. The worst arguments in our family usually have "low or no fuel" as the deep down reason.

2) Read Mary Sheedy Kurcinka's excellent book Raising Your Spirited Child... especially the part about Recharging your batteries. Sounds like that's what your son is doing instinctively... making sure his internal battery is ready for the day by getting that quiet time before he starts playing. I have to get a new copy, since we gave our copy to some friends of ours. It's excellent, and it's helped in so many ways.

3) Come up with a code that's easy to remember, that allows anyone in the family (including your wee son) to say that tensions are getting too high and intense and it's time to back off for a minute. In our house (and we've been using this for years), it's "What do you want on your pizza?" and it relates to a story from DH's college days. It's very effective, because it's the cue that we've gone too far - especially easy in the when going loggerheads with the teen-ager when he's had food that he shouldn't have. If anyone says it, we all stop and take a minute, and then name some off the wall topping (very often followed by laughter). If we resume the discussion, it's with much cooler heads and tempers. So come up with something easy for your little guy so he can let you know and you can let him know if things are getting too heated.

[keilonwy]

Originally Posted by FeingoldMomma

In our house (and we've been using this for years), it's "What do you want on your pizza?"

In our South Park watching house it's "YOU'RE a towel!" said in a funny, high-pitched voice. The response, then, is, "No, I'm a mommy who needs a nap. You're a towel." "No, I'm a husband who is trying to understand why my wife is so upset. You're a towel." It's nice to have a safe way to state what it is that you're trying to do in a situation that's getting heated, and really nice to have a funny, enjoyable way to get to say "this is becoming too much."

[Past_VNE]

Great thread...thanks for all the advice. Food is something that we need to remember in regards to behavior around here. We tend to eat as a last resort because we are so busy playing, working on the farm, etc. We don't eat until we're starving and I think that's the cause of a lot of our melt downs.

[MamaKickyPants]

Sounds like you've gotten some great advice and are implementing some really effective solutions. I just wanted to chime and and suggest you read 'Playful Parenting' By Lawrence Cohen, if you haven't already! You seem to be drawn to this type of parenting anyways - the situation where you turned your DS hiding under the table into a game and it totally changed the situation, that's EXACTLY playful parenting!